Netjets New Payscale

[dsptchrnja]

Who gives a SH1t if the company is profitable or not.

The pilots cost X amount of dollars. That's the cost of doing business. We want our X amount of dollars. The company can figure out how to pay for it.

Did you tell the company that in your interview? Or did you change your mind after you agreed to work for X amount of dollars?

 

[FAcFriend]

You are absolutley correct about the company spinning and having an agenda. You are also correct about the Union having an agenda, however, its agenda is the mandate given it by the Member/Pilots.


x- This is right out of the pilot union hand book. "mandate, transparency." etc. Please, evaluate the situation a little better than this.

"I want my husband to work. I hate that he has to pass up a 25% raise because union bullies won't allow him to make another choice. But everytime a union family comes out and says "hey, this is not my first choice" we are slammed and threatened personally."

Few union people know that you have to belong to the union but you do not have to pay ALL the dues. You have choices. They are scary choices because I know that if you chose to pay reduced dues that do not include the ad budget, then everyone will know and you will be subject to the mob mentality.
But a few families are stepping up, saying settle this, and lets take what we can right now and work on the next contract.

Unfortunately, your transparent, mandated union won't give them a voice.

 

[FAcFriend]

When determing the proper pay raise for crews, the union doesn't need to see any financials from EJM, NJI, NJE,

I don't agree. The negotiating team does need to consider the profits of all of Netjets in order to effectively determine pay wages for the pilots.

The pilots do have the clout and ability to look beyond. That is the beauty of a union shop. There are many drawbacks to a union, this is one of the upsides.

Ford has MOPAR, their parts and service division, even fast food groups- European Divisions pay US divisions for things like Accounting fees etc.

What we havent seen here is what NJE pays NJA or NJS -
The pilots negotiations team needs all the information to make sound judgements- Give it to them and move on-

 

[dsptchrnja]

I don't agree. The negotiating team does need to consider the profits of all of Netjets in order to effectively determine pay wages for the pilots.

I could agree if "all of Netjets" included EJM, NJI, NJE and FLIGHT SAFETY, ETC. But they are not NJA Companies, they are BH. So isn't Dairy Queen and Geico. I agree they are relevent only to the degree that cash is coming or going from them directly to and from NJA - but all that shows up on NJA financial balance sheets.

Each BH company must survive on it's own - even NJE (eventually). NJA's expectation is to provide an annual 7% return to BH. Pilots salaries are based off NJA financials alone. Are you saying that if Flight Safety has a boom year that NJA salaries should be affected? I realized there is a conspiracy theory out there that NJA is charging it's sister companies more to funnel money into them so they can cheat the pilots out of more pay. As far as I'm concerned it is just that - a theory with an agenda.

 

[BoilerUP]

As far as I'm concerned it is just that - a theory with an agenda.

I have no dog in this fight (other than knowing a couple NJA pilots and a couple flight followers) - but if the company would allow the union access to the books they want to see, we would TRULY see if it was "just a theory with an agenda". What does NJA have to hide from their "valued" crewmembers?

Anything less than NBAA average is unacceptable, IMO.

 

[Sun Tzu]

Let's tell EJM we can't pay the price for ramp fees, oil, O2.

Let's tell the catering vendors we can't pay the prices because we are not making any money.

Let's tell Cessna, Raytheon, Gulfstream, Dassault that we can't pay those prices for those expensive jets because BH needs his profit.

Let's tell Signature, Altantic and other FBO's we can't pay for ramp fees and fuel because we are not profitable.

Doesn't make sense! Why then would the pilots agree to the same BS!
It's the cost of doing business

 

[dsptchrnja]

I have no dog in this fight (other than knowing a couple NJA pilots and a couple flight followers) - but if the company would allow the union access to the books they want to see, we would TRULY see if it was "just a theory with an agenda". What does NJA have to hide from their "valued" crewmembers?

Yah, I think it could come to that. But then there is the issue of the union to sign a non-disclosure that has to be delt with. Not to mention the time it takes for a third party to obtain, and fully prepare reports for not 1 company - but now at least 5 companies... it's going to be a long year

 

[VmaxFlyR]

FamilyGuy:

Now you sound like Rick Dubinsky.....gonna wring the last golden egg out of the goose...that paid off in the long run...

If you believe that United's, or for that matter Delta's or American's, current financial situation is a result of "pilot wages" you probably need to spend a little less time on this board, and a little more time doing your union busting research. United's losses/total debt are in great excess of TOTAL pilot compensation.

I guess Mr. Dubinsky is also responsible for the underfunding of the now defunct United pensions, eh? Ya, he probably had something to do with that pension plan over at USAirways, too!

The only clear comparison here is both company's often near-sighted, wasteful (mis)management and disregard for their passengers/owners. Because of the "contract based" relationship with its owners, this will be allowed to happen more slowly at Netjets than it did at United.

Hopefully the folks in Columbus will wakeup (at Buffet's and Santooli's guidance?) and turn it around before it's really too late. Once customers/owners are lost, all will be lost...

 

[FAcFriend]

[B]But then there is the issue of the union to sign a non-disclosure that has to be delt with.[I - dispatcher

First- the only person not to sign the non disclosure was the mec chair. The negotiating team did sign.

If the MEC chair doesnt feel comfortable (for any reason) participating in the negotiations, that is ok. He understands he cannot dictate the work of the negotiation team and only have part of the information, otherwise he would not be a good leader.

I am sure in the coming weeks the MEC chair will get out of the negotiation process and let his team do their best work or get fully vested in the process and know his pilots will trust his work.


Ps we both know that the relationship between NJE and Dairy Queen and the pilot union are not the same-

 

[FamilyGuy]

FamilyGuy:

If you believe that United's, or for that matter Delta's or American's, current financial situation is a result of "pilot wages" you probably need to spend a little less time on this board, and a little more time doing your union busting research. United's losses/total debt are in great excess of TOTAL pilot compensation.

I guess Mr. Dubinsky is also responsible for the underfunding of the now defunct United pensions, eh? Ya, he probably had something to do with that pension plan over at USAirways, too!

The only clear comparison here is both company's often near-sighted, wasteful (mis)management and disregard for their passengers/owners. Because of the "contract based" relationship with its owners, this will be allowed to happen more slowly at Netjets than it did at United.

Why are you blaming management for all of United's troubles when the airline was 55% employee owned, and largely controlled by the unions...to the extent that the unions had seats on the board of directors?

The unions used that control to give themselves the highest wages in the industry, why didnt they use that control to make sure the pensions were adequately funded?

 

[BoilerUP]

Your lack of knowledge about the history and circumstances leading to the ESOP is telling.

"From Wooden Wings" by Patrick Palazzolo, along with "Hard Landing" and "Flying the Line Volume 2", will give you some insight into what United employees were up against. Dubinsky is not the villan you proclaim him to be.

A buddy of mine's dad is a 777 CA for United. He told me a story that UAL used to fly a 747 from ORD to HNL that was always oversold. Then one day, United came out with a policy that any route that could not have its load factor improved would be removed from the system. A 100% load factor cannot be improved upon, so the route was cancelled.

He's been furloughed, been on strike and been with the company for 28 years, so I doubt he'd lie about such a thing.

 

[dukeofdub]

Your study guides?

"From Wooden Wings" by Patrick Palazzolo, along with "Hard Landing" and "Flying the Line Volume 2", will give you some insight into what United employees were up against. Dubinsky is not the villan you proclaim him to be.

With all your expert knowledge from reading all these union study guides why is the MEC having such a hard time?

 

[BoilerUP]

Union study guides? "Hard Landing", written by a Wall Street Journal reporter about the state of the airline industry is a "union study guide"?

As I said in my earlier post there, my only connection to NJA is a couple flight followers and a couple pilots. I don't see anything wrong with the requests of the StrongUnion, but I do see pilots being paid 50% or less of NBAA average to do vastly more work. Yes, they knew the pay going in, but they were given expectations by the company that the company has failed to honor. Besides, if you feel like you are worth more, you ask for more. That's the whole point of negotiations, right? If one party is not acting in good faith, that kind of negates the process. NJA pilots telling this board that we shouldn't go to Netjets because upgrade time is long and pay is low isn't badmouthing the company - its the truth!

Quit jumping to conclusions, sparky, or you just might land on your face.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Your lack of knowledge about the history and circumstances leading to the ESOP is telling.

Three observations:

1 - my comments had nothing to do with the history and circumstances of United's ESOP. I noticed that none of your follow on comments did either.

2 - For the record, United's ESOP was in 1994....Dubinsky's infamous comments were in 2000. The two are not related. Nor did Dubinsky's comments have anything to do with the history and circumstances leading to the ESOP.

3 - You didnt even try to answer my questions -

United was 55% owned by the employees, who used that control to give themselves the highest pay in the industry. Why didnt they also use that control to fund the pensions?

Given this control, why is all of the blame laid at the feet of the managers who were essentially powerless?

"From Wooden Wings" by Patrick Palazzolo, along with "Hard Landing" and "Flying the Line Volume 2", will give you some insight into what United employees were up against. Dubinsky is not the villan you proclaim him to be.

A buddy of mine's dad is a 777 CA for United. He told me a story that UAL used to fly a 747 from ORD to HNL that was always oversold. Then one day, United came out with a policy that any route that could not have its load factor improved would be removed from the system. A 100% load factor cannot be improved upon, so the route was cancelled.

He's been furloughed, been on strike and been with the company for 28 years, so I doubt he'd lie about such a thing.

What does this have to do with Dubinsky's comments about choking the goose until it gives up every golden egg?

 

[VmaxFlyR]

Three observations:

1 - my comments had nothing to do with the history and circumstances of United's ESOP. I noticed that none of your follow on comments did either.

2 - For the record, United's ESOP was in 1994....Dubinsky's infamous comments were in 2000. The two are not related. Nor did Dubinsky's comments have anything to do with the history and circumstances leading to the ESOP.

3 - You didnt even try to answer my questions -

United was 55% owned by the employees, who used that control to give themselves the highest pay in the industry. Why didnt they also use that control to fund the pensions?

Given this control, why is all of the blame laid at the feet of the managers who were essentially powerless?

What does this have to do with Dubinsky's comments about choking the goose until it gives up every golden egg?

Question: If United was "largely controlled by the Unions" and had the level of control that you've insinuated, why would Dubinsky have had to make his now infamous statement?

There in lies the rub...if the Unions had such control over United, ever since the ESOP in 1994 as you've stated (...interesting that you're able to recall that detail...), why did they need Dubinsky at all?

'Cause the Unions weren't "running United"--(mis)Management was, and seemingly continue to do so based upon recent events--it doesn't stop with the pilots--the mechanics and F/As are at odds with United, too!

Should the Union members serving on United's Board have been more mindful of the pension funding? Possibly so, but we may never know what info they were being fed regarding that issue--I'd doubt they'd have willingly let contributions lapse! As an employee and beneficiary, would you have knowingly allowed such a situation?!?

Sadly, Corporate/Executive greed and related mismanagement approaches criminal behavior these days...TYCO, Enron, WorldCom, HeathSouth and others come to mind, just to get off subject.

But United's not alone--American also had a flirtation regarding executive compensation. Hopefully Mr. Buffet is as principled as he appears to be, and a resolution will be forthcoming at Netjets...

 

[Fozzy]

"Hopefully Mr. Buffet is as principled as he appears to be, and a resolution will be forthcoming at Netjets..."

HAA! Principled?!? That is all for show. They are all the same.

 

[Sun Tzu]

Whats up dsptchrNJA? No response to my post! I don't see you offering up part of your salary to help out poor old Netjets. How about you working more days for RTS to help out the bottom line. You love to make determinations on what is fair for the pilots. I believe you and everyone else at netjets should be paid market wages. I really don't want to see a worn out post about fractional wages comparisons or that netjets isn't profitable.

From monster.com:
Columbus, OH Dispatcher

50% percentile $34,688
75% percentile $41,196

Columbus, OH Small Jet Captain

50% percentile $96,749
75% percentile $115,096

5th Year Netjets Captain $60,984
63% of what a 50 percentile small jet captain makes
53% of what a 75 percentile small jet captain makes


How does that look for a dispatcher at netjets?
63% of $34,688 = $21,853 or
53% of $41,196 = $21,833

I really hope you are making more than 21k a year. If you don't my apologies.

The new pay proposal still doesn't come close to these values, even working 30 plus days more than we do now. I really hope you can see the smoke and mirrors that the company is pushing.

 

[GVFlyer]

FamilyGuy:

If you believe that United's, or for that matter Delta's or American's, current financial situation is a result of "pilot wages" you probably need to spend a little less time on this board, and a little more time doing your union busting research. United's losses/total debt are in great excess of TOTAL pilot compensation.

I guess Mr. Dubinsky is also responsible for the underfunding of the now defunct United pensions, eh? Ya, he probably had something to do with that pension plan over at USAirways, too!

The only clear comparison here is both company's often near-sighted, wasteful (mis)management and disregard for their passengers/owners. Because of the "contract based" relationship with its owners, this will be allowed to happen more slowly at Netjets than it did at United.

...

The Chicago Tribune ran a balanced summary of United's path to bankruptcy. Here it is, complete with Captain Dubinsky's famed remark that United was "awash with cash" and they only wanted to choke the golden goose until they got every last egg.


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/specials/united/chi-unitedday1-story,0,5045647.story?coll=chi-unitednav-misc


I'm sure that no one wanted to arrive at the situation in the aviation industry where we are today with over 9,200 furloughed airline pilots on the street and pilot wages spiralling downward in every segment but corporate, but I am certain that pilot compensation played a part in it. Otherwise how do you square comments like Richard Anderson's reply to the question as to why he was leaving his post as Northwest's CEO, "All of the Legacy carriers will have to go through bankruptcy to restructure costs and I don't want to be at the helm at Northwest when that happens."

GV






~

 

[bluepost]

First off let me say I "don't care" if NJ has the money to pay me or not. If they can't pay they should not be in business. Owners will fly these aircraft somewhere, and it is already happening to some degree.


That being said, I am still here fighting because I believe the money is there...here are a few examples:

1) We pay more for FSI classes then Jet Aviation does
2) The whole Oil thing in HPN
3) Every owner is insured for the full hull on the aircraft even though they only own a share. Who is the owner of the insurance compnay? BH.
4) A 5% increase in owner fees in Oct 2001 would of paid for ADJUSTED NBAA pay with 100% retro. It wound generate about 150 mill a year, or about 7.5% of the 2 billion in revenue....the company is not going to give up 7.5% of return without a fight.

 

[dsptchrnja]

Whats up dsptchrNJA? No response to my post! I don't see you offering up part of your salary to help out poor old Netjets. How about you working more days for RTS to help out the bottom line. You love to make determinations on what is fair for the pilots. I believe you and everyone else at netjets should be paid market wages. I really don't want to see a worn out post about fractional wages comparisons or that netjets isn't profitable.

From monster.com:
Columbus, OH Dispatcher

50% percentile $34,688
75% percentile $41,196

Columbus, OH Small Jet Captain

50% percentile $96,749
75% percentile $115,096

5th Year Netjets Captain $60,984
63% of what a 50 percentile small jet captain makes
53% of what a 75 percentile small jet captain makes


How does that look for a dispatcher at netjets?
63% of $34,688 = $21,853 or
53% of $41,196 = $21,833

I really hope you are making more than 21k a year. If you don't my apologies.

The new pay proposal still doesn't come close to these values, even working 30 plus days more than we do now. I really hope you can see the smoke and mirrors that the company is pushing.

Sorry, I think you have me confused with someone who doesn't support a pay raise.

BTW, comparing NJA non-bargaining employees with union employees will only lead to the same point that seems to keep coming up again and again. NJA non-bargaining employees tend to be more content with their pay and benefits, do not suffer greatly from false hopes and expectations, and generally don't have bitter feelings towards the company from a sense of being underpaid, or cheated - all resulting in greater satisfaction and QOL. IOW, I'm of the opinion that the union is part of the problem, and rarely proves itself to be the best solution.