NetJets International Interview

[G4dude]

Doesn't look like you're making much progress at forcing the NJI pilots into the International Brotherhod of Teamsters in your thinly disguied seat grab. Guess I don't owe you an apology yet.

I agree!! What I cannot figure out is this: If NJA and NJI are the same company, and NJI pilots are happy and NJA pilots are not, why don't the NJA pilots want what NJI pilots have? Namely, better pay, better treatment, and an enjoyable nonunion workplace? Why should the NJI guys and girls be forced to integrate into a miserable union workplace in which pay and morale are low?

 

[Majik]

And this brings up an interesting point. Why does the guy that is in charge of both NJI and NJA decide to treat one group better than the other side? The major difference is because one side is unionized. Seems like the big boy is trying to punish the NJA folks and you tend to agree with him to keep those nasty, unionized pilots in their place. NJI pilots have no ability to affect their pay or work rules; they must take what is offered. Lucky for you the big guy is using you as a tool to try to punish NJA's union. I don't blame you for being concerned about losing your status as the favorite son. I don't blame you for being fearful that the out-of-favor son is unhappy and attempting to increase his lot by legally leveling the playing field and asking for an equal share from the father. A level playing field would suck for you and I don't blame you for not wanting to lose your current advantage. I wish us both luck in our struggle; mine for fairness, yours for continued favoritism.

 

[AA717driver]

Uh, you don't NEED a union if you are getting treated well. TC

 

[GVFlyer]

NJI History

And this brings up an interesting point. Why does the guy that is in charge of both NJI and NJA decide to treat one group better than the other side? The major difference is because one side is unionized. Seems like the big boy is trying to punish the NJA folks and you tend to agree with him to keep those nasty, unionized pilots in their place. NJI pilots have no ability to affect their pay or work rules; they must take what is offered. Lucky for you the big guy is using you as a tool to try to punish NJA's union. I don't blame you for being concerned about losing your status as the favorite son. I don't blame you for being fearful that the out-of-favor son is unhappy and attempting to increase his lot by legally leveling the playing field and asking for an equal share from the father. A level playing field would suck for you and I don't blame you for not wanting to lose your current advantage. I wish us both luck in our struggle; mine for fairness, yours for continued favoritism.

Once again, I have to get involved here. This time to keep the Army's facts straight.

NJI, then EJI, most certainly negotiated their work rules, compensation and home basing with Richard, Vince, Jim Jacobs and David Orlinsky at Montvale.This is how they got there.

The time is January 1995. NJA (EJA at that time) was known for it's low pay and history of hiring turbo-prop regional pilots into jets (at least that was our conception at Gulfstream). These pilots were willing to accept the work rules, duty periods, gateways and poor compensation their union had negotiated for them in return for jet time. They were flying mostly Citation IIs.

Richard Santulli approached Teddy Forstman, the then current owner of Gulfstream, saying he would like to start an international operations company using Gulfstreams. Forstman handed the deal to Bill Boisture, then President of Gulfstream, to make happen.

The initial contract between Gulfstream and NetJets was a Bill Boisture - Richard Santulli deal. Gulfstream provided the first three "core" aircraft because Santulli and Executive Jet were unable to capitilize them at that time (Richard had not yet sold his company to Warren Buffet so there was not a lot of cash on hand). In order for Gulfstream to provide these aircraft and be part of the deal, it was agreed that only well experienced Gulfstream pilots would be hired for the new venture because safety was to be a key marketing point and NJI buyers would be guaranteed highly qualified, internationally experienced Gulfstream pilots. Gulfstream did not want unqualified or marginally qualified pilots flying their aircraft and their $100 million investment in NJI postioned them to demand this requirement.

It was originally determined that only pilots with a minimum of 2,500 hours in Gulfstreams would be hired. To draw the kind of pilots desired, work rules as well as starting and subsequent salaries were set to be industry standard (and still are).

The first EJI office was in the Gulfstream Customer lounge. Rick Schwartz, Ray Roberts and Peter Hanchak interviewed pilots while Joe Murphy, the present NJI President, shuttled between Savannah and Montvale hammering out compensation, homebasing, organization, workrules and duty periods.

Compensation for current hire NJI pilots is 50% percentile NBAA. The Captains who have been there for 10 years do considerably better.

As NJI has matured their hiring policies have changed. The initial cadre were all Gulfstream captains. Now, they hire First Officers and while prior Gulfstream experience is still the preference these pilots are hard to find so select non-Gulfstream rated First Officers are hired.

In order to keep the pilots happy (and this is a principal concern at NJI), the pilots are divided into groups with each group having a leader. In this manner even the most lowly new hire first officer can communicate his concerns, b!tches, or better ideas to his group leader who will inturn pass it up to a very receptive leadership group.

Presently, maintenance and sales relationships exist between Gulfstream and NJI. Gulfstream sells Shares to existing Gulfstream customers and large cabin aircraft owners. NJI sells Gulfstream Shares to mid and small cabin aircraft owners as well as "Concept Buyers."

Gulfstream has a close relationship with NetJets. Raynor Reavis (along with Susan Mitchell) at Gulfstream set up the Gulfstream Shares Program. He then went to NetJets to be their Vice President for Sales. He is now back at Gulfstream as Gulfstream Vice President for Sales and Marketing. Kevin Russell, who is the current NetJets VP for Marketing came from Gulfstream Marketing and of course, your President is our former President.

NJI is an autonomous company with their own President, executive staff, maintenance and dispatch/scheduling operations chartered in South Carolina, a "Right to Work" state. It will be interesting to see how the International Brotherhood of Teamster's single carrier suit plays out.

We had a couple of 1/8th shares and under NJI's rules the owning companies' pilots can fly in command on NJI aircraft as long as they meet NJI qualification and experience requirements as well as passing written, oral and flight checks. As such, I flew as an NJI Captain on our share aircraft for over a year and know many of the line pilots (some of whom I flew with at Andrews AFB) very well. I also know the Okatie leadership group from Gulfstream's efforts in initially establishing the EJI program as well as from working special joint projects with them. I think they are rightly proud of the organization they worked hard to build and that it is ironic that a the non-union organization was able to negotiate better compensation, work rules and home basing than could the union pilots.




GV







~

 

[ultrarunner]

Lets streamline this analogy a little.

Delta creates a non-union division "Song" that will only fly B-747-400s on the Pacific rim. They decide to hire from outside because Boeing said that none of Delta's pilots can handle a plane with 4 engines. They pay "Song" Captains 3 times what mainline B777 Capts are paid (same routes).

Do you thing Delta mainline (union) pilots would try to merge the flying?
Your darn right they would!

Would Mainline pilots want the same pay?
Darn right they would!

Do you think Mainline pilots would want the new (non-union, non-dues paying) pilots
integrated by DOH?
N-E-V-E-R!!!!!!!!!!

Would they go for stapling?
You bet you last dollar they would.

Now, in the post above, substitute:
NJA for Delta/Mainline
NJI for Song
Falcon/C750 for B777
Gulfstream for B747
Europe/Asia for Pacific rim



For comparison:
NJA has approx 330 aircraft, 1900 pilots, 11 types, started 1986
NJI has approx 50 aircraft, 300 pilots, 2 types, started 1995

So NJA Capt, what happened in 1995 when NJA pilots stood up for what, as you so, was RIGHTFULLY THEIRS?

HUH, what happend???

Ten years after NJI was formed, and YOUR union did WHAT about it?


Give me a freaking break.

 

[Publishers]

Thank you GV for pointing out what NJA players seem to think is theirs is not and imagine an owner wanting to make the rules. In the end, exactly what you pointed out is why the single carrier argument will have trouble. It will take away the single carrier credibility by pointing out that it was not a company merely setting up an alter ego but a partnership which other partners made the rules.

 

[Starman]

Publishers,

Is that partnership still active with Gulfstream owning part of NJI? I don't think so. Regardless of how it came to be, it doesn't matter now. It's part of NetJets, Inc. and that makes it subject to single carrier under the RLA.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

Regardless of how it came to be, it doesn't matter now.

Is that so? Your contract (hence your union leadership) allowed for and endorsed the creation of NJI as it clearly states in your contract,



1.4 Exception to the Scope of this Agreement:

a) The Gulfstream aircraft operated and to be operated by Executive Jet International, Inc.



In business, everything matters. And in this case, you don’t have a leg to stand on. As is evident by the numerous posts and threats of a law suit that to date doesn’t exist. For a judge to even consider your case the above stated paragraph from your contract would need to vanish, unfortunately, it’s a binding, legal document which both parties signed.



When you realize that NJI is a separate company operating under the corporate structure of NETJETS, INC. and you don’t (nor will) have the ability to shape, influence or otherwise direct the futures of said company and their employees; the better off you’ll be.



It is truly unfortunate to see such a group of professional, educated pilots walk blindly down a road that has no reward. Your efforts would produce more favorable results (in my opinion) when you start meaningful dialogue in a way which opens doors, not making demands and threats. NJI is such a small fraction of NETJETS, Inc. it boggles the imagination why so many of your more radicals are so fixated on it.



I guess some people just have to learn the hard way, but so is life; growing up on a small farm in N.C. I watched more than one kid piss on my dads’ electrical fence just to see if it would shock them.

 

[Starman]

Any provision in a contract that is contrary to federal law is null and void. Take at least a business law course before getting on here and making an ass out of yourself.

That's ok though Wolfpack, you can upgrade in the Ultra in a year or two.

 

[G4dude]

And this brings up an interesting point. Why does the guy that is in charge of both NJI and NJA decide to treat one group better than the other side? The major difference is because one side is unionized. Seems like the big boy is trying to punish the NJA folks and you tend to agree with him to keep those nasty, unionized pilots in their place. NJI pilots have no ability to affect their pay or work rules; they must take what is offered. Lucky for you the big guy is using you as a tool to try to punish NJA's union. I don't blame you for being concerned about losing your status as the favorite son. I don't blame you for being fearful that the out-of-favor son is unhappy and attempting to increase his lot by legally leveling the playing field and asking for an equal share from the father. A level playing field would suck for you and I don't blame you for not wanting to lose your current advantage. I wish us both luck in our struggle; mine for fairness, yours for continued favoritism.

I am not anti-union because I want to preserve my status, but because I believe the union is precisely the WRONG ANSWER to the concerns of the many pilots I meet on the road, who deserve a better deal, the deal I already have. Not only that, but I believe the only reason the NJA pilots are not treated well is because they insist on being-and behaving like-unionized workers. No offence intended. In other words, the union is the cause of the problem, AND the wrong solution, one that has not worked after so many years of "representation"
By the way, in his excellent post, Majik suggests the reason NJI is treated so well is as an anti-union tool, yet union people often write on this website about how NJI pay is below industry standards. This seems to be a contradiction, or am I missing something?

 

[G4dude]

Any provision in a contract that is contrary to federal law is null and void. Take at least a business law course before getting on here and making an ass out of yourself.

That's ok though Wolfpack, you can upgrade in the Ultra in a year or two.

If I get put in the Ultra, do I get my Gulfstream IV pay? I wouldn't mind that, although I would miss our flight attendants, who are charming, witty, and feed me too well. As my expanding waistline can attest.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

Any provision in a contract that is contrary to federal law is null and void. That's ok though Wolfpack, you can upgrade in the Ultra in a year or two.

Do you honestly believe the lawyers working for the DOJ, the Teamsters, and the Company are going to sign off on a contract with full knowledge it contains violations of federal law? Perhaps you should join me in business class.

As for the ultra crack; I flew Citations many years ago, and they are a wonderful aircraft. Very stable and forgiving; and an excellent platform to transition into a larger, more complex aircraft like the G-IV or V. But with your attitude, it’s not likely you'll be flying one with a QS tail.

 

[AA717driver]

Any provision in a contract that is contrary to federal law is null and void. Take at least a business law course before getting on here and making an ass out of yourself.

Sooooo... When are the Comair pilots getting their rightful place on the Delta list. How about Eagle? WO's at USAir? It's amazing those SCOPE clauses have lasted this long.

Maybe they're different... TC

 

[Some Dude]

I always laugh when people say "you don't need a union at my company." "Mgmt treats us right." These idiots think that the same mgmt. team will be there for their entire career. What happen when a new team comes in and cuts your pay or job? You get screwed.

NJI pilots are the LOWEST PAID G4 G5 pilots in the country.

 

[h25b]

I always laugh when people say "you don't need a union at my company." "Mgmt treats us right." These idiots think that the same mgmt. team will be there for their entire career. What happen when a new team comes in and cuts your pay or job? You get screwed.

You've obviously been sleeping through the past 4 years. Tell the people at United how the union has protected their pensions... Ask a former TWA pilot how things have worked out for them, or maybe ask a probationary CHQ pilot (fellow Teamster by the way) that got fired just after 9/11 how their "iron clad" union protection worked out... Any contract isn't worth the paper it's written on, especially once a bankruptcy judge gets their hands on it.

If a group collectively votes in a union, well, good luck to them... However, it would seem that the NJI people are a happy bunch.

And by all accounts, the NJI guys/gals are paid at 50th percentile NBAA. That means right in the middle, not the highest paid yet not the lowest by a large margin either. I could reasonably guess the the NetJets people are probably 25th percentile at best, so please don't bash the NJI pilots about pay.

 

[Starman]

Once again H25b chimes in on a subject that he has no personal stake in. No dog in this fight but he's gotta put in his two cents. Blah, blah,blah. Do us all a favor you arrogant twit, migrate back on over to the corporate pages or whatever rock you crawled out from under.

 

[Publishers]

I think Starman is going to get his free course in business legal battles along with his meal of crow over what supercedes what.

 

[h25b]

Once again H25b chimes in on a subject that he has no personal stake in. No dog in this fight but he's gotta put in his two cents. Blah, blah,blah. Do us all a favor you arrogant twit, migrate back on over to the corporate pages or whatever rock you crawled out from under.

Sorry, I must have misunderstood all of the talk from the likes of you/netjetwife on how all of us 135 pilots were supposed to decline work and all of the talk about the "rising tides" lifting all of our collective boats B.S. So according to you guys, we should ALL have a "dog in this fight" ...

Like I said before, please leave all of us non-dog owners out of it and take your battle behind closed doors where it belongs.

You're a different arguement a day. First we should ALL support you, and the next day we have no dog in the fight. You're going about this battle about as dumb as it gets. You went out and stirred up this pot and now it looks like h$ll will cool to 32 degrees before you'll ever get released to strike.

So please Starman, please correct me where I'm wrong in my previous post. I was just pointing out that suggesting a union is the answer to all problems is pretty hard to believe in today's environment.

 

[Diesel]

H2b just a question. Did your flight department downsize due to a fractional? In an earlier post on the corporate side you went from a large corporate department with about 11 pilots to a small corp department flying small jets.

Just wondering what happened to the other department?

 

[h25b]

H2b just a question. Did your flight department downsize due to a fractional? In an earlier post on the corporate side you went from a large corporate department with about 11 pilots to a small corp department flying small jets.

Just wondering what happened to the other department?

My first corporate job was with a Fortune 500 flight department (11 pilots) operating three aircraft and was constantly being circled over by the NetJets marketing vultures. I left there for another EXTREMELY large corporation. From there I have gone on to a very small department operating 2 aircraft. The latest move was not planned, but fell out of the sky and was too good to pass up since I missed being more involved in things outside of just flying.

I don't disagree that in certain situations union representation is a necessary evil, but I have personally seen where in many other situations it holds talented people back from seeing their full potential. Noone can convince me that it's the answer to everything...