NetJets Integration

[CA1900]

And our average daily meal expense per crewmember is STILL below $45.

Exactly.

Frankly, I like having the option. If I want to go across the street in HPN for some hot food, I do it without a second thought. If I'm dog tired and would rather eat a sandwich in the room and crash, I'll do that hang onto the cash for another day's beer consumption.

Internationally, we can do per-diem or go on NJI-style meal receipts.

 

[NJAPLT]

I will attempt to make my feeling known about this integration from my view (I'm just a member, have no position of authority in the union.)

There are issues not covered in the LOA. How about nobody at NJI wants per-diem. There are others as well, why don't you ask any NJI guy. Let's not blast it all out here.
My take is that any issue not covered in the LOA will simply follow the current contract. The NJI pilots cannot negotiate something away that is in the contract for all NetJets pilots. If the company wants to give the ability to go on receipt domestically (or any other "NJI Perk" to them after the integration date) I am fine with it as long as it applies to all pilots, NJA, NJI, NJLA.

The simple rule is what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Although I agree integration is a good thing in the long run, I am displeased about some aspects of the integration LOA, most specifically the idea that a less senior NJI "A" teamer who negotiated pay greater than the union rates will get to not only keep the better pay, but they will also get the normal step increases, insuring that a junior pilot will always get paid more than a more senior pilot. I think the fair thing to do would have been to pay everyone senior to the "A team pilot" the same increase.

Another issue is the you have to be a NJI G4 captain before going to the G5. Again, smacks of "A Team" status to me.

Of course what I wish or think or consider unfair has no bearing on what will actually occur during this integration.

I have no issues in giving pilots the "NJI Perks", such as fly to work from wherever rather than a base, or go home using the company card vs the NJA process of using your own card, as long as all NetJets pilots get those same benefits.

Simply put: The "A Team" days are over. If the company grants benefits to NJI that they don't grant NJA (after integration, or are not specifically spelled out in the LOA) then I expect our union to file a grievance to get those same benefits to the entire NJ pilot population. After integration we should be one group for all aspects, under one contract. The next contract should not even consider what operation the pilots came from before, we should just be considered NetJets pilots, and the LOA special rules should be eliminated at that time.

But, best of all. There is legal case precedent about this very type of integration. With lawyers and judges too. Anybody ever research or remember history? The NJI guys have more legal protection than they know due this case. The lower 47, well it isn't as bleak as it seems. Things such as expected carreer path are clearly defined.

I was told during my interview that I would be a captain at NJA in less than a year, and I would get bypass pay in 6 months. I have not saw either yet. Can I win a lawsuit against the union, the company, RTS?

NJI has their aircraft limited before the integration, so I expected some G5's would come that would have to be flown by NJA pilots. Can I sue the NJI pilots because now I can't expect to be captain the G5 without being captain in the G4 first?

BO, RTS, NJASAP and NJI Management don't want you folks to know about this because they want you to think they are in control and you have no rights. Well, the case file, and original law firms name have been given to a few NJI pilots (not my younger Brother) so that in the final hours, the legal fee spending will increase and management will perspire. You all have rights, NJA and NJI, why are you listening to someone that is diverting your attention while trying to take something from you? Why do think there is NO written communication directly to you about this subject? Only phone calls and personal visits. See, no proof!

Good Luck Gents

I think overall this integration will benefit both of our groups. That being said, although I don't believe that the NJI pilots have either a lawsuit or case before RLA, I will not undermine anyone's right to investigate it for themselves.

I think a lawsuit to stop the integration will just waste everyone's time however, and would be harmful to both groups. Hopefully anyone considering a lawsuit would think about the damage that will occur to NJA, NJI, the NJASAP, and themselves first by tying this up in the legal system.

 

[Diesel]

Before we say its an integration team, it isn't really one when the NJI pilots don't have a voice.

I'll say it again, and having dinner with 5 NJA to NJI pilots tonight, people don't know what its like till you've done both.

 

[CastofThousands]

Were the pilots at NJI approached to join the union? pre 2005, 2006?

Stick with me here, you essentially want representation without paying any dues?


I have to agree with Cast, it seems he's warning us the house is on fire and we're occupied with leveling the pictures on the walls.
We all need to close ranks and eat the sandwich made for ALL of us to enjoy (tic).

Yes, sir.

Winner winner, chicken dinner (as long as the house is private aviation or aviation in general).

As for the rest of the drama here - I'm out of the therapy biz. Just focusing on solutions. Look past the trees to see the forest - 2010 isn't far away and private aviation isn't what it was in 2007 and won't be for a while.

Courtesy message has been delivered. Use it for what it's worth.

.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

Stick with me here, you essentially want representation without paying any dues?

I never said anything of the such. As this integration moves forward, NJASAP/NJI pilots will benefit greatly by engaging each other sooner than later. The day the light switch is turned on should be a non-event if the union engages us, and we engage the union.

As I said before, I have years of experience in union leadership... there are things that need to be addressed internally before we join NJASAP. Thats all I'm trying to say here.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Courtesy message has been delivered. Use it for what it's worth.

Management will do whatever management will do without your input, rest assured.

The plan is already set. They are executing it. Your input, if given, will be used as a disclaimer just to say they asked.

IBB. It Benefits Bill.

 

[squonk]

Courtesy message has been delivered. Use it for what it's worth.

It's about time.

Thank you if you were the driving force behind it. All I'm asking is to at least halfway be kept in the loop and not swatting skeeters in the dark.

 

[CastofThousands]

It's about time.

Thank you if you were the driving force behind it. All I'm asking is to at least halfway be kept in the loop and not swatting skeeters in the dark.

Rest assured there are some pilot advocates deeply involved - looking at every possible way to keep every pilot/family working. As yesterday's Chairman's message stated "my goal is to continue to avoid downsizing, although I can make no long-term promises." I have seen this first hand and the man is very sincere, more than most will ever know and that I think everyone should appreciate and respect.

Recognizing there are always a few (very) righteous and perfect individuals who's (FI) omnipotence raises above all others who post here; common sense says if there was a pilot hit squad it would already be in action. Bottom line: there are people posting here who have literally been chased of the union message board by the masses - nonetheless they yell louder simply because they want to be heard. Such is life, they are embedded in every component/career of/in society and while some like to check out the insanity and rate it, most roll on by.

Simply stated we want to preserve and create the best careers in the industry. Clearly adjustments need to be made as this will be a prolonged downturn.

What too many forget is that with furloughs come downgrades and displacements. Downsizing should be avoided if at all possible while we proceed in a respectable, compassionate, and dignified manner for all employees/pilots/families. It should be done without concessions and in a way where we can all manage our workdays/hours/expenses at a level that helps keep everyone employed/working.

We need to look at targeting aggregate workdays/hours - not head count. Knowing the pilot group the way I do, I would submit most would rather work a few less days than see a peer and fellow pilot have to go through a furlough. But, that will be up to the pilot group. As an example, having every pilot working the 7&7 and trading extended days for comp days would significantly reduce the excess workdays and number of pilots that could/would traditionally be captured in a furlough. Again, we are dealing with 2010 now, 2009 is already behind us.

FWIW,

 

[bluepost]

I would fully expect paid early retirement be offered before a reduction in 18/15 day schedules. For every 5 guys on the 18 day the company saves 1 employee, 50k+ in training costs and another 20k in benefits. Offering a 50k retirement option with full or assisted medical for a period of time would save more money in the long run. The offers could be fleet specific to avoid training costs, and further rightsize crew numbers.

Also I would fully expect to see the BBJs go away, or show how much profit they are generating.

 

[CastofThousands]

I would fully expect paid early retirement be offered before a reduction in 18/15 day schedules. For every 5 guys on the 18 day the company saves 1 employee, 50k+ in training costs and another 20k in benefits. Offering a 50k retirement option with full or assisted medical for a period of time would save more money in the long run. The offers could be fleet specific to avoid training costs, and further rightsize crew numbers.

Also I would fully expect to see the BBJs go away, or show how much profit they are generating.

I believe a combination of [early] retirement, short and long term leaves of absence, as well as other workday reduction options (7&7<18, additional [unpaid] vacation, etc) has a lot of merit. I would expect the long(er) term fleet plan (based on a/c market values and buyers) to continue to be evaluated as well.

My educated guess is this will be a conversation for 2009.

Best,

 

[x402]

Having this discussion on FI is INSANE. Please take it back to the company board.

 

[bluepost]

Well just tell Cast to join us over there :bomb: , I am sure he has the address....

But for the record I don't feel like the NJA group is in the mood for any more negotiations.

The fact is that Cast is trying to plant a seed here revealing what I would think would be confidential information. I don't think that seed will get much watering here.

Your right x402, I made a mistake. This discussion does not belong over here. Our time at war was still longer than our current time of peace. Many of us are still picking pieces of the failed gateway agreement out of our teeth.

 

[x402]

Well just tell Cast to join us over there :bomb: , I am sure he has the address....

But for the record I don't feel like the NJA group is in the mood for any more negotiations.

Exactly

Mgt can ICOM us anytime they want.

 

[CastofThousands]

Without a doubt. That said, sometimes professional courtesy trumps.

We will certainly continue the meat of Crew Integration (NJIAX), Operational Excellence (OpX), and Preventive Furlough Measures discussions elsewhere. 2009 is about T'ing things up for 2010.

We are all big boys and girls. It's a small industry. When dealing with issues at the highest levels I think we can handle FI - it's not as though this stuff is new in aviation and the realities of the current financial system and economy aren't already known.

Respectfully,

 

[bluepost]

Management had no problem enduring huge "losses" during the war over nothing more than spite....seems to me a little red ink to save some jobs wouldn't be too much to ask. I don't see where we have lost any money.....yet.

 

[CastofThousands]

Exactly

Mgt can ICOM us anytime they want.

I am sure we'll be calling this "The Summer of ICOMs - but now you know the framework. More importantly, an ICOM isn't a conversation. Out of respect, sometimes the conversation is more effective.

I go a little out of school from time to time. Life goes on, I can get my hands slapped (from all sides) and we'll move on.

 

[CastofThousands]

Management had no problem enduring huge "losses" during the war over nothing more than spite....seems to me a little red ink to save some jobs wouldn't be too much to ask. I don't see where we have lost any money.....yet.

Read the BRK report... Not insignificant and there is other public information indicating the significance. 2005 was nothing compared to 2009 and what may follow. I won't/can't go there.

Nonetheless, I have no doubt we will exit this downturn stronger.

In context, when we exit, as indicated in my first post on this thread - the landscape will be different. The competition NetJets has in the future will be different than what we had in 2008. A lot of the industry segment "evolution" has already begun.

 

[x402]

I am sure we'll be calling this "The Summer of ICOMs - but now you know the framework. More importantly, an ICOM isn't a conversation. Out of respect, sometimes the conversation is more effective.

I go a little out of school from time to time. Life goes on, I can get my hands slapped (from all sides) and we'll move on.

We have an elected leadership to converse with, I'm just a simple line pilot.
I'm sure you have their numbers.
Respectfully

 

[CastofThousands]

We have an elected leadership to converse with, I'm just a simple line pilot.
I'm sure you have their numbers.
Respectfully

Yes. Very good people.

 

[RNObased]

We need to look at targeting aggregate workdays/hours - not head count. Knowing the pilot group the way I do, I would submit most would rather work a few less days than see a peer and fellow pilot have to go through a furlough. But, that will be up to the pilot group. As an example, having every pilot working the 7&7 and trading extended days for comp days would significantly reduce the excess workdays and number of pilots that could/would traditionally be captured in a furlough. Again, we are dealing with 2010 now, 2009 is already behind us.

FWIW,

So let me get this straight, someone in CMH decides to hire pilots when most of the pilots on the line were questioning this, and now we get to take one for the team. Wow.

Reponsibility, accountability, maybe thinking before acting.... Words that many in CMH fail to understand. I'm not talking about RTS, I'm talking about the people that fail to think before they act in CMH and then run around trying to cover for themselves. Pathetic.