NetJets Integration

[Gruman Fan]

So now that the GPAC is history... what steps is NJASAP taking to insure I-side pilots have a voice in this process?

I know that the GPAC organizers made a formal request to the union and HH for our group to have some type of voice in this process prior to shutting down the effort.

I was hoping the union would take the lead (and the high road) and get some of our guys involved. It is the right thing to do. If this merger is going to happen fairly, then we deserve a voice.

 

[brokeflyer]

If this merger is going to happen fairly, then we deserve a voice.

DOH....is that fair?

 

[hyflyin]

DOH....is that fair?

No kidding!!

Instead of grumman just whinning and making the not fair statement, please enlighten us as to what is not fair. It would seem that all the balls are in the "I" sides court.

 

[CA1900]

If this merger is going to happen fairly, then we deserve a voice.

What exactly would you like us to do here? Cold-call your pilot list looking for volunteers? The integration plan has already been laid out by the company. As a non-union group, you don't really get much say in the matter, I'm sorry to say. Blunt, I know, but it's the truth.

We were excited and willing to work with GPAC, which was the closest thing to an organized group on the NJI side. The group dissolved, so where does that leave us? Who exactly should we communicate with as your "voice"? Anybody who claims to speak for the NJI pilots? What if he speaks for the minority? How would we know?

I'm not trying to be flippant here, but I'm not really sure what you're getting at. We did take the high road, and have from the beginning. As hyflyin says, the ball is in NJI's court.

 

[BeeDubya]

I was hoping the union would take the lead (and the high road) and get some of our guys involved. It is the right thing to do. If this merger is going to happen fairly, then we deserve a voice.

Clearly, the dissolution of GPAC threw a minor wrench in the works. I have felt from the beginning of this process that it would be important to have the input of NJI pilots as we move toward the final integration. While CA1900 is correct that a lot is already in place because of the LOAs, there are still important reasons to involve NJI pilots in the process. We will be doing just that.

We have decided to create a working group, comprised of NJI pilots who have previously shown an interest in working with NJASAP throughout this process, to act as liaisons/ambassadors between NJI and NJASAP. The exact membership of that body has not been finalized, but I have begun talking with some pilots who seem to be a good fit. I think we're getting close to making a formal announcement.

Hope this helps.
Fraternally,

Brian Ward

 

[DO-82 driver]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the way our E-Board is structured isn't there 2 sets of elctions due for members in the next few years? One set in about 1 year from now and another 18 months beyond that.

I would think that would be a golden opportunity for some NJI folks to hold an elected seat on the E-Board.

I'm sure there are some very talented, forward looking folks over there. Their input would benefit the total combined pilot force.

 

[Fozzy]

I would think that would be a golden opportunity for some NJI folks to hold an elected seat on the E-Board.

It would be a golden opportunity for them to run for an elected seat.
There are no free rides.

 

[DO-82 driver]

Fozzy....that's what I meant. When elctions come up all pilots would be eligible to RUN.

I certainly didn't mean appointed or be given a seat on the E-Board.

 

[Pervis]

Gruman, we were told via email from our former union leader, who now reports directly to the Office of the Chairman, that there would be no negotiations. None of us have any input, it would appear. While many items are covered by LOAs, I too feel there will be issues that NONE of us will have any input with.

Don't feel alone, isolated, or left out. There are over 3000 of us collectively that will feel the same way. Most are minor issues, but what about pay scales, locked for NJI by LOA, that place guys/gals junior to some of us at higher levels, or those already locked in a GIV left seat junior to some of us? Or unlimited basing for you guys, but not us?

From my limited prospective, you guys by far get the better end of the stick. Work rules alone with OT, holiday, and after midnight language are significant. Granted, the SICs on your end will have issue, as they will have to fall in line for upgrade by seniority like all of us. There are far more senior folks on this end standing in line ahead of them. However, every SIC at NJI I speak with have or are going through upgrade training now. Yea, yea, it's different over there, yada yada (no insult intended for any NJI personnel-that's what our leadership tells us).

You all should have access to the integration info on the NJASAP boards. Voice your concerns there, so we can all become more aware from all perspectives. There are those on both sides that we would all prefer to place in a net over shark infested waters, but the vast majority want and will work well together. Good luck to us all.

 

[gutshotdraw]

NJI pilots will not yet be members of the union 12 or even 18 months from now. Consequently, they will not have the opportunity to run for positions within NJASAP during those elections.

I-Day is 11:59 PM, November 19 2010. Until then, the NJI pilots' only input will be through the working groups organized by BW.

BTW, note to brokeflyer. Since the argument for integration has always been that we work for the same company doing the same job, that means I got hired by the same company as you in 1999. So, yes, DOH IS fair.

 

[BeeDubya]

Fozzy....that's what I meant. When elctions come up all pilots would be eligible to RUN.

I certainly didn't mean appointed or be given a seat on the E-Board.

Additionally, per the current bylaws (found on the NJASAP website), to be eligible to run for Union office, you must have 24 months continuous membership in good standing in the association. Which means, unless an exception is made for NJI pilots, the will not be able to run for 2 years after they begin paying dues.

Fraternally,

Brian

 

[brokeflyer]

NJI pilots will not yet be members of the union 12 or even 18 months from now. Consequently, they will not have the opportunity to run for positions within NJASAP during those elections.

I-Day is 11:59 PM, November 19 2010. Until then, the NJI pilots' only input will be through the working groups organized by BW.

BTW, note to brokeflyer. Since the argument for integration has always been that we work for the same company doing the same job, that means I got hired by the same company as you in 1999. So, yes, DOH IS fair.

ok thats all i was asking. Dont let my post come across the wrong way. I was just asking if you guys were told something diffrent. Everyone I know agrees doh id the ONLY fair way to do it.

 

[Ultra Grump]

BTW, note to brokeflyer. Since the argument for integration has always been that we work for the same company doing the same job, that means I got hired by the same company as you in 1999. So, yes, DOH IS fair.

I'm pretty sure that was his point. Counterpoint to GF's assertion that the integration won't be fair without NJI pilots' input.

 

[BeeDubya]

Gruman, we were told via email from our former union leader, who now reports directly to the Office of the Chairman, that there would be no negotiations. None of us have any input, it would appear. While many items are covered by LOAs, I too feel there will be issues that NONE of us will have any input with.

I would not say that "no negotiations" and "no input" are the same thing. I would agree that there will be no wholesale re-negotiations of the CBA or applicable LOAs -- and it would seem unwise in this economy anyway. Integration not only encompasses bringing NJI under the CBA. Looking at both operations and selecting what policies/practices are in everyone's best interest, is also part of the process, though not specifically negotiations. I have every confidence that all stakeholders will be involved in those discussions.

Don't feel alone, isolated, or left out. There are over 3000 of us collectively that will feel the same way. Most are minor issues, but what about pay scales, locked for NJI by LOA, that place guys/gals junior to some of us at higher levels, or those already locked in a GIV left seat junior to some of us? Or unlimited basing for you guys, but not us?

Why do you feel alone, isolated or left out? Did you not have a chance to vote on IBB? These issues were voted on by the membership and ratified. And the basing provisions are not unlimited. Read the LOA (01-013, Subpart B, paragraph (4)(g)) or give me a call if you want to know about basing.

From my limited prospective, you guys by far get the better end of the stick. Work rules alone with OT, holiday, and after midnight language are significant. Granted, the SICs on your end will have issue, as they will have to fall in line for upgrade by seniority like all of us. There are far more senior folks on this end standing in line ahead of them. However, every SIC at NJI I speak with have or are going through upgrade training now. Yea, yea, it's different over there, yada yada (no insult intended for any NJI personnel-that's what our leadership tells us).

Yes, we know that a lot of NJI SIC have gone through upgrade training. Look at the Integration section of our website. This issue is addressed directly, as a result of communications between the Integration Team and the company leadership. There is no indication of anything contrary to the LOAs or CBA.

You all should have access to the integration info on the NJASAP boards. Voice your concerns there, so we can all become more aware from all perspectives. There are those on both sides that we would all prefer to place in a net over shark infested waters, but the vast majority want and will work well together. Good luck to us all.

NJI pilots currently have access to the Integration section of the website, where information on the Integration Process as well as asnwers to Frequently Asked Questions can be found. There is an NJI-specific section of the NJASAP message boards, but we have not given NJI pilots access yet. We have one final issue to resolve (dealing with secure access) but when that is taken care of, NJI pilot will have access to that section of the boards.

Hope this helps.

Fraternally,
Brian Ward

 

[FLYLOW22]

When the G-Strings are integrated, they will be just another fleet. The pilots will simply be NetJets America pilots, just like us.

Current NJI pilots will be free to run for office. I have nothing against any NJI pilots and I look forward to what they bring to the table.

Besides, elections at NJA for anything are just OOOOOH so much fun...

 

[Twotter76]

NJI pilots currently have access to the Integration section of the website, where information on the Integration Process as well as asnwers to Frequently Asked Questions can be found. There is an NJI-specific section of the NJASAP message boards, but we have not given NJI pilots access yet. We have one final issue to resolve (dealing with secure access) but when that is taken care of, NJI pilot will have access to that section of the boards.

Hope this helps.

Fraternally,
Brian Ward

Will we have access to that section too so as to foster discussion?

 

[BeeDubya]

Will we have access to that section too so as to foster discussion?

Don't confuse access to the Integration portion of the website, with the NJI section of the message boards. All the information on the website is available to all NJA/NJLA/NJI pilots. There are two subsections, one for NJA pilots and the other for NJI pilots, but both pilot groups have access to both sections. The sections are separate because we have tailored the information for each pilot group (since each group has different questions/concerns about the process), but we have deliberately made all the information available to all the NJA/NJLA/NJI pilots. There are no secrets.

Now, as for the message boards, no. The subsections will be segregated until the remission by the company of the "final integration notice." The reason for this is to remain in compliance with federal law (RLA and DOL law, specifically), as we do not legally become the bargaining agent for NJI until that notice is sent and we cannot grant them privileges of membership (e.g., access to the entire message board) until that time.

Hope this helps.

Fraternally,
Brian

 

[DO-82 driver]

B, you properly brought to our attention that:

Why do you feel alone, isolated or left out? Did you not have a chance to vote on IBB? These issues were voted on by the membership and ratified. And the basing provisions are not unlimited. Read the LOA (01-013, Subpart B, paragraph (4)(g)) or give me a call if you want to know about basing.

Do you really think many people read anything in the IBB other than Sections 13 or 27?

I'm sure some did and our voices were raised in objections but we were quickly shot down as being anti-new hire and uncaring.

Well, you are certainly correct, we got what we voted for and deserve every bit of it.

 

[BeeDubya]

B, you properly brought to our attention that:

Why do you feel alone, isolated or left out? Did you not have a chance to vote on IBB? These issues were voted on by the membership and ratified. And the basing provisions are not unlimited. Read the LOA (01-013, Subpart B, paragraph (4)(g)) or give me a call if you want to know about basing.

Do you really think many people read anything in the IBB other than Sections 13 or 27?

I'm sure some did and our voices were raised in objections but we were quickly shot down as being anti-new hire and uncaring.

Well, you are certainly correct, we got what we voted for and deserve every bit of it.

I'm sure that many read only a few seections then voted. That was their choice. I have always read the entire TA before voting (even before voting "no" on the 2004 TA) and have always recommended the same to others.

Additionally, the disparities Pervis laments would have occurred with or without the LOA. There have always been Gulfstream Capts junior to NJA capts, and there have always been Gulfstream pilots making more than simmilar DOH NJA pilots. The LOA/Integration does not fix that overnight, but does over time. Without the LOA/Integration, those same disparities would have existed and I serious doubt we could have done much better in court, and it likely would have cost us more in both time and money. Again, Pervis' basing comment is not correct.

Fraternally,
Brian

 

[Pervis]

Great Brian. With all due respect, no negotiations vs no input argument is political crap. Yes, I voted on IBB-NO. I realize we must all live with the majority will, and that's fine. Some sections I was opposed to actually work better than I expected. I'll admit when I'm wrong.

The LOA you refer to was signed on 12-07-07, after the IBB vote. What choice did the membership have in that one? Besides, all that section has to do with is displacement of an NJI pilot's existing base. That includes many bases currently not on our list. Do you deny their basing is more inclusive than ours? An NJI guy I know quite well tells me they can start and finish a tour anywhere they like as well, within reason. No dummy ticket crap. But no big deal there, right?

I count 31 LOAs applicable to the agreement. My wife negotiated $100+ million contracts in her former career, and was floored an agreement would have so many LOAs prior to ratification of the origional contract. But that's another issue all together.

I personally don't necessarily feel alone, but if I were one of 300+ about to be swallowed by the big group on the block, and considering NJI management told those folks a lot of crap over the years contrary to today's reality, I'd feel real lonely. Now their one source of communication is gone (GPAC), and the only news subsequant to that comes out on a public forum after months have gone by. We all need better communication-now.

I've read the FAQs on the joint integration section, and frankly, it's quite generic. When do we get to speak together? The feds and RLA can't say squat if we have a separate web site we can discuss issues freely on. I'm sure we could even garner private donors to pay for such a site if the union can't or won't. BTW, how much do we save since breaking away from the Teamsters?

I have no agenda here, other than a very large interest in fostering good will towards two groups that don't need an "Easty/Westy" situation. Communication beween the two has always been poor, and needs to improve-now. As far as NJI and upgrades, I'll be cautiously optimistic, but I find it real hard to believe a zebra as firmly entrenched as RTS can or would change his stripes so easily. And I mean no disrespect in that statement.