NetJets' Captains need to get over themselves!

[buckeyes95]

To each their own, but quite frankly I could care less if I fly all the legs, no legs, pax legs only or ferry legs only. I get paid the same either way. All I care about is that I don't get called to CMH and/or don't have to fill out any safety reports. To me, that is a successful tour.

 

[B727FA]

Until the pilot has attended their first recurrent training, the SIC shall fly only from the right seat, at the Captain's discretion, regardless of whether there are passengers on board. Once the SIC has attended his/her first recurrent, the SIC may, at the Captain's discretion, fly empty legs from the left seat.

Gutshotdraw, when I see "their first recurrent" do you mean a 6 month ride or their 12 month recurrent at NJI?

Thanks!

 

[gutshotdraw]

B,

First recurrent after six months on the equipment.

Mike,

Even though efficiency has improved, we still fly a fair number of empty legs. This tour was 50-50. Most of the SIC's decline flying from the right seat in favor of ferry legs from the left because flying a Gulfstream from the right seat is a PAIN IN THE ARSE. Given the tiller steering only being on the left, position of the gear handle and other switches, and the "hands on the power lever dance" required by our FOM (SIC advances the levers, then the Captain taps the hands off and takes the PL's until V-1 in case of an abort, in which case it's the Captain's airplane. Then on landing the Captain taps the SIC off the PL's leaving the runway), blah, blah, blah. It's just easier to fly from the left seat whenever possible.

The SIC's get plenty of legs to work on aircraft handling and every passenger leg develops BOTH pilot's customer service skills. I sometimes have the SIC greet the client even when I'm flying the leg so I can be the baggage b!t)h and they can schmooze the folks. Basically, whatever gets the job done safely, efficiently and within the terms of our SOP's.

 

[Willy21]

All I want is standardization. When it comes to flying, left seat or right seat, passenger legs or ferry legs it does not matter to me. It would be nice to know as a SIC what you are going to get instead of having a different set of rules for every PIC I fly with. Yes I know that there will be little things that are up to a PIC's discretion, but please don't rewrite the whole FOM to fit your style.

 

[rettofly]

What is the big deal about which seat you fly in? I know the arguement is trading legs, but I think some people are getting torques around because they dont get to fly left seat.

Don't know about any of you guys, but I'm perfectly capable of screwing up from either seat. Only difference is which side of my face sweats when something comes unglued.

 

[DO-82 driver]

All I want is standardization. Yes I know that there will be little things that are up to a PIC's discretion, but please don't rewrite the whole FOM to fit your style.

Well, I'm glad you recognize the need for standardization. As a Captain I feel the same need. I wish the F/O's would be standardize to the point where they can properly prep a cabin and all the stock on an aircraft.

This is an issue that falls squarely in the lap of the Company.

You, as an F/O, want to know what every Captain is going to do and I, as a Captain, want to know if an F/O is going to preform their duties properly.

Here's the deal as I see it..... As long as an F/O can prove they can do their job, I will afford them duties adherent to their position.

When all is said and done.....Its my responsibilty and I will deligate those responsibilities accordingly. If you don't like it......Oh well. Gear up.... flaps up....coffee, paper ,ice.

I've only had to pull this crap twice in my 10 years of being at NJA. But I have no problem in speaking my mind as any of the F/O's (or junior Captain) I have flown with will testify to. The owner comes first....no IF,ANDS, or BUT!!!!!!!

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

I actually enjoyed this thread... Hey, it is good crashpad entertainment to see how the "other half" lives!

Someone educate this poor piece of scooter trash: What is with all of the seat switching and leg swapping drama? Is there a lack of confidence in the SIC's ability to safely and comfortably land an airplane in which he holds a type rating (passengers or not)? Is it simply that the passengers are more confident if the captain flies the airplane? Why do people care which side of the airplane they sit on? What difference does it make if the paycheck doesn't change?

Seriously! I am not trying to add to the arguement at all, I am just really curious about the cultural differences between airline flying and the frax world. I'm not flamebaiting in the least. I am just curious, so someone indulge me.

The funny thing is, in my flightdeck if the proverbial excrement impacts the air accelerating device, one of the first things I do is hand the physical flying over to the FO. That allows me to step back, look at the big picture and do all of that captain stuff we are supposed to do. From an outside observer's prospective it seems that the culture at NJA is radically different.

For the record: I have been trying to get on at NJA forever. 10,000 hours, 5 years as a 121 captain and no love. If I am ever successful, I personally would be happy to sling gear and talk plenty of legs for the QOL you guys and gals enjoy. I know for a fact that I am not alone in that opinion.

 

[Willy21]

I agree with the stock in the back. I am sick and tired of going out to an airplane on day one to find that the cokes, snacks and jepps are out of date. I am also amazed that there are people that just throw stuff in the snack drawer or liquor cabinet. If you talk to the pics that I fly with they will all tell you that I take at least 30 minutes the first time I am at a locker, take every stock item out to check the date, vacuum the drawers out and restock the airplane.

So if we ever get to fly together you can count on the back being in good shape.

 

[Diesel]

Even though efficiency has improved, we still fly a fair number of empty legs. This tour was 50-50. Most of the SIC's decline flying from the right seat in favor of ferry legs from the left because flying a Gulfstream from the right seat is a PAIN IN THE ARSE. Given the tiller steering only being on the left, position of the gear handle and other switches, and the "hands on the power lever dance" required by our FOM (SIC advances the levers, then the Captain taps the hands off and takes the PL's until V-1 in case of an abort, in which case it's the Captain's airplane. Then on landing the Captain taps the SIC off the PL's leaving the runway), blah, blah, blah. It's just easier to fly from the left seat whenever possible.

I haven't flown a leg from the left seat yet. I'm trying to spend my entire tour in the right seat of the GIV since I'm seatlocked I'm not moving.

Wolfy tried to get me to swap but its not happening.

As far as the rest of the duties I spent 7 years greeting pax and chatting them up. Now I just want to throw bags, check the oil, and do the walkaround in the rain.

 

[Willy21]

Seriously! I am not trying to add to the arguement at all, I am just really curious about the cultural differences between airline flying and the frax world. I'm not flamebaiting in the least. I am just curious, so someone indulge me.

In my opinion this has been the culture at NetJets all along. The reason this is coming out now is we have two almost three year SIC's on property that are looking at two to three more years of putting up with the 2%ers.

There are also a fair amount of people hired in the last three years that had zero corporate time before NetJets. They are having a hard time learning that we do more than fly. I see this every now and then by the condition an aircraft is left to the next crew in. (stock, jepps, interior cleaning...)

DO-82 has a valid argument. If a SIC wants to get on a captian for not being standardized then he must be standard himself.

 

[Buckeye]

Most of the airplanes I encounter that have not been stocked are crewed by two captains. Evidently one of them won't their job and the other doesn't bother to check, sorry if it upsets anyone.
DO-82 driver just because you might be the Capt, doesn't mean I am going to blindly trust that you are infallible. As far as FO standardization, it is a direct reflection of our Capts. People tend to blurr where SOP's and Pilot Techniques cross over. Some guys believe their Technique are SOP's. This all being said the vast majority of guys are great. One has to remember that when somebody is having a bad day regardless of seat, there is some other factor ie...family issues, not feeling good, fatigue, or some other type of stress. Maybe one of these days we will all hold hands and sing that old faithful song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmQVWH9u8Xo

 

[hecbir]

see that before the hot pilots the know it all till one day the company goes kaput and them back to be humble

 

[Club ORD FO]

How can you guys handle switching seats all time? It takes a whole day just to be happy with my seat adjustment settings.

 

[CRJFlyer]

Agree with Buckeye 100%..Last tour 2 captains paired. I get on the plane with the more senior of the two. He tells me before the other captain left he stocked, cleaned, etc.... Umm no. I had to vacuum, wipe down the sink, and re-organize the mess of stock dumped in the back. (mostly cause I'm an organization nerd when it comes to extra stock)..

It's almost always 2 captains flying together that I have to double check everything. Also as far as customer service goes, I've seen my fair share of "senior 6 year guys" that don't bother to greet pax in the FBO, and don't seem to care that there are pax on board... I flew with a guy that was so bent outta shape with the stock crash that he barely lifted an eye when a pax said hello to him. Even I felt bad for the pax.

Love NJ, but it does go both ways with some of the captains.

 

[av8trinabarrel]

see that before the hot pilots the know it all till one day the company goes kaput and them back to be humble

Harumffffff too that..whatever you said, I am all in! After consuming my 6th Paulaner, I can see your delima. Not bad for your first postimp:

 

[skiandsurf]

Couple of thoughts on the thread...

Why the seat swapping? I think its a "corporate jet thing". I think that most all of the flying in a corporate jet is done from the left seat. All training is done from the left seat. And back in the day, upgrades were so fast that it was good to have time in the left seat.


Dirty planes? I will agree that 2 PICs paired up will usually have an unstocked and dirty plane.


Do I like this job? absolutely.

Am I applying to the airlines? absolutely NOT.

 

[Mike Jenvey]

I fly with the luxury of a FA now, but I well remember the clean/stock hassle from the H800. We don’t treat it as necessarily a FO’s job, although if the captain is busy dealing with a tech issue or sorting out a schedule revision, etc, then yes, the FO is lumbered! However, if it was my sector & the FO was escorting the pax through the FBO/Terminal, then once I had the walkround/paperwork complete, then there was no point waiting for the FO to come back, I would start on the cleaning or restock as appropriate. Likewise, on the Falcon, if there is a heap of cleaning up to do, there is no point leaving it all to the FA to cope with, it just delays the crew getting to the hotel.

In Europe, we have specialist cleaning/stock agents at our main FBO locations. You land, give them a stock list, they either have most items on their van, or get them from the stock lock-up, then you get the aircraft cabin cleaned. Super deal! We also have “On-Site Reps” (OSRs) at our major FBOs to help meet/greet the pax & escort them to/from the aircraft. The OSRs make a big difference & allow crews to concentrate on the aircraft turnround, etc.

 

[stingray]

On my 1st released tour as a captain on the X, Im swapping legs with the FO I just met. An he even flew out of the coveted left seat on the repo's and the right seat when paxs on board.
By the way a GOLDSEAL FLIGHT instuctor does not mean squat

 

[rondo]

A few things to consider porter.

In the corporate/fractional arena- the captain assumes all responsibility. Any complaints or issues fall on their shoulders. One day its will be your time to decide.

Your original post about your qualifications, x-wind techniques and gold seal cfi give me the impression you have that chuck yeager attitude. So what, you have 5000hrs you should be sharp. That type of top gun "know it all" attitude that turns people off and will delay your progress.

Just relax and enjoy the job or if its that bad find another one.

 

[Mike Jenvey]

<<<< By the way a GOLDSEAL FLIGHT instuctor does not mean squat >>>>

Well, it's mentioned in the FAA Aviation Instructor's Handbook 2008:

Another way is to work toward the Gold Seal Flight Instructor Certificate. Accomplishing the requirements of the certificate is evidence the instructor has performed at a very high level as a flight instructor. See AC 61-65, Certification: Pilots and Flight and Ground Instructors, for a list of requirements for earning this certificate.

Also, in an FAA Advisory Circular AC No: 61-65D - I don't know if that's the current AC on the subject, but lots of flight schools in the USA seem to emphasise the Gold Seal certification as highly regarded:

The FAA issues the coveted Gold Seal Flight Instructor certificates only to those instructors who give a lot of flight instruction and whose students successfully pass checkrides.
This means you can have a high degree of confidence that the training you are paying for is up to date, accurate, and efficient. Inefficient training is expensive, and having to retake a flight test can cost hundreds of dollars more. You have the right to expect to be given good training and to pass your flight test first time. A Gold Seal CFI certificate is the seal of approval the FAA gives to exceptional instructors.

 

[Taildraggaah]

...If you really need to fly passenger legs so bad I suggest going to Flight Options. We usually swap in and out of the left seat every other day...

Good point. I fly for a straight 91 operation. From day 1 out of the Sim, we are able to fly left seat with passengers in the back, as a copilot (we fly almost no empty legs). A captain should be comfortable in either seat manipulating the controls in all phases of flight.

Porter I agree with your frustration but you sound like you have an ego problem with your captains position (no pun intended) on the subject.

No offense but when you start a new job it doesn't matter if you flew the space shuttle previously on your days off from flying Air Force One. Don't go shoving your bazillion, Gold Seal, night IMC, SE, NDB to MINS, no electrics, freezing rain, gravel strip, raw data while holding, timed to a circling, inverted approachs, all on the same flight while instructing a pre solo student, of flying expertise. You sound like a cry baby and a politician at the same time...

 

[imacdog]

In the corporate/fractional arena- the captain assumes all responsibility. Any complaints or issues fall on their shoulders. One day its will be your time to decide.

That statement is not accurate at NJA.

 

[flyipilot]

A few things to consider porter.

In the corporate/fractional arena- the captain assumes all responsibility. Any complaints or issues fall on their shoulders. One day its will be your time to decide.

According to the NTSB and the FAA this is 100% incorrect. Both pilots are responsible and both get nailed when the Capt or the FO screws up. THe Capt has the ultimate decision making of the aircraft but, trust me, I will never let any Capt fly me into a "can of worms" or get me killed. I hope and expect him to do the same for me. It is a 2 way street and the days of "king" are over. Don't believe me? Go to the NTSB sight and look at their decisions on cases. In fact, in opne case they call the FO "PIC" when he was manipulating the controls last year. In addition look at our FOM...it states both the Capt and the FO are equally responsible to know the status and contion of all maintenance done on a given airplane they fly. Both. So, I ask to see the book and ask about items MEL'd. I can be in trouble if I get ramped by an FAA guy and he asks me. It will not wash with them for me to refer him to my Capt.

The key to any tour is to respect each other, communicate with each other about everything, and have FUN! Makes the tours great. An ego has no room in our small planes (left or right seat), we are a team and our goal is the same...exceptional and safe service to all our valued owners and customers!

 

[-FlyAuburn-]

There is thread about this now on the NJASAP board titled "Sorting it Out". Must have gotten someone's attention. I encourage all NJ pilots that have access to take the discussion to that forum. This shouldn't have been posted here. It's an internal matter. My two cents.

 

[glasspilot]

To the Gold Seal weenies...

"Those that can, do.

Those that can't, teach.

Those that can't teach, evaluate."

If you're a gold sealer and proud enough of it to expect special treatment like automatic trust from day one then you might be a dork.

I've seen guys with tens of thousands of hours in heavy equipment that fly horrible. I've seen guys with relatively little time fly great. I treat every FO equal and I distrust your flying skill until I see it. It usually takes a taxi out to know but I'm gonna see ya fly once before you get the live legs, period. Gold Seal or not.

 

[CRJFlyer]

To the Gold Seal weenies...

I treat every FO equal and I distrust your flying skill until I see it. It usually takes a taxi out to know but I'm gonna see ya fly once before you get the live legs, period. Gold Seal or not.

ahhh... The word distrust is a heavy word.. I have never busted an alt. tried to take off the wrong runway, had a runway incursion etc... (knock on wood). But I've had 4 captains attempt those this year alone. LAX doesn't like it when you invade their airspace going into SMO either. Guy tried that one too because he had it in his mind to do right traffic instead of left traffic.

Not complaining, just sayin... the benefit of the doubt would be nice sometimes.

 

[NJIGUY]

Go flight Instruct then...

 

[Diesel]

Wah Wah Wah......

There is still a captains prerogative.

The world needs ditch diggers too.

 

[Cavpilot]

see that before the hot pilots the know it all till one day the company goes kaput and them back to be humble

Uhhh yeah, what he said.

 

[acaTerry]

I must have had some real bad jobs in the past because I just don't care what seat (except for pay!) or what legs, etc. I don't care if I have to stock, I don't care if I have to vacuum. I don't car if my crew meal is missing 2 slices of citrus. I just enjoy knowing that every second Friday I get $$$ in the bank and have decent time off. And time to play my guitar at the hotel.