Net Jets Offers

[wolfpackpilot]

Why are NJI FOs making so much more than F2000 or G200 FOs when they frequently fly many of the same routes or substitute for each other?

2 can play this game:

Why are BBJ FO's making so much more than NJI FO's when they freguently fly many of the same routes or substitute for each other?




Answer: its called the food chain

 

[Heavy Set]

2 can play this game:

Why are BBJ FO's making so much more than NJI FO's when they freguently fly many of the same routes or substitute for each other?




Answer: its called the food chain

No need to get that defensive. Fine, then pay the BBJ FO the same as the GIV/GV FO. In the part 91 world, these positions are compensated much better. This is not a race here, we are talking about paying pilots their fair market value. Do you really think $60K per year for a 5th year Citation X Captain is fair? Does anyone think that is fair? Would you be upset if you were on that side of the fence and were paid that amount to fly a Citation X? If they are not paid what they are worth, then they will leave - and that is why NJA is experiencing such attrition. No big surprise.

Alright Wolfpack, tell me this - why should NJA pilots not be allowed to fly everything from the Ultra to the GV when their counterparts at NJE can fly everything from the Bravo to the GV? There is no logical rationale for that difference. What rationale can be used to keep the two divisions separate in your mind given the overlap in operations and the frequent substitution of aircraft from both fleets?

 

[GVFlyer]

Alright Wolfpack, tell me this - why should NJA pilots not be allowed to fly everything from the Ultra to the GV when their counterparts at NJE can fly everything from the Bravo to the GV? There is no logical rationale for that difference. What rationale can be used to keep the two divisions separate in your mind given the overlap in operations and the frequent substitution of aircraft from both fleets?

Easy answer. It's a thing called scope. When EJI/NJI was formed in 1995 the Teamsters agreed and wrote into the EJA/NJA contract that the Gulfstream operation would be an exception to scope. NJI is currently an autonomous company with their own president, dispatch and maintenance operations chartered in South Carolina, a Right to Work state (which means they cannot be forced into a union - they have to vote it on board). NJI has no greater relationship to NJA than do the vendors you sell trips off to or than NetJets Large Aircraft which is an independent operating company flying BBJ's with their own work rules and pay schedules chartered in Bradley, Connecticut.

GV

 

[loverobot]

Easy answer. It's a thing called scope. When EJI/NJI was formed in 1995 the Teamsters agreed and wrote into the EJA/NJA contract that the Gulfstream operation would be an exception to scope. NJI is currently an autonomous company with their own president, dispatch and maintenance operations chartered in South Carolina, a Right to Work state (which means they cannot be forced into a union - they have to vote it on board). NJI has no greater relationship to NJA than do the vendors you sell trips off to or than NetJets Large Aircraft which is an independent operating company flying BBJ's with their own work rules and pay schedules chartered in Bradley, Connecticut.

GV

Really? I had no idea they were so seperate. Was it the paint scheme, the QS tailnumbers, the employee ID's, the advertisements, the trading up and down of fleets, the Berkshire thing, the Santulli thing, the white plains and TEB thing. Somehow these companies are kept seperate when its convienent, and included together when its convienent. News Flash: you all work for the same company.

 

[HotelMonkey]

PARK THEM!

 

[linder]

Sounds like frustration is setting in since it was disclosed to the membership that NJA is refusing to even negotiate the Gulfstream subject.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Cost of Living Adjustments since the contract became amendable:

YEAR......COLA
2001......2.6%
2002......1.4%
2003......2.1%
2004......2.7%
Total......8.8%

Source: Social Security Administration
http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/COLA/colaseries.html

Oh and your math is wrong above. The effect of COLAs is NOT additive.

BTW, better take a course in statistics or Math 101, before you make more of a fool of yourself adding inflation rates.

If you guys are so worried about the precise way cola compounds itself, then why didnt you correct the union people who did the simple addition in the first place, rather than fall all over yourselves to point this minor issue out when I correct their COLA figures?

And if you want the precise impact, based on compounding, then its 9.08% instead of 8.8%....

Looks like that company raise isnt as bad as you want to paint it....

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

Anybody else see a comparison with NJ and New Orleans? I mean jesus just let them sit in their own pi$$ and $hit. The company is doing the same to us.

FacFriend wants to show us how strong they are and drive the pilots out of the buisness. Sorry it's netjets aviation. Without the pilots it's just poor customer service and crappy scheduling.

Yeah it's elitist but so what. Negotiations have stalled because the company won't even provide a decent livable wage. Spin it any way you want but it's just sad. Just shows how much they respect the pilots. Let it burn like New Orleans.

Gooose pull the handle!

Diesel, first, let me start by saying that i've enjoyed all of your previous post.

I think you might consider a retraction on this one. Comparing the raise you are looking for or the relative conditions that you endure flying a private jet, to the plight and death of the people in Louisiana is insane and insensitive. I have never seen such a distasteful and insensitive post.

Ace

 

[BE200Driver]

I am an outsider to all the NJ arguments but have a couple questions.

1. Does NJ disclose what the payscales are before employment?

2. Does the value of a NJ pilot increase over time?

3. Does NJ keep anyone from making their own decisions regarding their career path?

4. If I told you that my boss hasen't given me a raise in the last two years, wouldn't the majority of NJ guys here tell me to stop crying and get another job if I didn't like it?

No flame please (lol, I can't wait to see it). But who is holding a gun to anyone's head at NJ? Just curious.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

No need to get that defensive.

Alright Wolfpack, tell me this - why should NJA pilots not be allowed to fly everything from the Ultra to the GV when their counterparts at NJE can fly everything from the Bravo to the GV? There is no logical rationale for that difference. What rationale can be used to keep the two divisions separate in your mind given the overlap in operations and the frequent substitution of aircraft from both fleets?

Heavy,

No defense at all, I’m only pointing out what I see is the obvious. I'm personally happy to see the BBJ scale where they are. I think those wages are well deserved by the pilots.

To answer your question. Setting aside the fact NJE was created as a single company to operate all NJE aircraft, there is a pecking order over there. New hires don’t waltz right into the G planes, just as NJA new hires don’t get 737 types.

The rationale to have created NJI has been expounded on threads for years. My only thought on why it remains separate is economics. NJI is a viable resource to NetJets if and when they wanted to raise cash through a sell off . Because we operate 1 aircraft type, (and will only) have our own infrastructure, etc. we are a pre-packaged deal if and when that time ever came. Of course this is my own opinion, which doesn’t mean much.

Once NJA receives a pay raise, combined with larger aircraft (BBJ, Falcon’s, I see them both all over Europe) you guys will slowly but surely forget about 42 Gulfstreams operated by a bunch of (what you call) “Old Farts”. And this unnecessary bitter and useless argument will finally be put to bed.

Fly Safe Heavy,



Wolfpack

(vs. Virginia tonight at 7:45pm)

 

[wolfpackpilot]

News Flash: you all work for the same company.

You are incorrect sir. NJA and NJI are completely separate companies which are owned and operated by the same corporation. NetJets is in turn owned by Berkshire Hathaway who also owns major shares of Geico and Dairy Queen.

If your statement about working for the same company were true, we should all be flying in a DQ uniform and get free car insurance.

 

[You're right]

PARK THEM!

Nah, no thanks Monkey--- "park them" implies "all" of them. Let's make it "some of them" and see what happens. (I'm not singling you out Monkey. I've read some of your posts and you seem level headed) Diesel, on the other hand, you've been here what 2, maybe 3 years. Do you think your "number" is high enough?

The company management understands the severity of what's going on (slowdown) and I can not imagine will stand for it much longer. The BUSINESS can not stand for it much longer (losing owners, long delays, etc).

This is now bigger than a "pay raise", as some of you have already started to see and understand. Your current union leadership does not want a pay raise and better schedules for its members. The current leadership wants the chance to unionize the entire fractional industry under their new union. This will NOT work with a SERVICE company. You guys are simply pawns in the little chess game you think is "pay/scope".

"Tick tock" to Diesel/Fracster and the rest that don't understand the real game. Looks like I will be lucky to not have the "protection" of a union number.

Never thought I would say this but "size doesn't matter".

 

[abenaki]

CMHTROLL


You are a gifted propagandist, no doubt of that. My guess is that you are "Bridgeway Bob" or closely affiliated with him.

But, just because you SAY something doesn't make it true. "Spin" does not equate to the truth.

The current MEC did not sabotage the "POSTA" of last year. If you had attended the road shows, you would have seen the PILOTS anger at what was being force-fed to them. I am not going to relate the deficiencies of that TA because it has been thrashed around so much already.....suffice to say that it was, in many ways, a REGRESSIVE contract and recognized as such by 82% of the pilots.

To say that management has "negotiated in good faith" flies in the face of their admitted delays in the last 4 years, their walking out of negotiations the other day not to return until lat ein the afternoon and YOUR failure to answer my direct question at the beginning of this thread as to whether offering LESS today than a year ago is considered "negotiating in good faith"......clearly, it is not.

The union busting campaign is just that. RTS and BB did not bring in a well-known union busting law firm without a reason. Their intent is to bust the union which is made of pilots and their families and their intent is not to negotiate in good faith.

The problem is that we have all seen these tactics before for nearly thirty years in this industry. The plays are all old and of no suprise. The current FUD campaign is just another play out of the book. BB saying that we are the cause of why he can't hire enough pilots and then threatens furloughs is plain contradictory.....He can't get enough pilots so he's goingto furlough? Huh?



There is obviously little that can be reasoned on this board. The tensions are too high and the anxiety and frustration make decent "conversation" impossible.

So, I am outta here....

Take care...God bless us ALL for each one of us, whether CMH employee or pilot is at the mercy of this process that could be ended in 4 hours of negotiations according to the negotiating team....the rest is just gamesmanship.

Buh bye, now.

 

[hydrarkt]

abenaki, don't go. Your posts are true and correct and allow others to view what is really happening.. not the spin spewed by CMHTroll and FamilyGuy.

About NJI.. it's not that the pilot's of NJA care about flying a GV. It's not that the Teamsters want more members. We want single carrier status because we, the pilots at NJA, want to keep our jobs. NetJets management, aka Santulli, would have no qualms about shutting down NJA and moving everything to NJI, even though it would make no financial sense, just because of his ego and desire to have a no union shop. THAT is the main reason we want single carrier status... to protect our jobs. Is that too much to ask??

 

[cgmason1]

2 can play this game:

Why are BBJ FO's making so much more than NJI FO's when they freguently fly many of the same routes or substitute for each other?

Answer: its called the food chain

Actually if you compare the two-NJI F/O's make more.
Whats first year pay on the BBJ as an F/O- around 50K.
Whats first year pay on the GIV/GV- 65K or more.
I know there are no first year F/O's on the BBJ-but since your comparing pay scales.

Bottom line is NJA Mgt blows.
They do not understand taking care of their people and that a work force that has good morale is good for your company.

What comes around goes around.

Fly Safe
Chuck