Net Jets Offers

[squonk]

In life you rarely will get what you deserve

How true. We will get what we fight for. I know your job is to stand in the way of that, so please move aside and let the combatants move into the arena.

 

[FamilyGuy]

FAMILY GUY
1) I didn't ask about what I thought I deserved.....You are all thinking we are asking for the moon here and thus that is the reason for the state of things, I was asking what YOU think "I" deserve.

What's the point? Cant you find enough stuff on this board to argue about already?

But I'll play your game....

To properly answer your question, you need to understand my thinking on jobs and pay.

First of all, IMHO, people should pursue a job they enjoy and are passionate about. Making lots of money is not an admirable end goal....it's nice if it happens, especially if you get it doing something you love, but its just crazy to perform a job you hate simply to make more money....life's too short.

Second, again IMHO, the job should be close to your family, if possible. That should be self-explanatory.

Third, the company culture and atmosphere should be of a nature that you agree with and can fit in with. Again, life's too short. The job itself can be enjoyable but if the company culture is counter to your own it will just cause a lot of strife and headaches for you. There are lots of companies out there in every line of work. If one doesnt have a culture that fits you, move on and find another. (Its a lot like marriage in this regard...choose your partners wisely, or you'll have a lot of frustration in your life and you'll be poorer in the end)

Fourth, the pay and benefits should meet your needs. I'm not on this planet to work. Work is a means to an end for me. It pays my bills, supports my family, and allows me to pursue activities that I truly enjoy. So long as I find a situation where the first three points are covered, all I'm really worried about is being able to pay my bills.

As for me, I love my job, Columbus is home for me (big bonus in being able to go see the buckeyes), this is the best company I've found so far in terms of taking care employees (I've worked for a lot of companies and seen truly antagonistic attitudes towards employees), and the wages allows me to pay my bills each month, with some due diligence on my part when it comes to budgeting. The benefits are great too - generous 401k, vision, dental, medical, etc....

So, now that you have a better appreciation for my line of thinking on jobs and pay, I can answer your question on what I think you should earn...

Its been stated on this board earlier that most people are flying because its a passion for them. They'd rather do that than sit behind some desk pushing paper. SO the first criteria appears to be met.

The company allows people to choose a gateway to base from, so I think most of our pilots are able to be close to their families, which fulfills the second criteria.

The third criteria is a personal fit, so you will need to answer that question. Again, I dont know how many companies you've worked at, but NetJets has been the best I've found to date for taking care of their people.

Fourth criteria - pay and benefits. The union stated that our pilots are making between $50,000 and $72,000. Seeing as how inflation has increased 9.08% over the last four years, it would be reasonable to expect a raise that exceeds that. Most people want to continue to gain ground, so I would say at least double the inflation rate, so the raise should start around 18% in real terms, everything else being equal.

Of course, we both know that the pilots pay would continue to advance at a rate that is more than double the rate of inflation, since you also get annual raises for years of service, in addition to the opportunity to reset the scale every time the contract is renegotiated.

FAMILY GUY

2) You said, "Currently there is a surplus of pilots in the marketplace."

But, according to BB, few of them are coming to NJA because of the current deplorable conditions (of course, the fact that pilots aren't applying here is our fault, too.....I know, I know)......So, to continue his logic, because he can't get enough pilots, he's going to furlough......Sorry, how does that logically follow?

So, there really ISN'T a surplus of pilots for NJA, is there? So, he may actually have to change things to attract the pilots he says he needs to fill the seats on all the pending aircraft orders. Yes? The logic dictates that, does it not?

That's some twisted logic....

Simple facts - there are thousands of pilots laid off from the legacy carriers. Wages industry wide are decreasing, and decreasing rapidly. The only reason NJA is not meeting its goals is because the pilots are actively waging a "do not come here" campaign, as evidenced in numerous threads on this board. Does this campaign change the facts that there is a surplus of pilots in the industry? NO.

FAMILY GUY
The only way we can convince companies to pay more is to vote with our feet?
Sorry, I don't get that one. There are many other ways to convince a company to pay more.

Yeah...they are called extortion, blackmail, arm-twisting, etc....

How else would you characterize people that deliberately under-perform, sabotage, and undermine the company's performance and publicly state that things will return to normal when our demands are met?

Personally, I do not condone some of the petty behaviors that you refer to. That is not how I operate nor is it how a majority of the pilots are operating. However, while you condem those for doing those things, how about looking at the company's behavior regarding the contract? It would seem that with over $12 million in contract violations paid thus far (with a LOT more coming), the company cannot call itself lilly white while condeming the behavior of a few. This company does willfully ignore the provisions of the contract and LOA's that they agreed to.

Since I dont work in the pilot ops side, its hard for me to comment on contract violations when I dont have the details. Can you share them? What were the violations and what were the awards?

Absent the details, it sounds like the process is working and people are being held accountable if a contract provision is violated.

Now, are you going to support the company firing people that sabotage the operation or are you going to support using your dues to defend them and their behavior?

 

[Hogprint]

Leader of the geek squad posted:

Simple facts - there are thousands of pilots laid off from the legacy carriers. Wages industry wide are decreasing, and decreasing rapidly. The only reason NJA is not meeting its goals is because the pilots are actively waging a "do not come here" campaign, as evidenced in numerous threads on this board. Does this campaign change the facts that there is a surplus of pilots in the industry? NO.

Really. Is this the ONLY reason we're not meeting our goals? I guess working on an EIGHT YEAR OLD contract has NOTHING to do with it. I guess a labor/pilot hating management team has NOTHING to do with it.
Lowest paid pilots in the industry...NOTHING to do with it....need I go on?

I see your a true conspiracy theorist. A "do not come here" campaign. I guess in your world all the people that have left this place this year were part of a "please leave here" campaign?

Since I dont work in the pilot ops side, its hard for me to comment on contract violations when I dont have the details. Can you share them? What were the violations and what were the awards?

I would suggest walking over and talking to a Flight Manager. They should be up to speed on some of the new LOAs. Monies totaling in the Millions.

We will change the culture of "push them and let them grieve it later" that is prevalent here. They got away with this for years. I guess you can only poke the bear for so long.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Really. Is this the ONLY reason we're not meeting our goals? I guess working on an EIGHT YEAR OLD contract has NOTHING to do with it.

Now its an eight year old contract? This is like fishing tales....they keep getting bigger.

I thought we agreed long ago that BOTH sides were at fault here, but it looks like we are due for a recap...The contract has been amendable since 2001....the company has been negotiating with your representatives since that time. The company and the union reached an agreement in 2004, which the pilots voted down. The pilots subsequently voted out the union leadership, voted in new leaders, changed locals, and started at square one on negotiations. The company has been at the table the whole time, but they can only proceed as fast as the union wants to proceed. If the union elects to spend 3 years renegotiating every clause in the contract before they get to pay, what can the company do?

I guess a labor/pilot hating management team has NOTHING to do with it.

Really? The non-union employees in the flight center dont seem to have any problems. NJI doesnt seem to have any problems. EJM doesnt seem to have any problems. NJE doesnt seem to have any problems.

How can 4 other operating companies not have a problem, but the one union-represented company does? things that make you go hmmmmm....

Really. Is this the ONLY reason we're not meeting our goals? I guess working on an EIGHT YEAR OLD contract has NOTHING to do with it. I guess a labor/pilot hating management team has NOTHING to do with it.
Lowest paid pilots in the industry...NOTHING to do with it....need I go on?

Yes, I think you should go on Hogprint....cause you're singing a far different tune than when you posted this just a month ago:

Our union has delivered on most things, just not pay. The other frax best us only on pay, and it's just a couple of grand more a year.

things that make you go hmmmmmmm......

 

[dsptchrnja]

Leader of the geek squad posted:

Not really impressed. A real man can have an adult debate without resorting to belittlement (particularly when your both on the same team). Usually that's reserved for those who feel threatened.

 

[Diesel]

ahhh familyguy still working the company line. Still taking the time to post what the company pays you to post.

THERE ARE THOSE THAT WORK THE LINE AND THOSE THAT DON"T.

LOOK AT ALL THE POSTS MADE BY THOSE THAT DON'T.

WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME THEY KISSED THEIR WIFE GOODBYE AND WALKED OUT THE DOOR FOR 7 DAYS.

ENOUGH ALLREADY.

 

[FamilyGuy]

ahhh familyguy still working the company line. Still taking the time to post what the company pays you to post.

THERE ARE THOSE THAT WORK THE LINE AND THOSE THAT DON"T.

LOOK AT ALL THE POSTS MADE BY THOSE THAT DON'T.

WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME THEY KISSED THEIR WIFE GOODBYE AND WALKED OUT THE DOOR FOR 7 DAYS.

ENOUGH ALLREADY.

No, I've just done hardship tours overseas for a year at a time.

How about you?

Seven days doesnt sound so bad, does it? Especially when it means you get seven days WITH them after the seven days of tour are up.

 

[Diesel]

Look i can copy and paste too.

Dude honestly i thank you for your sacrifice for the country but that's apples and oranges.

It has nothing to do with negotiations or what's going on at NJA.

 

[hydrarkt]

EJM doesnt seem to have any problems.

Really??? Gee, that's not what was told to me by the several pilots from EJM who were FURLOUGHED. You might ask them if they had a problem before you make dumb ass remarks that you know nothing about.

The company violates the CBA EVERY tour. That's why Arbitrators have already ruled in the PILOTS' FAVOR on 3 class action grievances so far this quarter. One award was over 5.5 million dollars. Apparently the other is MUCH larger (and the company appealed it to Federal court... good luck . Now why would a neutral arbitrator decide in the pilots' favor on these grievances if the company hadn't violated the contract continuously???

 

[Hogprint]

Now its an eight year old contract? This is like fishing tales....they keep getting bigger.

When was this contract agreed to by the Union and company? You do the math.

I thought we agreed long ago that BOTH sides were at fault here, but it looks like we are due for a recap...The contract has been amendable since 2001....the company has been negotiating with your representatives since that time. The company and the union reached an agreement in 2004, which the pilots voted down. The pilots subsequently voted out the union leadership, voted in new leaders, changed locals, and started at square one on negotiations. The company has been at the table the whole time, but they can only proceed as fast as the union wants to proceed. If the union elects to spend 3 years renegotiating every clause in the contract before they get to pay, what can the company do?

So what are you saying? The Union hasn't been at the table? The contract we're working under needed to be revised. It had more holes that swiss cheese. Not buying this FG.


Really? The non-union employees in the flight center dont seem to have any problems. NJI doesnt seem to have any problems. EJM doesnt seem to have any problems. NJE doesnt seem to have any problems.

How can 4 other operating companies not have a problem, but the one union-represented company does? things that make you go hmmmmm....

With all the time the geek squad spends on here jousting with us, I'd say YOU have a problem with us.

NJI has a problem with us wanting to include them on scope.

EJM laid off pilots three years ago...I'd say that's a HUGE problem. We hired a couple of them. Look them up and ask how they liked being on the short end of the stick with no union protection.


Yes, I think you should go on Hogprint....cause you're singing a far different tune than when you posted this just a month ago:
things that make you go hmmmmmmm......

What's your point? Taken out of context, I'm sure.

 

[FLYLOW22]

STMFD...

 

[rice]

Now its an eight year old contract? This is like fishing tales....they keep getting bigger.

Really? The non-union employees in the flight center dont seem to have any problems. NJI doesnt seem to have any problems. EJM doesnt seem to have any problems. NJE doesnt seem to have any problems.

How can 4 other operating companies not have a problem, but the one union-represented company does? things that make you go hmmmmm..........

FG,
I don't have a dog in this fight and for that reason alone my opinion probably doesn't matter to most in the fractional industry but YOUR SCHTICK IS GETTING REALLY OLD!!!! I hope for your sake you are a paid propagandist for the company because if you're not I'd hate to think what your life will be like once the dust settles from this.
Your points of view used to be entertaining but now they've just become old and boring drivel. I'm glad I don't work for NJA for no other reason than I'd have to deal with the likes of you and your kind on a daily basis. Time for you to take a much needed break and step away from the computer until you can muster some cogent thoughts.

 

[steel]

FLYLOW22....I'm sorry, but I don't think I heard you.





Did you say?





STMFD!

 

[FamilyGuy]

FG, I hope for your sake you are a paid propagandist for the company because if you're not I'd hate to think what your life will be like once the dust settles from this.

Why?

Are you suggesting that the fine professionals that fly for NJA would stoop to underhanded shenanigans in an attempt to make someone's life miserable simply because that person exercised their right to free speech and voiced an opinion that doesnt support the union's stated positions?

I'm not a paid propagandist, just a long term NetJets employee who likes working here. Thank you for your concern. I'm sure everything will be fine.

 

[Ultra Grump]

That's simply not true. Even when the Gulfstreams were scheduled from Columbus, they had their own scheduling cell headed by Liz T. I had know her previously from Andrews AFB where she commanded the Navy Gulfstream Detachment. We had tried hard to recruit her at Gulfstream, but EJI/NJI gave her a better offer.

I have toured the Gulfstream dispatch activity at Okatie and they schedule their own assets. As Wolfpack has suggested the two scheduling elements at times coordinate with one another, but the basic thrust of the Okatie operation is to take care of Gulfstream owners.

GV

Say whatever you want if it makes you feel better. I sat there and watched it happen. I watched him access the daily schedules of all coast-to-coast aircraft in our fleet and NJI's. He assigned the trip to an NJI G without consulting anyone.

If you went a couple doors down you could have watched another NJA employee work an issue with booking a vendor aircraft for an NJA owner just as easily. It wouldn't make that vendor any less autonomous than doing the same thing with NJI, would it?

Yes, it would. The employee booking the flight with another company would not have complete access to that vendor's aircraft schedules and ability to schedule them wherever he wanted. That's the difference.

I also don't see any pictures of vendor aircraft in the NetJets brochures or on the website - I see plenty of Gulfstreams. I also don't see any mention that NJA and NJI are separate companies and are not seamlessly integrated. Why do you think that is?

Not to mention what you say doesn't quite jive with what GVFlyer just said.