Net Jets Offers

[abenaki]

Thank you hydrarkt....your comments are much appreciated. However, I find the focus here to be one that my life can do without.

I will however, add one more thing......


This whole negotiations comes down to the NJA pilots wanting nothing more than their counterparts at NJI or NJE.....

That means:

Similar pay.

Similar benefits such as fly from home.

RTS et al are willing to give these things to those entities yet somehow cannot do the same for us.

So, it is clear that these negotiations have nothing to do with money in that some of what we ask for costs LESS than what is currently being done...i.e. everyone knows that the 7/7 schedule is more efficient than the 17-day schedule yet we've fought for 4 years to obtain it.

This whole thing is about power, control and ego. RTS reportedly hates unions and this is his attempt at breaking ours. Whether he chooses to flush his company to achieve that goal is up to him and his union busting lawyers.

It would not be the first time in history that someone's ego unnecessarily trashed a fine company and one that I have been proud to work for. We will have to see if he is willing to do that.

To pretend that the company has negotiated in good faith while offering less and less at the table is pure fantasy and spin. To pretend that we are not grossly underpaid is also pure fiction when all's you have to do is compare our salaries to that of NJE pilots flying the same aircraft or recognize that their offer of the 10th percentile of NBAA standards is grossly low.

Walking out of negotiations that THEY asked for early in the day and then not returning until 4PM is not reflective of a group desiring to complete the contract. It is pure gamesmanship of the most vile form.

May God have mercy.......

 

[FAcFriend]

Walking out of negotiations that THEY asked for early in the day and then not returning until 4PM is not reflective of a group desiring to complete the contract. It is pure gamesmanship of the most vile form.

.....

You have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Diesel]

FacFriend you do?

Please enlighten us how you know more than we do?

 

[BE200Driver]

I am an outsider to all the NJ arguments but have a couple questions.

1. Does NJ disclose what the payscales are before employment?

2. Does the value of a NJ pilot increase over time?

3. Does NJ keep anyone from making their own decisions regarding their career path?

4. If I told you that my boss hasen't given me a raise in the last two years, wouldn't the majority of NJ guys here tell me to stop crying and get another job if I didn't like it?

No flame please (lol, I can't wait to see it). But who is holding a gun to anyone's head at NJ? Just curious.

Guess nobody can answer some simple questions? LOL

 

[Heavy Set]

Heavy,

No defense at all, I’m only pointing out what I see is the obvious. I'm personally happy to see the BBJ scale where they are. I think those wages are well deserved by the pilots.

To answer your question. Setting aside the fact NJE was created as a single company to operate all NJE aircraft, there is a pecking order over there. New hires don’t waltz right into the G planes, just as NJA new hires don’t get 737 types.

The rationale to have created NJI has been expounded on threads for years. My only thought on why it remains separate is economics. NJI is a viable resource to NetJets if and when they wanted to raise cash through a sell off . Because we operate 1 aircraft type, (and will only) have our own infrastructure, etc. we are a pre-packaged deal if and when that time ever came. Of course this is my own opinion, which doesn’t mean much.

Once NJA receives a pay raise, combined with larger aircraft (BBJ, Falcon’s, I see them both all over Europe) you guys will slowly but surely forget about 42 Gulfstreams operated by a bunch of (what you call) “Old Farts”. And this unnecessary bitter and useless argument will finally be put to bed.

Fly Safe Heavy,



Wolfpack

(vs. Virginia tonight at 7:45pm)

Wolfpack,

I appreciate your response. It's not as inflamatory as those from others on the board and I appreciate that. I will say that I did actually meet a NJE GV FO at IAD who had started on that aircraft having flown for a large European airline previously. Perhaps that was the exception and not the rule, but it does happen.

While I realize NJI and NJA are two distinct operations at the moment, I wonder why that has to be the case beyond the original scope and Gulfstream/NJA agreement issues. There is probably a lot of redundancy and overlap that could be removed from the system - right? Again, the Gulfstreams substitute for smaller NJA aircraft and vice versa all of the time. So, I don't see much operational benefit to keeping the two separate - NJE seems to work just fine with all of the aircraft types operated side by side...

 

[abenaki]

Facfriend......

Really?

Oh, why bother......

Well, how about another tact.....


I would like to hear from FacFriend and CMHTROLL as to just what we (the pilots) should do to bring these negotiations to and end?

What salary do you think we should accept?

What basing should we accept?

What schedule should we accept?

What benefit structure should we accept?

What level of job security (aka-scope) should we accept?

What level of retro should we accept?


Please outline this in detail. I'm serious......You all believe that we are totally at fault for the current state of affairs at NJA in all aspects. So, please tell us honestly what you think we should do and what form of contract compensation you think is reasonable. I would be sincerely interested as to how you think I and 2200 other professional pilots should be compensated.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

While I realize NJI and NJA are two distinct operations at the moment, I wonder why that has to be the case beyond the original scope and Gulfstream/NJA agreement issues. There is probably a lot of redundancy and overlap that could be removed from the system - right?

You make a valid point, however I simply don’t have the answers as I don’t call the shots. If NJI operated several types of a/c and or was a much larger operation, then the argument of a whipsaw would have more grounds for support. But NJI is such a small operation within the big picture.

 

[Ultra Grump]

NJI is currently an autonomous company with their own president, dispatch and maintenance operations chartered in South Carolina, a Right to Work state (which means they cannot be forced into a union - they have to vote it on board). NJI has no greater relationship to NJA than do the vendors you sell trips off to or than NetJets Large Aircraft which is an independent operating company flying BBJ's with their own work rules and pay schedules chartered in Bradley, Connecticut.

GV

B.S. I sat in the NJA casino one day and watched an NJA same-day scheduler work an issue with a prominent NJA owner. He had complete control over not only NJA assets, but NJI Gulfstreams and crews as well, and ended up assigning the problem-solving trip to an NJI crew and GV. If our schedulers have control over your crews and planes, you are not an autonomous company. Period.

 

[Ultra Grump]

You are incorrect sir. NJA and NJI are completely separate companies which are owned and operated by the same corporation. NetJets is in turn owned by Berkshire Hathaway who also owns major shares of Geico and Dairy Queen.

If your statement about working for the same company were true, we should all be flying in a DQ uniform and get free car insurance.

See my above post. Our schedulers can't get me a better rate on my car insurance. They can assign you one of our trips. Bad anaolgy on your part.

 

[Ultra Grump]

I am an outsider to all the NJ arguments but have a couple questions.

1. Does NJ disclose what the payscales are before employment?

2. Does the value of a NJ pilot increase over time?

3. Does NJ keep anyone from making their own decisions regarding their career path?

4. If I told you that my boss hasen't given me a raise in the last two years, wouldn't the majority of NJ guys here tell me to stop crying and get another job if I didn't like it?

No flame please (lol, I can't wait to see it). But who is holding a gun to anyone's head at NJ? Just curious.

Guess nobody can answer some simple questions? LOL

OK, Laughingboy:

1. Yes. Interviewers are known to say "But you can expect to make $XXK."

2. Yes. Doesn't yours?

3. No, outside seniority and the A-team.

4. No. Do what you want. We'll do what we want. If you have a problem with that, you don't have to read these threads.

 

[abenaki]

FAcFriend--

You are correct......I was either mis-informed or heard incorrectly about the company walking out of negotiations and not returning or returning late in the day.....

This HAS happened in the past and that is perhaps what I heard and thought it was referring to recent talks...

My bad. My apologies.

 

[NJA Guy]

Heavy Set:

The NJI FO's actually fly more routes than what the G200 and F2000 pilots fly. Asia, South America, Africa, Middle East, are some of the regions that NJI crews FO's fly more often than the G200 and F2000 FO's. The NJI pilots are all "Go To Guys." Many of them when there ask to extend to cover and Owner trip, they do. When they are asked to go over an hour of duty to simplify the days schedule, they do. They do not whine or b**ch when there crew food does not show up.
The planes that NJI fly, fly further and have more endurance than the G200 and F2000. Get my point. These are some of the reason's that NJI crews get paid more. There are many more reason, but it will take me until tomorrow to write them all out.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

If our schedulers have control over your crews and planes, you are not an autonomous company. Period.

Hmm, I'm calling the BS flag on this one. Lets ask one of your Casino employees if they control the NJI operation from Columbus, or if NJI controls its own operations?

I guess the entire multi million dollar operations center in Okatie, S.C. is nothing more than a company ploy to trick me into thinking I work for NJI. I suppose my Director of Operations, 13 schedulers, 8 dispatchers, 6 coordinators are really just NJA plants there to do the Casinos bidding.

The more desperate your antics become, (reaching for straws) the more obvious your panic and despair show through. At every step you have completely boggled your contract issue.

Scab Threats to anyone and everyone
Single Carrier Status Threats
Taking the Gulfstreams
Telling the owners how you, them, and the world is getting screwed by RTS and WB

My concern is for the handful of NJA pilots on this board (and the ones I see on the road) who speak rationally, thoughtfully, and center their frustrations on issues controllable by the company and their union. Not for the quick tempered, hot heads who have gone into a dream land state of union utopia at the cost of destroying everything, for everyone.

Dont forget the golden rule in aviation that applys to the good jobs; it's 'who ya know' not always 'what ya know'.

 

[Hogprint]

GVFlyer posted:

Easy answer. It's a thing called scope. When EJI/NJI was formed in 1995 the Teamsters agreed and wrote into the EJA/NJA contract that the Gulfstream operation would be an exception to scope. NJI is currently an autonomous company with their own president, dispatch and maintenance operations chartered in South Carolina, a Right to Work state (which means they cannot be forced into a union - they have to vote it on board). NJI has no greater relationship to NJA than do the vendors you sell trips off to or than NetJets Large Aircraft which is an independent operating company flying BBJ's with their own work rules and pay schedules chartered in Bradley, Connecticut.

GV- Let's tell the whole story on this autonomous operation. They did not become "autonomous" until about 18 months ago. If I remember correct, Santulli started heading south just about the time the union started probing and asking questions about scope issues and NJI.

Do you remember it this way or am I wrong?

Ultra Gump posted:

B.S. I sat in the NJA casino one day and watched an NJA same-day scheduler work an issue with a prominent NJA owner. He had complete control over not only NJA assets, but NJI Gulfstreams and crews as well, and ended up assigning the problem-solving trip to an NJI crew and GV. If our schedulers have control over your crews and planes, you are not an autonomous company. Period.

I don't know how they interface, but I know it happens. I have flown at least three Gulfstream trips in the last six months. It said so right on the Fleet line.

 

[Hogprint]

Wolfpackpilot posted:

Hmm, I'm calling the BS flag on this one. Lets ask one of your Casino employees if they control the NJI operation from Columbus, or if NJI controls its own operations?

I guess the entire multi million dollar operations center in Okatie, S.C. is nothing more than a company ploy to trick me into thinking I work for NJI. I suppose my Director of Operations, 13 schedulers, 8 dispatchers, 6 coordinators are really just NJA plants there to do the Casinos bidding.

Pack, see my post above. I don't know how the handshake goes, but it happens on some level.

Either your dispatch gets on the batphone when they need help or vice versa. The point is we frequently do some overlap.

I think you posted it is treated as a sell off and that may be true. I remember when I went through matrix training during upgrade. The Flight Managers had access to GIV assets. That has been several years ago, and I understand things may have changed, but I find it hard to believe it has changed that much.

Sorry about the Pack last night. They had a shot in the end, and with a little more experience that QB is going to be just fine. Chuck has proved the Pack belong in the top tier of the ACC.