Net Jets Offers

[rettofly]

Go To Guys?

....The NJI pilots are all "Go To Guys." Many of them when there ask to extend to cover and Owner trip, they do. When they are asked to go over an hour of duty to simplify the days schedule, they do. They do not whine or b**ch when there crew food does not show up.QUOTE]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't 91(k) make "going over duty time" a no-no?

There's no need to whine and bitch about crew food... last time I looked, the G-birds have well-stocked galleys and a F/A to serve up the goodies.

 

[abenaki]

NJA GUY--


"The NJI pilots are all "Go To Guys." Many of them when there ask to extend to cover and Owner trip, they do. When they are asked to go over an hour of duty to simplify the days schedule, they do. They do not whine or b**ch when there crew food does not show up.
The planes that NJI fly, fly further and have more endurance than the G200 and F2000. Get my point. These are some of the reason's that NJI crews get paid more"

Interesting......that's what the NJA guys WERE doing for 3 years of contract negotiations that went nowhere and resulted in an insult of a TA that was a pay-decrease for many....

So, now many are no longer "going the extra mile" and you and many others at Bridgeway see that as "bad". So, by your logic, if we go BACK to doing what we were in the first place, then we'll get something more comensurate?

That didn't work. A pay "raise" fgrom $61K to $69K with all the other foolishness in that failed TA was a step backwards for many. I'll make MORE this year thatn I wouold have in the failed TA.

So, we are just supposed to sit back and take it?

Again, I ask......What level of compensation do you think I deserve?

As of yet, no one has stepped up and answered that question with a specific answer.

 

[Hogprint]

abenaki posted:

As of yet, no one has stepped up and answered that question with a specific answer.

I'll bet you NONE of the company moles will take you up on that either. Their whole point of being here is to undermine and spread disinformation.

We know them as the geek squad!

 

[wolfpackpilot]

That has been several years ago, and I understand things may have changed, but I find it hard to believe it has changed that much.

Hog,

You are correct, the corporation does have operational control over both companies. My only point is that CMH does not control both operations. I think there is constant communications between CMH and Okatie as to how best serve the customers of NetJets. But CMH doesn't pull the strings in Okatie, we dispatch and schedule ourselves. Our primary goal is to accomplish the flights of Gulfstream owners. If we cant for some reason, we call CMH. If we accomplish our flights, and have time and crew available, and NJA needs some help, they call Okatie.

Do we back each other up? Constantly... When Delta drops the ball and the MD-88 cancels, they rebook as many as they can on the next Comair flight. And they own Comair. Just as NetJets owns NJA and NJI.

The Pack looked good last night; your assessment was right on target... But I don’t expect anything less from an old Cav Pilot.

 

[Ultra Grump]

Hmm, I'm calling the BS flag on this one. Lets ask one of your Casino employees if they control the NJI operation from Columbus, or if NJI controls its own operations?

You can deny it all you want, but I sat there and watched it happen. No "I heard this..." or "someone said that..." I was sitting there watching the scheduler run through the day's schedule for every X, 2000, and G in both fleets trying to accommodate that owner. He ended up assigning the trip to an NJI Gulfstream.

There is no doubt, there is no denying it. It is a fact.

 

[FamilyGuy]

This whole thing is about power, control and ego. RTS reportedly hates unions and this is his attempt at breaking ours. Whether he chooses to flush his company to achieve that goal is up to him and his union busting lawyers.

Really? So why is the union trying to exercise its power and control the company?

Wouldnt you expect some pushback from the founder of the industry if you were trying to take away control of the company he conceived and built?

Stay on target and negotiate a good wage for your membership. Straying off target and trying to accomplish all these other goals is just going to limit your effectiveness.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Again, I ask......What level of compensation do you think I deserve?

As of yet, no one has stepped up and answered that question with a specific answer.

It has nothing to do with what you THINK you deserve. Everyone THINKS they deserve the sun, the moon, and the stars. Is that realistic? NO.

Its called Supply and Demand. Individuals with scarce and desirable skill sets can command a higher wage than those who do not have marketable skills.

Currently there is a surplus of pilots in the marketplace. History has shown that this is cyclical. So while pilots do not have a lot of pricing power right now, they will likely regain some of their wage premium in the future.

Each individual must decide if they want to work for the wages being offered by a company or elect to move on in search of something better.

Sitting back bitching about the wages does not help. The only way you can convince companies that their wages are substandard is to vote with your feet and move on to a better paying job. If you cant find a better paying job then it appears that supply & demand is in balance and you are being paid a fair wage.

 

[abenaki]

The union is trying to control the company? Huh? How?

Through asking for a decent wage?

Through trying to protect jobs through SCOPE? Or should we just trust the "benevolence" of the company like we did with the seatlock/gateway fiasco in which RTS failed to honor the intent of the agreement?

Or how about by getting the same scheduling and basing provisions that it ALREADY gives NJI?
And how would you define a "good wage"? I've been asking for a couple of days now for your specifics on that point yet you have all failed to answer that question.

By the way, other than SCOPE, the wage issue is the only thing to be discussed......It's pretty hard to negotiate for a fair wage when the company is regressive in it's offers......

You want this over? Tell them to come to us with something that isn't several steps BACKWARDS!

 

[FamilyGuy]

So, now many are no longer "going the extra mile" and you and many others at Bridgeway see that as "bad".

Going or not going the extra mile has nothing to do with it.

What we see as "bad" is the increased DNIF rate and BS writeups - the tootsie roll in the snack drawer, the daylight dimmer light being too dim.

The crews getting their food but leaving the owners food behind, crews that cant make their way on a 5 minute trip from the hotel to the FBO so they wait till after show time and then call for a limo....

Or is all of this your definition of "going the extra mile"?

 

[FAcFriend]

And how would you define a "good wage"? I've been asking for a couple of days now for your specifics on that point yet you have all failed to answer that question.

Abenaki-

Does your union rep know you are asking these questions on this board?
You may want to speak to your union rep before you continue this line of questioning on this public board-
'
I didnt answer out of respect.

 

[GVFlyer]

B.S. I sat in the NJA casino one day and watched an NJA same-day scheduler work an issue with a prominent NJA owner. He had complete control over not only NJA assets, but NJI Gulfstreams and crews as well, and ended up assigning the problem-solving trip to an NJI crew and GV. If our schedulers have control over your crews and planes, you are not an autonomous company. Period.

That's simply not true. Even when the Gulfstreams were scheduled from Columbus, they had their own scheduling cell headed by Liz T. I had know her previously from Andrews AFB where she commanded the Navy Gulfstream Detachment. We had tried hard to recruit her at Gulfstream, but EJI/NJI gave her a better offer.

I have toured the Gulfstream dispatch activity at Okatie and they schedule their own assets. As Wolfpack has suggested the two scheduling elements at times coordinate with one another, but the basic thrust of the Okatie operation is to take care of Gulfstream owners.

GV

 

[abenaki]

FAMILY GUY

1) I didn't ask about what I thought I deserved.....You are all thinking we are asking for the moon here and thus that is the reason for the state of things, I was asking what YOU think "I" deserve.

2) You said, "Currently there is a surplus of pilots in the marketplace."

But, according to BB, few of them are coming to NJA because of the current deplorable conditions (of course, the fact that pilots aren't applying here is our fault, too.....I know, I know)......So, to continue his logic, because he can't get enough pilots, he's going to furlough......Sorry, how does that logically follow?

So, there really ISN'T a surplus of pilots for NJA, is there? So, he may actually have to change things to attract the pilots he says he needs to fill the seats on all the pending aircraft orders. Yes? The logic dictates that, does it not?



The only way we can convince companies to pay more is to vote with our feet?
Sorry, I don't get that one. There are many other ways to convince a company to pay more.



When I referred to "going the extra mile", I was obviously NOT referring to today........We stopped going the extra mile a while ago. As one pilot is fond of saying, "I used to call in when I saw the train about to hit the wall. Now I just let it hit the wall. I'm not doing others' jobs anymore until......."

Personally, I do not condone some of the petty behaviors that you refer to. That is not how I operate nor is it how a majority of the pilots are operating. However, while you condem those for doing those things, how about looking at the company's behavior regarding the contract? It would seem that with over $12 million in contract violations paid thus far (with a LOT more coming), the company cannot call itself lilly white while condeming the behavior of a few. This company does willfully ignore the provisions of the contract and LOA's that they agreed to.

FacFriend----

I should ask my union rep what YOU think is a reasonable wage? Why would my union rep care if I ask some company person on some public message board what he thinks a reasonable wage is? And you didn't answer out of respect? Sorry. I don't understand this either. I took one of those short buses to school so sometimes things get run right on by me. I fully admit to having a flair for the obvious. The rest sometimes takes a 2x4 to get through to my thick head........respect for what? Me? The union? Please clarify.

 

[Heavy Set]

Heavy Set:

The NJI FO's actually fly more routes than what the G200 and F2000 pilots fly. Asia, South America, Africa, Middle East, are some of the regions that NJI crews FO's fly more often than the G200 and F2000 FO's. The NJI pilots are all "Go To Guys." Many of them when there ask to extend to cover and Owner trip, they do. When they are asked to go over an hour of duty to simplify the days schedule, they do. They do not whine or b**ch when there crew food does not show up.
The planes that NJI fly, fly further and have more endurance than the G200 and F2000. Get my point. These are some of the reason's that NJI crews get paid more. There are many more reason, but it will take me until tomorrow to write them all out.

As far as I know, the Gulfstreams often substitute for the NJA aircraft and vice versa... Who cares if the GIVSP has the capability and potential to fly to Antarctica? I know the Falcon 2000s fly to far-flung destinations like Finland, Chile and Japan - but I guess those guys deserve far less money...

If you are an NJI GIVSP FO and in one year you fly primarily domestic with a few odd trips to Hawaii and Europe, should your pay be much higher than that of a NJA F2000 FO who flies the same route profile? I know some Part 91 Falcon 2000 FOs who make slightly more money than GIV FOs at other companies just because they work for a top-notch department. Aircraft size alone doesn't completely determine the final pay when both aircraft are large...

And then there is the case of NJE - nobody at NJA management likes to talk about NJE or make any comparisons... From an FO perspective, are the NJE GIV/GV FOs paid more than the NJE Falcon 2000 FOs? If so, probably not the same large pay variance that you find between those at NJI and NJA - right? It's truly a double standard and blatantly UNFAIR........ That's my $0.02.

 

[dsptchrnja]

B.S. I sat in the NJA casino one day and watched an NJA same-day scheduler work an issue with a prominent NJA owner.

If you went a couple doors down you could have watched another NJA employee work an issue with booking a vendor aircraft for an NJA owner just as easily. It wouldn't make that vendor any less autonomous than doing the same thing with NJI, would it?

 

[dsptchrnja]

What level of compensation do you think I deserve?

I'll bet you NONE of the company moles will take you up on that either.

Can't say I fit into that catagory but I'd love to anyway... abenaki, assuming your a good NJA pilot who works hard, and I bet you are... I think you deserve a million bucks a year.

I also believe my friend, a kindergarten teacher, deserves at least a million bucks also.

The only ones getting that much are sports players and lotto winners and it can be debated if they even deserve that much.

In life you rarely will get what you deserve - but - you will get what you agree to work for. So maybe that is what you deserve at the moment.

 

[squonk]

In life you rarely will get what you deserve

How true. We will get what we fight for. I know your job is to stand in the way of that, so please move aside and let the combatants move into the arena.

 

[FamilyGuy]

FAMILY GUY
1) I didn't ask about what I thought I deserved.....You are all thinking we are asking for the moon here and thus that is the reason for the state of things, I was asking what YOU think "I" deserve.

What's the point? Cant you find enough stuff on this board to argue about already?

But I'll play your game....

To properly answer your question, you need to understand my thinking on jobs and pay.

First of all, IMHO, people should pursue a job they enjoy and are passionate about. Making lots of money is not an admirable end goal....it's nice if it happens, especially if you get it doing something you love, but its just crazy to perform a job you hate simply to make more money....life's too short.

Second, again IMHO, the job should be close to your family, if possible. That should be self-explanatory.

Third, the company culture and atmosphere should be of a nature that you agree with and can fit in with. Again, life's too short. The job itself can be enjoyable but if the company culture is counter to your own it will just cause a lot of strife and headaches for you. There are lots of companies out there in every line of work. If one doesnt have a culture that fits you, move on and find another. (Its a lot like marriage in this regard...choose your partners wisely, or you'll have a lot of frustration in your life and you'll be poorer in the end)

Fourth, the pay and benefits should meet your needs. I'm not on this planet to work. Work is a means to an end for me. It pays my bills, supports my family, and allows me to pursue activities that I truly enjoy. So long as I find a situation where the first three points are covered, all I'm really worried about is being able to pay my bills.

As for me, I love my job, Columbus is home for me (big bonus in being able to go see the buckeyes), this is the best company I've found so far in terms of taking care employees (I've worked for a lot of companies and seen truly antagonistic attitudes towards employees), and the wages allows me to pay my bills each month, with some due diligence on my part when it comes to budgeting. The benefits are great too - generous 401k, vision, dental, medical, etc....

So, now that you have a better appreciation for my line of thinking on jobs and pay, I can answer your question on what I think you should earn...

Its been stated on this board earlier that most people are flying because its a passion for them. They'd rather do that than sit behind some desk pushing paper. SO the first criteria appears to be met.

The company allows people to choose a gateway to base from, so I think most of our pilots are able to be close to their families, which fulfills the second criteria.

The third criteria is a personal fit, so you will need to answer that question. Again, I dont know how many companies you've worked at, but NetJets has been the best I've found to date for taking care of their people.

Fourth criteria - pay and benefits. The union stated that our pilots are making between $50,000 and $72,000. Seeing as how inflation has increased 9.08% over the last four years, it would be reasonable to expect a raise that exceeds that. Most people want to continue to gain ground, so I would say at least double the inflation rate, so the raise should start around 18% in real terms, everything else being equal.

Of course, we both know that the pilots pay would continue to advance at a rate that is more than double the rate of inflation, since you also get annual raises for years of service, in addition to the opportunity to reset the scale every time the contract is renegotiated.

FAMILY GUY

2) You said, "Currently there is a surplus of pilots in the marketplace."

But, according to BB, few of them are coming to NJA because of the current deplorable conditions (of course, the fact that pilots aren't applying here is our fault, too.....I know, I know)......So, to continue his logic, because he can't get enough pilots, he's going to furlough......Sorry, how does that logically follow?

So, there really ISN'T a surplus of pilots for NJA, is there? So, he may actually have to change things to attract the pilots he says he needs to fill the seats on all the pending aircraft orders. Yes? The logic dictates that, does it not?

That's some twisted logic....

Simple facts - there are thousands of pilots laid off from the legacy carriers. Wages industry wide are decreasing, and decreasing rapidly. The only reason NJA is not meeting its goals is because the pilots are actively waging a "do not come here" campaign, as evidenced in numerous threads on this board. Does this campaign change the facts that there is a surplus of pilots in the industry? NO.

FAMILY GUY
The only way we can convince companies to pay more is to vote with our feet?
Sorry, I don't get that one. There are many other ways to convince a company to pay more.

Yeah...they are called extortion, blackmail, arm-twisting, etc....

How else would you characterize people that deliberately under-perform, sabotage, and undermine the company's performance and publicly state that things will return to normal when our demands are met?

Personally, I do not condone some of the petty behaviors that you refer to. That is not how I operate nor is it how a majority of the pilots are operating. However, while you condem those for doing those things, how about looking at the company's behavior regarding the contract? It would seem that with over $12 million in contract violations paid thus far (with a LOT more coming), the company cannot call itself lilly white while condeming the behavior of a few. This company does willfully ignore the provisions of the contract and LOA's that they agreed to.

Since I dont work in the pilot ops side, its hard for me to comment on contract violations when I dont have the details. Can you share them? What were the violations and what were the awards?

Absent the details, it sounds like the process is working and people are being held accountable if a contract provision is violated.

Now, are you going to support the company firing people that sabotage the operation or are you going to support using your dues to defend them and their behavior?

 

[Hogprint]

Leader of the geek squad posted:

Simple facts - there are thousands of pilots laid off from the legacy carriers. Wages industry wide are decreasing, and decreasing rapidly. The only reason NJA is not meeting its goals is because the pilots are actively waging a "do not come here" campaign, as evidenced in numerous threads on this board. Does this campaign change the facts that there is a surplus of pilots in the industry? NO.

Really. Is this the ONLY reason we're not meeting our goals? I guess working on an EIGHT YEAR OLD contract has NOTHING to do with it. I guess a labor/pilot hating management team has NOTHING to do with it.
Lowest paid pilots in the industry...NOTHING to do with it....need I go on?

I see your a true conspiracy theorist. A "do not come here" campaign. I guess in your world all the people that have left this place this year were part of a "please leave here" campaign?

Since I dont work in the pilot ops side, its hard for me to comment on contract violations when I dont have the details. Can you share them? What were the violations and what were the awards?

I would suggest walking over and talking to a Flight Manager. They should be up to speed on some of the new LOAs. Monies totaling in the Millions.

We will change the culture of "push them and let them grieve it later" that is prevalent here. They got away with this for years. I guess you can only poke the bear for so long.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Really. Is this the ONLY reason we're not meeting our goals? I guess working on an EIGHT YEAR OLD contract has NOTHING to do with it.

Now its an eight year old contract? This is like fishing tales....they keep getting bigger.

I thought we agreed long ago that BOTH sides were at fault here, but it looks like we are due for a recap...The contract has been amendable since 2001....the company has been negotiating with your representatives since that time. The company and the union reached an agreement in 2004, which the pilots voted down. The pilots subsequently voted out the union leadership, voted in new leaders, changed locals, and started at square one on negotiations. The company has been at the table the whole time, but they can only proceed as fast as the union wants to proceed. If the union elects to spend 3 years renegotiating every clause in the contract before they get to pay, what can the company do?

I guess a labor/pilot hating management team has NOTHING to do with it.

Really? The non-union employees in the flight center dont seem to have any problems. NJI doesnt seem to have any problems. EJM doesnt seem to have any problems. NJE doesnt seem to have any problems.

How can 4 other operating companies not have a problem, but the one union-represented company does? things that make you go hmmmmm....

Really. Is this the ONLY reason we're not meeting our goals? I guess working on an EIGHT YEAR OLD contract has NOTHING to do with it. I guess a labor/pilot hating management team has NOTHING to do with it.
Lowest paid pilots in the industry...NOTHING to do with it....need I go on?

Yes, I think you should go on Hogprint....cause you're singing a far different tune than when you posted this just a month ago:

Our union has delivered on most things, just not pay. The other frax best us only on pay, and it's just a couple of grand more a year.

things that make you go hmmmmmmm......

 

[dsptchrnja]

Leader of the geek squad posted:

Not really impressed. A real man can have an adult debate without resorting to belittlement (particularly when your both on the same team). Usually that's reserved for those who feel threatened.