Net Jets Offers

[FAcFriend]

Have you read the TA? Do you know what's in it? If you had, you would know it is no better than what we have now, and in many cases is worse. Does that make our current CBA " the richest in aviation history?" I think not.

Ultragrump...I am not disagreeing with you at all.

I am wondering why the National IBT aviation Div of your union, gave this information to your members last year.

It was your national union leadership that said the TA was Richest in recent aviation history.

So I guess if the national union misled you so badly last year,
and your new local MEC is using the same National guys as consultants this year- that say last year's contract was awful-

It makes people wonder-

Was the National IBT lying to you last year?
or are they lying to you this year?

 

[Ultra Grump]

Ultragrump...I am not disagreeing with you at all.

I am wondering why the National IBT aviation Div of your union, gave this information to your members last year.

It was your national union leadership that said the TA was Richest in recent aviation history.

Regardless of why they said that, it obviously wasn't. They had no vote on it. We did, and we said it wasn't good enough.

 

[FAcFriend]

Regardless of why they said that, it obviously wasn't. They had no vote on it. We did, and we said it wasn't good enough.

I hope you continue to evaluate your present MEC and the National IBT, with the same scrutiny as you have in the past. Since they attempted to mislead the NetJets pilots last year- I am sure you are on top of it this year.

 

[x402]

I hope you continue to evaluate your present MEC and the National IBT, with the same scrutiny as you have in the past. Since they attempted to mislead the NetJets pilots last year- I am sure you are on top of it this year.

The only constant has been the crap coming from the company over the last four years. Teamsters/locals, we have shown some control over that. We cannot control Mr Boistures' desire to ruin this company and Golden Parachute his way into retirement.

I'm sorry management is not only screwing pilots , they are/have limited the non-bargining employees chance to grow with their regressive policies.

Bill Boisture will be fine, Rich Santulli will be fine, Jimmy Jacobs yes you know.....we will pay the price, pilots/easton/bridgeway. You might not see it but we ARE fighting for everyone. Every flight manager, dispatcher,hr person, te, weatherman and even owner services. This will be the rising tide that lifts all boats.

I don't want owners calling me to schedule flights, it really is a team effort. The company/lawyers/negotiators need to look ahead and settle this mess.

 

[Sarka]

Sarka posted:

Does United call American or Norhtwest or any other competitor to cover their trips?


They sure do. If a flight is canceled I have been routed on a competing carrier.

The managers at the frax may be closer than you think. We have crews that take poohbahs to Cayahoga all the time, especially right after the TA vote last year.

I've heard from Optns crews on the road that they took their honchos to Woodbridge /Newark.

I'm not sure I am following your point. Would that constitute Single Carrier status? Are you saying that all the fractionals are in cahoots, now? Plus, there is a big difference between flying the "poohbahs" around and flying the "owners", isn't there?

Like I said before, I have nothing to do with the contract fight and don't care to either. I'm just telling you that as an NJA scheduler, I don't have control over the flight schedules for any of the other companies that fall under the Berkshire umbrella or that we deal with on a daily basis. Their flight schedulers control their fleets. Not me or any other NJA scheduler.

Again, this issue is for Management, the Union and/or the courts to figure out.

 

[ce750drvr]

Ultragrump...I am not disagreeing with you at all.

I am wondering why the National IBT aviation Div of your union, gave this information to your members last year.

It was your national union leadership that said the TA was Richest in recent aviation history.

So I guess if the national union misled you so badly last year,
and your new local MEC is using the same National guys as consultants this year- that say last year's contract was awful-

It makes people wonder-

Was the National IBT lying to you last year?
or are they lying to you this year?

The reason they said it is for the same reason they say the exact same thing when they negotiate the other groups' contracts.......because it is a quote that goes in the IBT magazine so ALL IBT groups think that their dues are being spent to obtain "the richest contract in aviation history".

When the beer truck drivers voted in their contract, the IBT also said "it is the richest contract in history". It is just propoganda for the rah, rah get on board pep rally.

So no, in all reality, it WAS NOT the richest in recent aviation history. In fact, after pointing out the pitfalls of the failed TA, the IBT pres was a little disgusted with what was presented. That is one of the reasons why we were allowed to have our own local and they even sped up the process.

 

[FamilyGuy]

It IS all about choice. At my second job rehabbing houses this weekend I talked to a guy that is pitching in as a favor (doesn't need the scratch). He drives a truck during the week and has one week on and one week off.

He is away from his family as much as I am.

He makes $2000 a week. I make $2000 a month.

Hmmmmm.

Oh yeah? Well my sister's brother's friend knows this guy that drives a truck and makes $2000 a week as well...

If you can make $100,000 a year driving a truck, working one week on and one week off, you'd better jump on it...funny though, I havent seen a mass exodus for these over the rainbow jobs.

Nor does any pilot make just $2000 per month.

Seems like the truth is somewhere in between....

 

[dsptchrnja]

It's high tide... where's your boat?

We cannot control Mr Boistures' desire to ruin this company and Golden Parachute his way into retirement.

...why would Mr. Boisture DESIRE to ruin this company? He and RTS are long-time friends.

I'm sorry management is not only screwing pilots , they are/have limited the non-bargining employees chance to grow with their regressive policies.

Can you be more specific... which policies exactly?

You might not see it but we ARE fighting for everyone. Every flight manager, dispatcher,hr person, te, weatherman and even owner services.

Who is WE? When union members on this board exclaim STFD! in the largest font size possible, I don't get the sense they are looking out for my intrest. You can at least be honest because that bucket don't hold water. You guys deserve a raise and you deserve it yesterday. But no need to "fight" for us - we have the company we wanted (albeit not perfect).

This will be the rising tide that lifts all boats.

I miss netjetwife too. Thanks for resurrecting this memorable, overused, undermined, quote. My dad had a boat once and was fishing in a place that the current came in quite rapidly with the rising tide. One time it came in so quick that he couldn't get the anchor off the bottom quick enough and it caused the boat to take on water and sink. It's hard, sometimes, not to think of the local union as your anchor in light of all the other free-floating "at-will" boats unencumbered by dead weight.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Family Guy--

Thank you for your reply...due to the fact that I can't seem to figure out how to view your response and type mine at the same time, this will probably be a mulit-part response....

First.....Your criteria for "job satisfaction" are good.....No arguments from me on that one. In regards to "company fit", I will say that I think an overhwelming number of us felt similar to how I first did when I got here.....When I first walked into the hangar at Bridgeway and saw the polished floors and the guy taking the "waterspots off the wings 'cause the owners don't like to see waterspots", I thought I'd found my "professional home".....and I did.....That was reinforced by the fact that customer service was a short distance behind safety. We had, what was it?, a full day on customer service during training and more customer service training during recurrent?

My point is this. The focus of NJA has changed and changed dramatically. No longer is "customer service" given as a class any more. No longer is it even mentioned in recurrent anymore since what's-his-name left a couple of years ago. The airplanes certainly do not look as good as they did a couple of years ago though I admit there has been some addressing of that issue.

When on tour up to a couple of years ago there was time to maybe sit down and have a hot meal somewhere or get a work out in a couple of times a tour which made the crews fresher and more able to take some of the longer days AND provide better customer service. Now it's 12+/- hours every day not so much to add to productivity it seems as it is to show some "crew utilization" statistics.

I could go on and on with what I perceive as negative changes here and changes that affect the "fit" from what was here before. There's even a joke out on the line that was NOT applicable a couple of years ago about "safety being #1 at Net Jets unless it intereferes with scheduling".......I could relate pages of examples of this but my point is that the culture has has changed, and not for the better for the employees nor for the owners satisfaction.

BB's philosophy of "doing more with less" is a good sound bite, but doesn't always translate well into a "frontline service" business.....and make no mistake about it, NJA doesn't sell airplanes or "fractional ownership" or anything else BUT SERVICE. That point was highly emphasized by the "service excellence" guy whom I mentioned......I have often wondered why his position was replaced and why service is no longer mentioned to the front line providers of that service.

abenaki - thank you for several well thought out and professional posts.

I agree with you on the service class. We can all use more focus on what our owners need and demand every day.

One thing that I've noticed is that our owners have gotten a lot more savvy over the years. In the early years it was easy to wow them with the basic service but now they have a better understanding of what to expect and demand....which makes it even harder to keep them satisfied, let alone happy and enthusiastic about their purchase, like they used to be. This just shows that the service class is even more useful now than when it was originally conceived.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Family Guy--

In regards to wages.....

OK...#1...why are you applying the inflation rate for only the last 4 years? The wages of the current contract were agreed to in 1998? So why isn't the inflation applied to 1998 to the present and beyond instead of just the last four years?

To apply the inlfation rate of just the last four years ignores the devaluation of the wage dollar during the life of the 1998 contract. So, to add your figure of 9% to adjust for the inflation of 2001-2005, you've done nothing to address that devaluation of 1998-2001.

As in my original post, a COLA application has to be applied to the life of the contract, too, or else the actual buying power of those dollars decreases over the life of the contract.

In essense, NJA has been paying 1998 wages through 2005.....That's a pretty good deal that any company would LOVE and has been the incentive to drag these negotiations out this long. Management even admitted that it dragged out the negotiations.....that's no news flash. They've saved bazillions over the last fours years by paying 1998 wages.....

So, in rough numbers to SIMPLY ADJUST FOR INLFATION WITHOUT TAKING INTO ACCOUNT NJA'S ALREADY LOW BALL PAY, you have to go back to my original post that puts the current $61,000 a year at about $77,000 a year using a modest 3% rate over 8 years......(NJA uses 3.75% for owner increases in management fees) .....now add a COLA adjustment of 3% a year for 4 years of a contract and we're well over $80K just for inflation!

If we use NJA'S 3.75%, those numbers go even higher.....and wasn't that 3.75% touted as necessary to "pay for the pilot's raises"? No doubt that it was.

abenaki - I didnt include inflation for the period from 98-01 because I assumed it was included in the numbers that were agreed to in the original contract. Much like how you want to include inflation figures for the future years of the next contract.

I also wouldnt advise using 3% as a base inflation number. As my earlier posts have shown, the last 4 years only totaled 9%. In fact, inflation has only reached 3% one time out of the last 12 years...according to the federal government...

http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/COLA/colaseries.html

 

[Hogprint]

I'm not sure I am following your point. Would that constitute Single Carrier status? Are you saying that all the fractionals are in cahoots, now? Plus, there is a big difference between flying the "poohbahs" around and flying the "owners", isn't there?

Like I said before, I have nothing to do with the contract fight and don't care to either. I'm just telling you that as an NJA scheduler, I don't have control over the flight schedules for any of the other companies that fall under the Berkshire umbrella or that we deal with on a daily basis. Their flight schedulers control their fleets. Not me or any other NJA scheduler.

Again, this issue is for Management, the Union and/or the courts to figure out.

I'm not saying we are in cahoots, just that maybe calls can be made? Point taken between poohbahs/owners.

The point I was making was I have been placed on a flight between rival carriers when something was canceled. I don't know if we do anything like that.

 

[Hogprint]

dsptcher posted:

It's hard, sometimes, not to think of the local union as your anchor in light of all the other free-floating "at-will" boats unencumbered by dead weight.

Enlighten us again about these "at-will" boats?

NJI is your best example and I would agree they look good from across the fence. The pilots that post here seem satisfied, but they have even stated their pay is middle to lower tier for their equipment.

I would disagree with any of the other frax with the possible exception of CS, who seems to be getting it and taking the lead in this industry.

 

[Ultra Grump]

abenaki - I didnt include inflation for the period from 98-01 because I assumed it was included in the numbers that were agreed to in the original contract. Much like how you want to include inflation figures for the future years of the next contract.

Ok, once more for the REALLY slow:

Actually, Cost-of-Living is NOT included in the current CBA. If it were, there would be the payscale we have now (YOS = Year of Signing), and several others that are for YOS+1, YOS+2, YOS+3, which would include a Cost of Living increase. This is the way it's done at airlines, and I was floored when I got here and saw we didn't have it. Stupid in my opinion. So a pilot (any seat, any year of service) in 1998 had SIGNIFICANTLY more buying power than a pilot today with the same seat/year.

So for example, a 5th year captain in 1998 made $60984. A 5th year captain in 2001 still made $60984. A 5th year captain in 2005 makes $60984. If the 1998 pilot bought something for $1000, for the 2001 pilot to buy the same item should have cost $1088. For the 2005 pilot to buy that item, it should cost $1157 or more, since there is no data on the actual 2005 COLA. So no, there has been no COLA on our rates, and yes, ALL the time covered by the CBA is affected by Cost of Living increases.

 

[dsptchrnja]

Ok, once more for the REALLY slow:

Actually, Cost-of-Living is NOT included in the current CBA. If it were, there would be the payscale we have now (YOS = Year of Signing), and several others that are for YOS+1, YOS+2, YOS+3, which would include a Cost of Living increase. This is the way it's done at airlines, and I was floored when I got here and saw we didn't have it. Stupid in my opinion. So a pilot (any seat, any year of service) in 1998 had SIGNIFICANTLY more buying power than a pilot today with the same seat/year.

So for example, a 5th year captain in 1998 made $60984. A 5th year captain in 2001 still made $60984. A 5th year captain in 2005 makes $60984. If the 1998 pilot bought something for $1000, for the 2001 pilot to buy the same item should have cost $1088. For the 2005 pilot to buy that item, it should cost $1157 or more, since there is no data on the actual 2005 COLA. So no, there has been no COLA on our rates, and yes, ALL the time covered by the CBA is affected by Cost of Living increases.

Your overlooking the obvious. The same 5th year NJA Capt in 1998 who made $61,000 is now making $88,000 in 2005. I'd say that keeps up with inflation - COLA or no COLA.

 

[Starman]

Your overlooking the obvious. The same 5th year NJA Capt in 1998 who made $61,000 is now making $88,000 in 2005. I'd say that keeps up with inflation - COLA or no COLA.

But a 5th year Captain in 1998 made much more money in real dollars than a 5th year Captain now. That's the definition of COLA - not the psuedoscience you tried to come up with. Longevity raises are not the same thing as a COLA. Never have been.

 

[Bad Monkey!]

dsptchrNJA your such a dork. Get back into your latex and get whipped.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Ok, once more for the REALLY slow:

Actually, Cost-of-Living is NOT included in the current CBA. If it were, there would be the payscale we have now (YOS = Year of Signing), and several others that are for YOS+1, YOS+2, YOS+3, which would include a Cost of Living increase. This is the way it's done at airlines, and I was floored when I got here and saw we didn't have it. Stupid in my opinion. So a pilot (any seat, any year of service) in 1998 had SIGNIFICANTLY more buying power than a pilot today with the same seat/year.

So for example, a 5th year captain in 1998 made $60984. A 5th year captain in 2001 still made $60984. A 5th year captain in 2005 makes $60984. If the 1998 pilot bought something for $1000, for the 2001 pilot to buy the same item should have cost $1088. For the 2005 pilot to buy that item, it should cost $1157 or more, since there is no data on the actual 2005 COLA. So no, there has been no COLA on our rates, and yes, ALL the time covered by the CBA is affected by Cost of Living increases.

Grump - I know there are no specific COLA increases in the contract, but my point was that this was probably taken into account in the bargaining process and the scale that was set probably included a COLA number.....much the same way you want to add COLA right now to set the base for the new contract.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Your overlooking the obvious. The same 5th year NJA Capt in 1998 who made $61,000 is now making $88,000 in 2005. I'd say that keeps up with inflation - COLA or no COLA.

But a 5th year Captain in 1998 made much more money in real dollars than a 5th year Captain now. That's the definition of COLA - not the psuedoscience you tried to come up with. Longevity raises are not the same thing as a COLA. Never have been.

A 5th year captain making $61k in 1998 would have buying power of $71,513 in today's dollars, based on the federal COLA numbers.

As dsptchrNJA pointed out, that same captain is now making $88k, simply due to the longevity raises, which represents a 23% increase over the $71k number.

 

[abenaki]

Family Guy....

Yes, but the 5th year guy today is making LESS than the 5th guy guy of 1998........That's the bottom line.....So, "my" fifth year pay" today does not offer me the same buying power as teh 5th year guy in 1998. That's the issue at hand.

The fact that the 5th year guy is now making 80K is irrelevant to the fact that his pay NOW offers HIm less buying power that that level of pay in 1998.

There is no way that $61K in 1998 is the same as $61K now.....and that's what 5th people are making today......1998 5th year dollars.....So, we ARE going backwards no matter how you slice it....

My point is that thus far, the company has offered nothing but regressive pay scales thus far......And as I have pointed out, at the end of say, a four-year contract going out to '09, the $61K of 1998 has to be in the ballpark of over $81k TO SIMPLY KEEP THE PAY AT THE SAME BUYING-POWER LEVEL OF 61K IN 1998. ANYTHING SHORT OF THAT IS A REGRESSIVE CONTRACT AND OES NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THAT WE ARE STILL UNDERPAID FOR THE INDUSTRY..

So, going back to "bargaining in good faith"...in 4 years, the company has failed to offer anything that is not badly regressive.

There is no way this pilot group will sign something that represents LESS money.

 

[igneousy2]

pilot shortage

You're right...their is no pilot shortage. However, nobody with any kind of experience will work for the wages that NJ is offering. I was about to apply but decided against it. I like the gateway airport concept but the pay...

I would have worked for the pay the gulfstream guys make but the minimums are ridicules.

I have 6000+tt, 1000+jet, 4000+ turbine, 500+ 121 turbine pic...but I can't be an FO on a G-IV...give me a break. Let's see...Gulfstreams got wings, push to go down, pull to go up... WTF!

And the irony is that if I go to the non gulfstream side I will never be qualified to go to the gulfstream side as I will never get that 500 hours of gulfstream time...ridicules

I wish you guys luck...united you bargain...divided you beg!

Later