Net Jets Gateway Cities

[netjetwife]

Who is we? Though others may have the same opinion, I am sharing the perspective from my family. HBA's for all would be solid progress. If the pilots could get everything they wanted from the company that would surely be at the top of the list. Unfortunately, that doesn't appear possible. We screwed up the first time around In 2005 I tried to get my husband to vote no because of the domicile system and the low FO pay. He tells me the company quit negotiating when they invoked the legally binding "best and final offer" phrase so that forced the vote. now is a chance to either get it right or watch HBA's as a whole die a slow 5 year death. This is a crystal ball question I see differently. Taking 100 bases now will give a huge QOL break to the post rat pilots and the group can still fight for HBAs for all when the contract becomes amendable. I think it would be easier that way because it would have been demonstrated that the 5 domiciles were an unnecessary restriction. Because the 100 will be the final 100 in the end if we allow it. That could already happen. The company can currently open up more domiciles and make the HBA pilots use them. The IBB proposal includes grandfathered rights to HBAs that will prevent that from happening. 100 bases and a guarantee to HBAs would provide a stronger position to fight from next time around.

Ahh yes the if you're not volunteering you shouldn't speak out.....

Please don't assign an opinion to me that I don't hold. I was encouraging others to participate more in the process (not less) and to actively work for the solutions they are proposing. I firmly believe that debate of the issues--by all involved (including family members)--is a good thing. Clearly apathy, evidenced by silence, is not.

 

[Wacopilot]

the Netjet folks that post over and over on this board make rest of us Netjet folks look like children..... Please represent our pilot group with a little more professionalism. We are not regional pilots.

J.H.
CE560XL

 

[netjetwife]

....The underlined part is certainly true, but doesn't automatically qualify whatever the leadership puts out as "yes-worthy."
Agreed. The definition of a good deal is always subjective. Leadership is tasked with balancing the interests of a large group with varying criteria--not an easy job.

...I am not the one in a leadership position, with my wife on message boards acting as a cheerleader for this proposal. One public message board where issues affecting my family are discussed.

I have volunteered time in the past, and may again in the future, although the beat-down some have gotten for not toeing the union line over the IBB gives me pause. Some posts brought a frown to my face as well. Active participation should be encouraged for everyone affected by the contract.

Every pilot's family gives up time - it's the nature of the business. True, but some give up their personal free time above and beyond what the job requires. I am pointing that out to give (at your request) examples of what my family has done to help the pilot group. My husband is gone from home even more and does Union business when he is home. Your husband's choice to work in 1108 leadership has not resulted in a loss of income, any more than my decision not to bid the reserve schedule has resulted in a loss of income for me. It's a choice we both made, with the resulting salary implications. We both have the potential to earn more, but choose not to. You're right that my husband could have refused to help the pilot group and would not have missed the holiday pay and OT he was scheduled to get. Now how did I know...Ultra Grump... you'd turn the concrete example you asked for (of my family helping the group) into a complaint? Luckily, for the NJ pilots those serving for the greater good are willing to make the sacrifice, but from my perspective more volunteers are needed to spread the work load and prevent those on the front line from ending up burned out.

Besides, if you spent much time in an Ultra, you'd be grumpy, too. I'd extend my sympathy but something tells me it wouldn't be welcome. Suffice it to say that I realize the cockpit is cramped and has no APU. Worse still, no TCAS. I was definitely against 5 yr seat locks. Sympathy is unneeded and unwarranted. Sorry Grumpy, I'll give it to someone else... We'll see (or maybe not) on Oct 1 whether our disappointment is unfounded or not.

It'd be great if every group in the Union were pleased but that doesn't seem possible when compromise is mandated. Therefore, I hope that an arrangement acceptable to the majority will be worked out this week. NJW

 

[RNObased]

It'd be great if every group in the Union were pleased but that doesn't seem possible when compromise is mandated. Therefore, I hope that an arrangement acceptable to the majority will be worked out this week. NJW

Yeah, if you mean a majority of 51% then things are looking good.....

 

[Diesel]

Heck you'd think that NJW was on the negotiating team or something.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Heck you'd think that NJW was on the negotiating team or something.

Too bad she's not. I'm sure the cookies would be better.....

 

[netjetwife]

It is my opinion that upper management has seen the power of positive reinforcement since the 2005 CBA was passed. I believe that RTS is smart enough to keep a good thing going. Considering how hard both sides have been working, surely they are able to put together a fair deal.

From my card shop....

http://www.bluemountain.com/view.pd?i=173646460&m=1932&rr=y&source=bma999

 

[TORCH67]

RTS is not looking for a fair deal! He is looking for the best deal for him and Warren! I like my job and respect the union, but I don't trust RTS to do the right thing yet!

 

[RNObased]

It is my opinion that upper management has seen the power of positive reinforcement since the 2005 CBA was passed. I believe that RTS is smart enough to keep a good thing going. Considering how hard both sides have been working, surely they are able to put together a fair deal.

From my card shop....

[URL="http://www.bluemountain.com/view.pd?i=173646460&m=1932&rr=y&source=bma999"]http://www.bluemountain.com/view.pd?i=173646460&m=1932&rr=y&source=bma999[/URL]

Fair for who???? Sounds like for the FOs and junior capts. If you have 6+ yrs or are a reserve guy, IOE,IP,CA it is a mess. They haven't thrown enough money at it to buy my vote.

 

[netjetwife]

RNO, how can you write it off before you even see it... Torch, the pilots are also looking for the best deal they can get. I didn't say RTS was playing Santa Claus, but obviously the pilot group has been working hard and 1108 isn't shy about pointing that out.

The idea is to work out a compromise that offers an improvement for both sides--overall. Last time around the most junior on the list did rather poorly. My first grader calls it taking turns... hint, hint. The Union has to pull their wages up closer to professional pay. They're also the group RTS is worried about losing so it shouldn't be a surprise if more money is targeted at them.

That said, I just don't see RTS wanting to go back to the days of unmotivated pilots, especially with the busy season fast approaching. Nor do I think that our side would let any segment of the pilot force go unrewarded for their hard work that helps bring in significant profits. The money is there and both sides want IBB to pass. I think they'll pull it off. I also think that after all the effort spent on IBB that neither side would be happy with it barely passing. Logic says that they know what it will take to get a respectable return for the invest of their time.

 

[RNObased]

RNO, how can you write it off before you even see

Logic says that they know what it will take to get a respectable return for the invest of their time.

I'm not writing it off yet. However from what I have seen and the numbers that have been leaked, they are off the mark. We will see what happens. But please don't give me a lecture about they know what they are doing, they know what we want, little sick of hearing it. I hope they do, because the fall out will be UGLY if they present a POS to us.

Logic and NJA mangement, huh you don't hear those words together too often. Logic aside, history says they will low ball us like they always do.

 

[netjetwife]

I'm not writing it off yet. However from what I have seen and the numbers that have been leaked, they are off the mark. Maybe they're saving the best for last? As in the final offer... I prefer to think optimistically. We will see what happens. True. The IBB team is in the home stretch and working hard. Right now I think that no news is good news. But please don't give me a lecture about they know what they are doing, they know what we want, little sick of hearing it. I hope they do, because the fall out will be UGLY if they present a POS to us. Not lecturing-- just expressing my opinion that I think those at the table are smart enough to predict the reaction a "POS" would bring. I don't believe they'd waste their time doing that. Logic and NJA mangement, huh you don't hear those words together too often. Mr. Gorman was a logical choice so perhaps they're learning... Logic aside, history says they will low ball us like they always do. The pilots stood up for themselves in 2005 so I think they'll be taken seriously now.

Given the past history, it will take time for a complete culture change throughout the company, but IBB is a good opportunity to mend fences and those at the table are surely aware of that aspect of the project. That is the logic that I'm referring to and I think it bodes well for all involved.

 

[hopalong]

Do you all think we will even see anything presented come 10/1????

 

[RNObased]

Given the past history, it will take time for a complete culture change throughout the company, but IBB is a good opportunity to mend fences and those at the table are surely aware of that aspect of the project. That is the logic that I'm referring to and I think it bodes well for all involved.

Time will tell....

 

[Guitar Guy]

Do you all think we will even see anything presented come 10/1????

A few days ago, BO's prognostication was a 50/50 chance. However, an MEC member felt that the chances were considerably higher or, as he said, he wouldn't continue working so hard on the process.

Personally, I'm about 95% confident that we'll see something next Monday. I think both sides have put a lot of effort into IBB and want to see something come out of negotiations. I also think that senior management realizes that to go this far with so many expectations raised would cause a lot of grief and resentment if a TA wasn't reached.

But that's just my $0.02.

Now, if you want a guess on the likelihood of ratification, you'll need to wait a week or so. Despite all of the banter on the union board, none of us have seen the final document.

 

[hopalong]

Thanks Guitar Guy. I hope you are right.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Based on a recent conversation with someone who KNOWS, work is continuing in Woodbridge and Columbus and will continue through the weekend. You should have something to actually read Monday.

 

[netjetwife]

According to my favorite source (who won't be coming home this weekend) work will continue right up to the last minute. I wouldn't be surprised if it takes them all day Monday to wrap it up. Guitar Guy I'll take your 95% and raise it by 4.9%... Adjusted for any unforeseen melt down at the table...

 

[Ultra Grump]

Last time around the most junior on the list did rather poorly. My first grader calls it taking turns... hint, hint.

So now it's the pre-rat guys' turn to do rather poorly? Tell your first-grader to mind his own business.

The money is there...

Not yet, it's not. There had better be a LOT more than what was hinted at earlier to justify all the regression for the pre-rats.

 

[jonjuan]

There had better be a LOT more than what was hinted at earlier to justify all the regression for the pre-rats.

Or what???

 

[Guitar Guy]

Or what???

If the proposal that we should most likely see on Monday is voted down, we simply continue under our current CBA (from 2005) and wait for 2010 when normal, so-called "Section 6" negotations should be conducted.

The current set of negotiations is called "Interest Based Bargaining". The goal of IBB was to tweak select portions of the current CBA. We'll know exactly what all of the proposed changes are next Monday.

 

[Guitar Guy]

According to my favorite source (who won't be coming home this weekend) work will continue right up to the last minute. I wouldn't be surprised if it takes them all day Monday to wrap it up. Guitar Guy I'll take your 95% and raise it by 4.9%... Adjusted for any unforeseen melt down at the table...

I hope you're right about that 99.9% chance of reaching an agreement. I think a good number of people will be pretty upset if IBB melts down, as you put it, without reaching an agreement.

Monday should be very interesting indeed.

 

[netjetwife]

So now it's the pre-rat guys' turn to do rather poorly? Tell your first-grader to mind his own business. Not yet, it's not. There had better be a LOT more than what was hinted at earlier to justify all the regression for the pre-rats.

Her business, but we can stick to the adult term... compromise. I don't think 1108 would submit a regressive TA on balance. While some segments of the group will do better than others to correct for imbalances in the 2005 CBA (notice that being precise takes more words ) I don't think any NJ pilot will be left out. Apparently I didn't make my post long enough previously because you misunderstood my meaning when I said that the money is there. I was referring to the profits that have been rolling in lately--not the interim figures from an incomplete IBB process. It's my suggestion that the company has the available funds to sweeten the deal and they should know from 2005 what it takes to keep the pilots motivated. I can't see RTS wanting disappointed, aggravated pilots again, especially heading into the busy season. Motivated employees are more productive; I think the bottom line has driven that message home. It was much slower sinking in than it should have been, but I think management is finally getting it. There must be some mental block in management when it comes to recognizing the wisdom of motivating the work force. Look at what the Options pilots are going thru--different group, same story. Hang in there guys. It's worth it in the end.

 

[netjetwife]

Guitar Guy, I totally agree. If it were to fall apart at the last hour more than money would be lost. IBB is tangible evidence that the Union and Management have learned to work together for the betterment of all. The potential gain in the labor-management relationship can have a huge, long-lasting impact. Seen from that perspective, failure is unacceptable. We saw that mind-set reflected in 1108's stated goal of wanting the TA to pass by 80%. After it comes out we should all post a guess on the ratification odds like we did for the 2005 CBA. It's my opinion that 1108 leaders wouldn't be so open about their 80% objective unless they felt there was a chance of meeting that goal.

 

[Ultra Grump]

While some segments of the group will do better than others to correct for imbalances in the 2005 CBA (notice that being precise takes more words ) I don't think any NJ pilot will be left out.

Yes, we all get a raise, but the question is whether it will be enough to offset the losses (HBA, reserve schedule H-days, reserve vacation, differences pay, shall I go on?).

Apparently I didn't make my post long enough previously because you misunderstood my meaning when I said that the money is there. I was referring to the profits that have been rolling in lately--not the interim figures from an incomplete IBB process. It's my suggestion that the company has the available funds to sweeten the deal...

No need to be condescending. I knew exactly what you meant, and took it to the next logical step, as you just did (in bold).

 

[TORCH67]

I sure hope they are not just polising a turd! I didn't get into this business for charity. I sure hope for the new guys it's worth everyone voting yes!!

 

[netjetwife]

Tsk tsk Grumpy....I was not being condescending. I was engaging in light-hearted verbal sparring. I realize the general tone of the board makes you suspect my intentions, but I'm the most pro-pilot non-pilot that posts here... I was teasing you for complaining about those 30 plus pages added to the contract in IBB.

At the risk of offering more unwanted sympathy... (All in good fun Grump) I will explain my motive for posting about IBB. My front row seat leads me to think more optimistically about IBB than some of you sitting further from the action. I'm reading the tea leaves differently because of conversations with my husband and I hope to offer encouragement during a time of uncertainty. When he calls home late at night he sounds tired, but not discouraged. I haven't seen any polishing just a lot of hard work and lots of time spent at the table.

 

[Diesel]

If it were to fall apart at the last hour more than money would be lost. IBB is tangible evidence that the Union and Management have learned to work together for the betterment of all. The potential gain in the labor-management relationship can have a huge, long-lasting impact.

Lets all sing and dance around the table Kumbaya.

Can't wait till 2010 for NJW round 2 comes back.

BTW we ALL work weekends.

 

[Ultra Grump]

I was teasing you for complaining about those 30 plus pages added to the contract in IBB.

Um, different thread.

My front row seat leads me to think more optimistically about IBB than some of you sitting further from the action. I'm reading the tea leaves differently because of conversations with my husband and I hope to offer encouragement during a time of uncertainty.

Care to share?

I haven't seen any polishing just a lot of hard work and lots of time spent at the table.

Ever polish a turd? Takes a lot of hard work, and a lot of time to get that sucker good and shiny.

 

[hopalong]

Thanks njw for shedding some light. I'm starting to feel more confident that this thing will be presented.
You sound awfully optimistic. Could you give us any details?