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[DO-82 driver]

Tell me where its at in the FOM, otherwise I will be taking you to the CPs office for harrassment.

Ski,

This is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

Let me get this straight, are you saying that you will refuse to provide our owners with the premium service they have grown to expect becasue you happen to fly with a Captain who voted against this IBB proposal? Is this what you are saying?

I wonder if you would have gotten this job if you had given any indication of how you really feel about this business.

This only hints as to what the domicile system has done to this Company.

I think spending an entire tour with you would be very interesting.

 

[DLF8108]

NJA Aircraft Cleaning

NJA FOM Page 4-4
4.4.1.a Routine Aircraft Cleaning....the crew will complete the interior cleaning...

There it is--a team effort

Now back to our regular thread topic

 

[realityman]

Awww, c'mon guys. You can't blame Ski for not being able to find something in our 3500-page FOM that's rapidly becoming bigger than our US Jepp binders!

Ski, even if it wasn't outlined in the FOM, do you really think you'd have a leg to stand on? Here's a hint: after 10.5 years with the company, I can tell you plainly that you'd lose. End of story.

Gosh Ski, if I took your attitude, then if this thing passes and has things in it that I don't like, and I learn that you voted yes on it, then you wouldn't mind if I just left you to do everything and went to the hotel?

Grow up.

 

[Ultra Grump]

I'm beginning to hope it doesn't pass, just so crybabies like skiandsurf will stomp their feet and quit.

 

[x402]

Tell me where its at in the FOM, otherwise I will be taking you to the CPs office for harrassment.

I can assure you, there would be no harrassment. One call and you'll be assigned additional IOE training so you understand your duties as an SIC. I'm sure that failing that re-training would not look good in your file and would make it difficult for the MEC to help you going forward.

 

[RNObased]

Tell me where its at in the FOM, otherwise I will be taking you to the CPs office for harrassment.

You are so clueless it is a crime. Making you do your job is harrassment, oh I'm sorry.

One call, dumba$$ is all it would take. I would gladly go with you BTW. I have known most of the CP for many years.

 

[FLYLOW22]

I was talking to one of the pilots that does interviews for NJs (he interviewed me). He said that they are not having any problem getting quality pilots. The only problem is training slots at Flight Safety. The Domiciles do not appear to be a problem for the company. They are done interviewing for this year.

Well, of couse he would say that, wouldn't he?

What is his info source?

Would NJA be completely truthful in answering the same question asked by him or would the info given have a certain "truth" to it? You must remember, pilots are int the interviews to add a technical aspect to the process. In the end, they are still pilots and must be "controlled" as such.

Do you think that NJA is attracting the same quality of candidates that SWA, DAL, CAL currently is?

Do you think that NJA is RETAINING F/Os at the same rate as the above?

If the answers to the above 2 questions is anything but YES then the Domiciles (among other things) needs to be address.

The above info I have typed deals with the basing issue. IBB deals with SO MUCH MORE than just basing.

I personally (and I'm not alone) will not vote for a document that "improves" basing while dilluting several other sections. This IBB thing was billed as win-win and a "progressive contract".

Anything else will get trashed.

A few things though... I will thank my Union leadership for exploring the opportunity of better contract language. I will not look back at this IBB as a fail opportunity. I will look forward to 2010 as I should; contract amendable time.

If we can't get a PROGRESSIVE, WIN-WIN package (all of it) now, we will work to improve the WHOLE thing at the appropriate time.

No one is advocating sacrificing a group of junior pilots. You've heard this before... you knew the deal getting hired on here. We accomplished so much in CBA 2005 BUT basing was and is an eyesore.

I categorically DISAGREE that hiring is not a problem for NJA. Basing was one of the issues theat BOTH sides have admitted needs to be addressed. Period. End of story.

Ski, if you can't understand the concept of "windows of opportunity" then you will not understand negotiations and the emotions you will normally feel during a negotiating period (section 6 or IBB) then Unionized aviation labor is not for you.

If you can't understand that the whole group will either lose or gain based on the understanding of those emotions and the timing of actions to deal with the contract issues and opportunities available through negotiations then Unionized aviaiton labor is not for you.

And on to your difficulty determining what your job function is...

If you don't/can't understand the concept of teamwork while working on the road and embrace the fact that the PIC and the SIC have specific duties, then I can't help you.

My job on the road is not to tell you what to do, but as PIC I will delegate any duty (per FOM 1-34) that I see needs done by the SIC in the interests of safety, Owner satisfaction and finally workload balance.

One thing about the FOM... NJA can find ANYTHING to discipline you for in the FOM on any day, and flight, any time. It's quite a game to keep up with every single rule and policy during the day. If you want to play "trick the tricker" and split hairs in determining "what's my job" and "what's not my job" then you are not getting the big picture here and you will lose. They will win. Fair warning.

Again, its not my job to chastize you here or on the road. On the road, as a PIC, I will try to show you the way. If you will not listen, I will enable the appropriate party to provide the education to you starting with the Union.

You know who comes next.

Bottom line: Pull your weight and do you job. There is a lot of work to be done to prep for any Owner flight and I personally need a dedicated SIC who "gives a rip" to make the flight an enjoyable one for the Bigs.

Rant over. Either you get it or you don't.

PM me if you would like access to official or unofficial information that will enable you to do enhance your understanding or your job function while acting as an SIC here at NJA. You might just save yourself (and your Captain) many gray hairs.

 

[skiandsurf]

Ski, if you can't understand the concept of "windows of opportunity" And on to your difficulty determining what your job function is...

If you don't/can't understand the concept of teamwork while working on the road and embrace the fact that the PIC and the SIC have specific duties, then I can't help you.

Windows of opportunity...the company is reporting half a billion dollars in profit. What will they report in 2010. The economy is dropping. Where will the economy be in 2010. If we can get a 10% raise now and a 10% raise in 2010, that is better than a 10% raise in 2010. Who knows what we will get this time or in 2010. But I will surely look at it before I say "no". ....funny thing, most guys that I talk to havent even watched the "hangar video", and there mind is already made.

As far as team work, I know teamwork. Within the last 6 months, I wrote my first email to my CP. I got a free dinner for my efforts. Has your CP bought you dinner?

Guys, this is all in fun and good spirits.

 

[Diesel]

I wrote my first email to my CP. I got a free dinner for my efforts. Has your CP bought you dinner?

Yes. So has OS, Scheduling, and the flight managers. I've also bought them dinner for the hard work they have done.

Its not all fun its business.

 

[buckeyes95]

Yeah, Jr guys knew the deal when they got hired, but its still an A scale and a B scale. I know many people feel the same way I do. The drives getting real old, real fast. Either it goes away, and the B scale with it, or I go away.

 

[Diesel]

Its an A scale B scale in your own mind. The only difference is the HBA's which after a percentage of new hires you can then become eligible for.

You should have looked at the drive before getting hired. Are you still going to be screaming its a B scale when you're only driving to 100 instead of all HBA's? I think you will after the newness of the 100 wears off and you know there is an HBA airport closer.

I'd hate to see the company lose pilots but accepting a short term fix for a long term problem is not the answer.

 

[FLYLOW22]

As far as team work, I know teamwork. Within the last 6 months, I wrote my first email to my CP. I got a free dinner for my efforts. Has your CP bought you dinner?

Yes. A few times. I have returned the favor when the situation warranted. Never for CPs though... they are machines that never eat. They only write memos!!! JK.

 

[Pugnacious G]

Reality check to ski and bucks

When I was hired, CMH was the ONLY domicile. People either moved to CMH or they commuted. Nobody cried about it. I don't know of a single pilot who quit because they had to drive too far. People only quit if they found a better job. The domiciles only expanded when they ran out of applicants. I get the distinct impression that y'all somehow didn't know that you were signing on to the post-rat deal.

Look buckeyes95, you're absolutely right that it's a B scale and it's wrong. It needs to be fixed, and the '05 CBA allows the company to fix it tomorrow by expanding HBA availability to 100% of the work force. Guess what, they won't do it because they think we'll give them something back. Focus your agression on the company or move to your domicile or quit. Blaming pre-rats will get you nowhere.

I'm not a yes or no voter yet but I'm sure getting sick of this post-rat whining. I and most pre-rats will not give one dime away to get you what you deserve. That may sound selfish to you, but you should applaud our resolve. It's the company that needs to make it right. The company doesn't need us to give anything back. Look at the profits. They just need to make it right for you. I sincerely hope they do.

 

[skiandsurf]

When I was hired, CMH was the ONLY domicile. People either moved to CMH or they commuted. Nobody cried about it. I don't know of a single pilot who quit because they had to drive too far. People only quit if they found a better job. The domiciles only expanded when they ran out of applicants. I get the distinct impression that y'all somehow didn't know that you were signing on to the post-rat deal.

Look buckeyes95, you're absolutely right that it's a B scale and it's wrong. It needs to be fixed, and the '05 CBA allows the company to fix it tomorrow by expanding HBA availability to 100% of the work force. Guess what, they won't do it because they think we'll give them something back. Focus your agression on the company or move to your domicile or quit. Blaming pre-rats will get you nowhere.

I'm not a yes or no voter yet but I'm sure getting sick of this post-rat whining. I and most pre-rats will not give one dime away to get you what you deserve. That may sound selfish to you, but you should applaud our resolve. It's the company that needs to make it right. The company doesn't need us to give anything back. Look at the profits. They just need to make it right for you. I sincerely hope they do.

I ask you this...does the company want more bases or is it the union trying to get more bases? From what I know, and thats not much, is that they are filling the classes with quality people. And yes, guys are quiting with a fresh type rating, but is it due to bases or money. So, what is the problem? is it the bases or the low pay? I am guessing that guys would put up with the drive (or move) if the money was enough to justify.

On the union board, someone asked who initated this IBB, company or union, and there is no good answer.

BTW, I live in So Cal, so I am fine with LAX. SNA is closer, but I will probably stay with LAX if given a choice......never liked flying into SNA on an airliner.

 

[DO-82 driver]

This is sooo far beyond opening up new bases.

I am sure that there are sooo many changes in this new contract that many people are going to find reasons to vote "PRO" and many reasons to vote "CON".

I am very interrested in the LOA's and the specific language associated with them. I'll be super critical for loopholes.

The PTO thing is another can of worms. There are numerous questions about this program that MUST be addressed before my "YES" vote is secured.

Seniority rights as it pertains to bidding.

Having to declare an alternative HBA and then having to use that HBA by 2010 has some really negative tones.

I also feel the Base Airport list, which is fixed at 100 right now, may be increased at the last minute to apease the masses.

Oh yeah.....and $$$$$.

I'm sure the message board discussion will shine a light on more of the Benefits and Pitfalls of this new contract. That's when my decision will be made.

 

[gunfyter]

82,

If I lose money (or have to work more days) I vote no... Otherwise I vote yes. In 10 days we all find out. I can live with the other stuff (as we think we know it now).

Like to see HBA for all. But if e-board thinks 100 bases is best they can get ... I can go for that... as long as it does not cost me money.

But remember... 18 day schedule or the 15 Flex (with no HH days) is NOT a replacement for the Reserve.

 

[Cavpilot]

From what I know, and thats not much, is that they are filling the classes with quality people.

You may want to ask an IOE guy about some of those "quality people". Qualified...yes. Quality...sometimes.

 

[hopalong]

As a newbie it is unfortunate that some of us are not understanding the importance of respecting and really listening to the senior pilots. With any company, seniority has privelages, as it should. We are the new guys on the block and I think we owe a thanks to those who fought the fight for us to have an appealing job at NJA. They have seen more from the company and lived it and feel as if they just fought a long hard fight to find themselves having to be in a position to possibly give up certain things. And when I read these message boards it's hard not to cringe when someone is willing to give less than extraordinary service to a customer because he/she is mad at pilots who will vote no. Ski, please don't represent us in that way. Some of us newbies including myself have excellent work ethic and will never compromise it because it is built in our character.
With that being said, I see a lot of the senior pilots
getting defensive. I would encourage everyone to watch the hangar video to get as much information as possible. I think we all need to have an open mind come Oct.1 and not be hasty. After reading some threads, I get the impression that some of the senior pilots will simply vote "no" just to spite the whiny newbies. Please lets all have an open mind and put
our feelings aside that day. We need to really read through it all and think long and hard before we vote. I would hope that we are all mature enough to consider what we all will gain and sacrifice before we vote.

 

[skiandsurf]

As a newbie

As a newbie, the senior guys look at you as if you are not a "quality" pilot.

 

[DO-82 driver]

As a newbie, the senior guys look at you as if you are not a "quality" pilot.

Ski, I start every tour assuming that the person I'm flying with is a professional and I trust that since they have completed IOE they are fully able and willing to perform their job with efficiency and accuracy.

I tell them right off if I can help out let me know I'd jump right in. Its a 2 person crew.

After day 2 I can usually tell if the person I'm flying with is a slacker or is on their game. Sometimes all they need to do is develop a routine and I understand that takes time.

I'd kindly ask that you not generalize by assuming that the "senior guys" are unprofessional and prejudicial.