Net Jets Gateway Cities

[skiandsurf]

I'd kindly ask that you not generalize by assuming that the "senior guys" are unprofessional and prejudicial.

I dont think I ever said that "the senior guys are unprofessional", but I am almost certain that "some" of the senior guys think that the quality of the newhires is less than desirable.

Not to keep throwing fuel on the fire, but....is the issue the Domiciles or the Money? I have asked this question, but no answer.

And Olsen and RTS said that they want "Netjets to be one of the best aviation jobs". I am willing to see what they think is the best aviation job.

 

[DO-82 driver]

I dont think I ever said that "the senior guys are unprofessional", but I am almost certain that "some" of the senior guys think that the quality of the newhires is less than desirable. When you wrote that the "senior guys mlook at you as if you are not a "quality" pilot" implies that senior guys judge the person they are flying with and decide what they are before the first leg starts. I would say this is unprofessional regardless of what profession you are in.

Not to keep throwing fuel on the fire, but....is the issue the Domiciles or the Money? I have asked this question, but no answer. The issue is every section that has changed under the IBB agreement. If it were just Domiciles, I think this would be a slam-dunk. But its now awhole lot more and I am not prepared to vote for anything that will cost me anything, be it cash, H-days, sick time, PTO, HBA relocation or contract amendable date.

And Olsen and RTS said that they want "Netjets to be one of the best aviation jobs". I am willing to see what they think is the best aviation job. RTS has been saying this for the past 9 years, but those are just words....action is what puts meat on the table. They know that in order for this place to grow at the pace they wish, $1 billion for 96 planes, they MUST attrack alot of qualified people. 5 Domiciles isn't going to cut it in the long run.

.......

 

[RNObased]

The drives getting real old, real fast. Either it goes away, and the B scale with it, or I go away.

The thing that gets me Buckeye, is that you seem the think the newhires are the only that EVER had to drive to a base around here. This kills me, many of us did it for five or more years, so you aren't telling us anything we don't already know.

 

[RNObased]

I dont think I ever said that "the senior guys are unprofessional", but I am almost certain that "some" of the senior guys think that the quality of the newhires is less than desirable.

Some are, some aren't. Like anything else. Had a new hire on my plane last year that refused to lift a finger with regards to the owners. Had a little chat with him, things got tolarable for the rest of the tour.

He was thinking about going back to Delta, I told him that was a great idea. He did go back there, NJA wasn't his gig.

But slamming the senior guys because of how you think we look at you, is BS.

 

[theskyking]

Yeah, Jr guys knew the deal when they got hired, but its still an A scale and a B scale. I know many people feel the same way I do. The drives getting real old, real fast. Either it goes away, and the B scale with it, or I go away.

How did you take this job without expecting to make that drive till sometime after 2010?

 

[theskyking]

I hope I fly with you, or other NO voters. I will do my job, as described in the FOM. I will not clean the cabin. I will not get the catering. I will do all of my duties in the cockpit, and when the passengers leave, I will be right behind them.

After the last flight, I will go to the hotel while you clean and restock the plane. And dont forget to put the engine covers on.

See you in 2010.

Skiandsurf,

I see you are passionate about your stance on this. I can appreciate that. What I'm waiting for is for you to take this same stance on the 1108 website. It sure is easy to beat your chest and make a stand when you are hiding behind a screen name. Let's see you make those threats when you actually have to back them up.

This vote will be a democratic process. The minority will have to accept the results. That includes you if it doesn't pass. Throwing a fit is something my two year old would do. If it does pass, does that give those who voted no a free pass on acting in a unprofessional, selfish manner? No, so stop this juvenile argument and add something productive to the conversation.

 

[dillfer]

What's a Rat?

 

[skiandsurf]

Skiandsurf,

No, so stop this juvenile argument and add something productive to the conversation.

I am trying to find out who has initiated this IBB, was it the company or the union? no one seems to know or wants to tell.

Also trying to determine does the company really want to change the domicile issue....it doesnt seem like they want to.

And finally, why do guys quit? is it the drive, or the low SIC pay.

 

[DO-82 driver]

Ski,

send your questions to each member of the MEC and E-Board. I'm sure someone will answer them.

If you are hoping they will be answered here....forget it.

Go to the source directly...this is a very open administration.

If I were you I'd be very concerned about this whole duel pay for the XL/XLS.... Man!!! people are steamed about this one!!!!!

Guess it MIGHT cost some people some money....I'm sure they are going to make it up somewhere.

 

[buckeyes95]

To everyone that seems to be attacking me about the drive, I knew what it was and I knew it would be until 2010. I also know that you had to drive before. That being said it is currently an A and B scale when you have different rules for different parts of the pilot group. I knew the drive and was prepared for it. It is now starting to wear on me. The airlines are starting to hire, and with them better FO pay is offered. My whole point is that if this isnt addressed, I think the turnover rate will only get worse.

 

[gutshotdraw]

After day 2 I can usually tell if the person I'm flying with is a slacker or is on their game.

It takes you until DAY 2???? I can usually tell by LEG 2

 

[DO-82 driver]

Hey, I'm generous...... trying to help the guy out.

 

[x402]

To everyone that seems to be attacking me about the drive, I knew what it was and I knew it would be until 2010. I also know that you had to drive before. That being said it is currently an A and B scale when you have different rules for different parts of the pilot group. I knew the drive and was prepared for it. It is now starting to wear on me. The airlines are starting to hire, and with them better FO pay is offered. My whole point is that if this isnt addressed, I think the turnover rate will only get worse.

There had better be a huge raise or this thing isn't going to pass. They are tweeking too many things, the latest, No Diff' pay for Xl/XLS pilots isn't going to sit well.
All you swimmers should stay tuned.......

 

[Diesel]

Day 1 sometime between before starting engines checklist and the nutcracker test.

 

[FLYLOW22]

As a newbie, the senior guys look at you as if you are not a "quality" pilot.

Call it whatever you want. There is a learning curve doing what we do here at NetJets.

I THOUGHT that I knew this job pretty well after the 1st 2 years. After 5+, I've realize that I too was on a learning curve for much of that.

I'm not talking about just manipulating controls. I talking about dealing with certain FBOs, Owner issues, high workload airports, making quick decisions which either way could make you look like the bad man, remembering that the BED locker is useless so don't rely on it for anything etc, etc.

This job is so much about service and so little about flying. It's absolutely expected that flying is already not only handled, but mastered when stepping on this property.

What does someone who is at the top of his/her game have to offer NetJets and flying partners (PICs)? Total attention (or as much as possible) to focusing on the Owner and service and developing those skills.

As a former airline guy, most of my people skills would get me an award as "greatest retard" when talking to Mr. and Mrs. Big about something they found pertinent or useful.

The learning curve is normal. Top of game folks make that learning curve shorter and that's better for everyone here.

Time is spent on learning service techniques rather than learning to fly into challenging environments.

That being said, I'll fly with who I am paired with. I assume the guy next to me has checked out just like me. It's up to him/her to prove themselves differently. I would also be inaccurate to say that I just sit there and let them flop around aimlessly without providing some suggestions to smooth things along. Guys did it for me several times when I was learning service technique.

 

[acaTerry]

The economy is dropping. Where will the economy be in 2010.

Uh... look a little closer. Turn off the drive-by media and look the financial pages. The economy is doing fine.

 

[Dr Pepper]

You may want to ask an IOE guy about some of those "quality people". Qualified...yes. Quality...sometimes.

Let us all be clear. There are bad PICs and there are bad SICs at all companies and at all levels of seniority. There are also plenty of great PICs and SICs. And there are those that are not overly terrible and not outstanding, they just get the job done. Each one of us gets to choose which one we want to be.

 

[Dr Pepper]

This is sooo far beyond opening up new bases.

I am sure that there are sooo many changes in this new contract that many people are going to find reasons to vote "PRO" and many reasons to vote "CON".

I am very interrested in the LOA's and the specific language associated with them. I'll be super critical for loopholes.

The PTO thing is another can of worms. There are numerous questions about this program that MUST be addressed before my "YES" vote is secured.

Seniority rights as it pertains to bidding.

Having to declare an alternative HBA and then having to use that HBA by 2010 has some really negative tones.

I also feel the Base Airport list, which is fixed at 100 right now, may be increased at the last minute to apease the masses.

Oh yeah.....and $$$$$.

I'm sure the message board discussion will shine a light on more of the Benefits and Pitfalls of this new contract. That's when my decision will be made.

I hope that everyone will not only read what is in this IBB, but what is not in it. SCOPE. This topic plays a huge role in potential earnings. No scope and a new amendable date could easily buy a no vote from me, despite me wanting relief from LAX. If we give a lot back now, what bargaining power will we retain in the next round to fix this growing problem.

 

[Guitar Guy]

I hope that everyone will not only read what is in this IBB, but what is not in it. SCOPE.

Just wait for 10/1. We'll see what all of the details are. And B.O. is on record as saying that his focus for 2008 is squarely on scope.

There's been a small hint by an MEC member that perhaps scope will be addressed in the proposal that we'll see on 10/1.

 

[Pugnacious G]

Just wait for 10/1. We'll see what all of the details are. And B.O. is on record as saying that his focus for 2008 is squarely on scope.

There's been a small hint by an MEC member that perhaps scope will be addressed in the proposal that we'll see on 10/1.

2008 perhaps. Unfortunately B.O. said flatly at last weeks meeting that scope would be unchanged in the '07 IBB.

 

[Outta Here]

But have you also heard B.O. say many times that things are changing day to day even hour to hour. Why Not wait until OCT.1st

 

[Dr Pepper]

I am all for reading on Oct 1st. '08 sounds like the beginnings of the legal action in regards to NJI, but how does that address NJE and the future NetJets creations? My point - if you don't read about scope on 1 Oct, don't forget about it.

 

[Q Service]

Tell me where its at in the FOM, otherwise I will be taking you to the CPs office for harrassment.

FOM Section 4.4.1​

Routine Aircraft Cleaning

​

– The Pilot-in-Command is responsible for the aircraft condition and shall keep the aircraft as clean as possible. Prior to leaving the aircraft, the crew will complete the interior cleaning and insure the aircraft is in a “ready to go” condition.


Jackass

​

 

[netjetwife]

2008 perhaps. Unfortunately B.O. said flatly at last weeks meeting that scope would be unchanged in the '07 IBB.

PG, I do believe that was meant as a reassurance that scope would not be weakened in the IBB proposal. NJ pilots have one of the best scope clauses in the industry. I'm surprised that some seem to think that those involved in IBB are less concerned now about scope than they were in 2005. Just because they aren't at liberty to report every conversation taking place at the bargaining table doesn't mean that an issue isn't being discussed. Furthermore, it's a safe bet that they are every bit as concerned with job security as the next pilot and have more of the inside scoop when it comes to the company's plans for the future. My husband isn't worried about scope.

My family hopes that the spirit of unity that gave us the bypass pay bid (as always, thanks guys!) will again prove that the NJ pilots do believe a Union's role is to work together as a group to achieve overall improvements to the contract. The most junior pilots are still underpaid and their QOL is lagging behind. My family is doing what we can to change that. We view a solid pay raise and 100 bases as progress for the Union. Those who think otherwise ought to step forward and volunteer their time and energy. I suggest that it's not as easy as you think and takes much more sacrifice of personal time than most are willing to give.

Hoping for the best,
Netjetwife

 

[Diesel]

My husband isn't worried about scope.

He should be. Or we could just ask him.

We view a solid pay raise and 100 bases as progress for the Union.

Sorry sometimes it just isn't about the union but about the pilots.

Those who think otherwise ought to step forward and volunteer their time and energy. I suggest that it's not as easy as you think and takes much more sacrifice of personal time than most are willing to give.

Right but its still a volunteer army.

 

[netjetwife]

I thought NJ pilots equated the pilot group with the Union. To clarify, my family uses the two words interchangeably--even the kids. We are thinking about the pilots, especially those who are underpaid and have to commute and/or live in a location not of their choosing.

There's a difference between remaining vigilant and viewing an issue as an immediate threat. It's my observation that those in the know aren't sounding the alarm over scope. That suggests that their insight is based on IBB and/or interaction with upper management.

To use the volunteer army analogy, my husband is currently up at the front. You can ask him his opinion about scope, but this is crunch time and distractions aren't in the best interest of the group. From the NJ board it appears that the "marching orders" are: be patient, keep the faith, and read the entire document. Considering the sacrifices that some families are making for the greater good, that's a small thing to ask. NJW

 

[Ultra Grump]

From the NJ board it appears that the "marching orders" are: be patient, keep the faith, and read the entire document.

Apparently, we don't have to.

We view a solid pay raise and 100 bases as progress for the Union. Those who think otherwise ought to step forward and volunteer their time and energy.

We should either vote yes, or run for office next time around. Right?

The most junior pilots are still underpaid and their QOL is lagging behind. My family is doing what we can to change that.

This kills me. I understand your support for your husband's union role, but what exactly is "your family" doing to change that?

 

[netjetwife]

...We should either vote yes, or run for office next time around. Right? ... but what exactly is "your family" doing to change that?

That's not quite what I said, UG. To be precise: We view a solid pay raise and 100 bases as progress for the Union. Those who think otherwise ought to step forward and volunteer their time and energy. I suggest that it's not as easy as you think and takes much more sacrifice of personal time than most are willing to give. My intended point is that it's easy to criticize the work of others from the comfort of your easy chair, but could you produce better results? If so, please help the group achieve the gains you're calling for. It isn't even necessary to run for office; there are plenty of volunteer positions on numerous committees. Common sense dictates that the larger the talent pool the easier it is to achieve the desired results. Certainly the risk of burn-out goes down when there are more helping to carry the load.

My family gives up lots of the together time all the pilots value highly, and we have been non-stop for the last few years. Additionally, my husband has lost income because of time away from the line. I am not complaining, mind you-- just explaining. I was satisfied with my post, but apparently you weren't. Your name is quite fitting, isn't it?... Ultra Grump... My sympathy to those disappointed by what they've seen from IBB--so far. NJW

 

[Diesel]

To be precise: We view a solid pay raise and 100 bases as progress for the Union.

Who is we? HBA's for all would be solid progress. We screwed up the first time around and now is a chance to either get it right or watch HBA's as a whole die a slow 5 year death. Because the 100 will be the final 100 in the end if we allow it.

My intended point is that it's easy to criticize the work of others from the comfort of your easy chair, but could you produce better results? If so, please help the group achieve the gains you're calling for. It isn't even necessary to run for office; there are plenty of volunteer positions on numerous committees. Common sense dictates that the larger the talent pool the easier it is to achieve the desired results.

Ahh yes the if you're not volunteering you shouldn't speak out. Hmmmm where else in our government have I heard that. insert jeopardy music.

Thats the beauty of 1 pilot 1 vote.

 

[Ultra Grump]

That's not quite what I said, UG.

It's pretty much exactly what you said. "Those who think otherwise ought to step forward and volunteer their time and energy." Pretty clear.

To be precise: We view a solid pay raise and 100 bases as progress for the Union. Those who think otherwise ought to step forward and volunteer their time and energy. I suggest that it's not as easy as you think and takes much more sacrifice of personal time than most are willing to give.

The underlined part is certainly true, but doesn't automatically qualify whatever the leadership puts out as "yes-worthy."

My intended point is that it's easy to criticize the work of others from the comfort of your easy chair, but could you produce better results?

Probably not, but it doesn't matter. I am not the one in a leadership position, with my wife on message boards acting as a cheerleader for this proposal.

If so, please help the group achieve the gains you're calling for. It isn't even necessary to run for office; there are plenty of volunteer positions on numerous committees.

I have volunteered time in the past, and may again in the future, although the beat-down some have gotten for not toeing the union line over the IBB gives me pause.

My family gives up lots of the together time all the pilots value highly, and we have been non-stop for the last few years. Additionally, my husband has lost income because of time away from the line.

Every pilot's family gives up time - it's the nature of the business. Your husband's choice to work in 1108 leadership has not resulted in a loss of income, any more than my decision not to bid the reserve schedule has resulted in a loss of income for me. It's a choice we both made, with the resulting salary implications. We both have the potential to earn more, but choose not to.

I am not complaining, mind you-- just explaining. I was satisfied with my post, but apparently you weren't. Your name is quite fitting, isn't it?... Ultra Grump...

Yep, sure is. Never been much of a rah-rah yes-man. Besides, if you spent much time in an Ultra, you'd be grumpy, too.

My sympathy to those disappointed by what they've seen from IBB--so far. NJW

Sympathy is unneeded and unwarranted. We'll see (or maybe not) on Oct 1 whether our disappointment is unfounded or not.