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Negotiations & The Cost of "Heck No!"

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I am Management

Yes, It's true.....I am the head of a major airline's negotiating committee, and I have been taking names for months of all you S.O.B.s on these boards for a long time now. I am just about to the point where I can figure out which of you are other management people lurking under a psudonym. Then I can eliminate those guys, and figure out which companies the rest of you work for, and then by golly,, I'll have you all in my clutches. Yes, I think that out of the roughly 80,000 pilots who work under ALPA and APA, the roughly 100 or so repeat posters on these boards, will give me a scientific sampling of the sentiment of the rank and file pilots who never even heard of this web site. I will surely have the upper hand in writing up a "final offer" for your next contract! MWOOHAHAHAHAHAH
 
Originally posted by TremeSurplus,

Again, thank you. I find ALPA to be an interesting study of human nature. If what you say about the Comair pilot group is true, than they have been able to achieve something truly amazing.

Treme,

Thank you for your thought provoking reply. It is nice to exchange points of view without vitriol and animosity.

I agree that ALPA, as a whole, is an interesting study. My views of the Comair group are of course somewhat biased and reflect a world that, on the inside, may not be as "perfect" as I try to portray. In general however, I do not think that what I have said diverges much from what I have experienced as a member of that group. Naturally I am concerned that the bond between CMR pilots could disintegrate if the "right sequence" of events were to present itself. However, I hang on to the optimism that it will not.

As I wrote to you I was trying to convey my own experiences with the Comair pilot group, not with the ALPA. My experiences with "the Association" are a horse of a very different color. The two (CMR as a small group and ALPA as the umbrella) are in marked contrast to each other. This is no accident. Comair pilot leaders spent years (literally) in a concentrated effort to bring about internal unity and to eschew the ALPA standard of dog-eat-dog. It was not easy but we did it.

I would not define my experiences with the ALPA as satisfactory (among the reasons I did not appreciate a comparison with your former Chairman). ALPA is of course not a true entity, is not alive and does not think. The "Association" is no more than a reflection of the individuals and coalitions that control it from time to time. As an example, there have been many Presidents of these United States. Only a handful have been notable enough to remember with favor. The leaders of ALPA are no different and most, if not all, have been servants of their self-interest as opposed to champions of the profession that they claim to be. I am not young (unfortunately) and in addition to reading about ALPA's history I have been able to watch it unfold directly both as a member and an "insider" for a long time. What you see on the surface as ALPA is decidedly not what you get. ALPA's leadership has been rife with double speaking, double-dealing, backbiting opportunists with little interest in anything other than there own power. That ALPA has done as well as it has is not a tribute to its political leaders. It has survived and prospered in spite of them rather than because of them. I think that is mostly because the staff (of ALPA) is professional and dedicated. There have been truly outstanding individual pilots and staff employees that have given years of their lives unselfishly to developing ALPA's expertise in the areas of Safety, aeromedical, accident investigation, and liaison with the regulatory agencies (CAB/FAA/NMB). ALPA has also done well in the political arena with congressional legislation that favors the interests of airline pilots. ALPA has been effective in organizing airline pilots and financial analysis of airline operations.

Where ALPA glaringly falls short is in Representation. ALPA has failed in developing inter relationships between the member airlines and the governance of the Association. ALPA has not succeeded in creating unity of purpose among its membership, but instead fosters conflict of interest and divisiveness. ALPA maintains an internal political structure that is without balance or oversight. Power and control of the institution is concentrated in the hands of a few, often at the expense of the majority. Protection of the interest of minorities is absent from the ALPA system. In my opinion, this internal political structure is the direct cause of ALPA's representational difficulties. In lieu of minimizing conflicts of interest it fosters and magnifies them. Many have tried to change this as the industry evolved, but the ALPA politicians, those who hold the real power within the association are reluctant to relinquish any of that power. Righting these wrongs would require substantial reorganization of the electoral and governance structure and effect the distribution of "wealth" within the union. That kind of change is not easily achieved.

ALPA is a political organization. The politicians that rise to positions of power within the ALPA are little different from those that we see in other political organizations. There are many (over time) who seek, acquire and wield great power over the institution. There are very few that rise to the level of "statesmen". As Shaw said, "Power corrupts absolute power corrupts absolutely." The way that these people operate behind the scenes is little different than the infamous machine of Mayor Daly (Sr.) of Chicago. Nevertheless we have little else, so we must cling to ALPA and hope that we can achieve change from within. It will continue to be an uphill battle.

You mentioned human nature. It is diverse and complex but there are some basic characteristics, in Western civilization, which we define as "good". They are not prevalent in everyday life and they are virtually absent in ALPA. Most people, self included, are selfish, greedy, inconsiderate, and far less than altruistic. ALPA reflects that lack of quality in character across the board. It's history is one of hegemony, predatory behavior, and exploitation of the weak (member) by the strong. The Code of Ethics if full of all the right virtues. Unfortunately the real code of conduct is as removed from that as it could possibly be. When the opportunity presents itself, one ALPA group is often not only willing but eager to "cut the throat" of another ALPA group.



Unfortunately there are more than a "few" pilot groups at the "ready to pounce". Most are at the ready to undermine and take from others to improve their own lot whenever they can. It is the exception that you find a pilot group unwilling to cheer at the misfortune of another. The loose federation that is ALPA promotes this behavior. The history of ALPA reflects it clearly. We can only hope that within a particular pilot group we could avoid emulating this "norm". That is what I hope for in the Comair group; that is what I think we have achieved.



I'm afraid that exploitation by those in power, be it management or union, of those without power is here to stay. Regional pilots are today the unfortunate beneficiaries of this two-barreled assault. We must fight for survival against our management and against our "union". Most of us are too small to form our own unions and still fend off this two-front attack. Leaving ALPA would only make matters worse for us. We are forced therefore to seek other means of neutering the attacks from our union while we struggle to protect our interests from less than benevolent management. It is a difficult task on both fronts. Many of today's small carriers will not survive it.



We do have some choices other than watching and waiting for the union to attack the challenges (which it is NOT doing). Many Comair pilots and ASA pilots have resorted to the courts in an attempt to prevent that union, which we pay to represent our interests, from destroying our interests as it attempts to promote the conflicting interests of other members. Naturally, this does not make us "popular" with those pilot groups that would lead our destruction if they could. Lack of popularity is a small price to pay in exchange for survival. The only thing I have difficulty in understanding is why the many others that have been deliberately wronged do not choose to defend themselves. They remind me of Lord Chamberlain. Appeasement of their adversaries will not prevent the transfer of their jobs or the loss of their rights or the elimination of their careers. Those that are unwilling to aggressively defend what little they have will surely lose it to those that already have far more, but want it all.

I am sure the good Professor "H" could do a fine job of writing Flying The Line III. We must remember however that his "publisher" is the Air Line Pilots Association itself. Autobiographies are seldom unkind to their authors. What "history" of ALPA is ultimately recorded and published in "Volume III" is not likely to be "complete". If he tells all, he will simply not be funded or published. If he tells what the powers that be wish to have told, we will see FTL III. I know the good professor and he is an honorable man. I wish I could say the same for those who control the publication of his historical accounts of the ALPA. They will simply exclude him from those things that they do not wish him to know, lest he write them down. It has happened before.

Regards
 
Again I appreciate the benefit of your experience.

I will closely watch what happens (as i'm sure we all will on Flightinfo.com) with the Comair concession request. Hopefully there will be a resolution which will allow for continued prosperity for your company without any job-loss.

If the association there is as tight-knit as you say then it should be a model for ALPA to strive for at EACH member company. If you folks can get through this without any furloughs you can be certain that i'll be writing to MY LEC and asking them why we can't be a little bit more like Comair.

Good luck and thanks for answering my questions -- I wish that a few other people had taken the time to offer their opinions.
 
Treme,

I wish you luck and hope you can get back to flying soon.

I have lots of friends at your airline (USAirways). They are all quite senior and none are furloughed. Some are extremely unhappy with the behavior of your MEC and of ALPA and at least one is actively trying to change it. I've wished him luck, but I'm not too optimistic.

I sincerely hope that the Comair group will be able to deal with this request for concessions in a way that is beneficial to Comair pilots and that we can maintain our solidarity throught the process, whatever it may turn out to be. Even if we do, I candidly don't see any major airline emulating our ways. After all, we are just a "commuter" and none of the high and mighty would consider what we do as being important, unless of course it keeps them from getting something that they want.

Thanks for the exchange.
 
Wacky stuff.

Seems to me if you are not "operationally integrated" enough to be one-listed or stapled, you shouldn't have to prop up DAL's financial position if CMR has all its ducks in a row.

Your profitability isn't enough to offset the losses of another division? So you have to pay to continue to allow B777 CAs to retire with "dignity"?

Sorry, I don't feel that any of the groups at the DL empire should be conceding squat. Why the CMR folks should (unless to affect the ASA negotiations?) is a might perplexing.

Forgive an outsider for his $0.02.
 
Treme said:
Just out of curiosity, what are they asking for?

And what are you asking in return? Any idea?

At this point the line pilots have not been informed of exactly what the Company is asking for now what we will ask in return, assuming we talk at all. Lots of rumors but nothing concrete. Stay tuned.

Originally posted by efiscompmon Your profitability isn't enough to offset the losses of another division? So you have to pay to continue to allow B777 CAs to retire with "dignity"?

But of course. Have you no respect for your "elders"? Remember, according to them, they raised us up from naught and gave us everything that we have and then adopted us (by force) for our own good. It is only natural now that if their mortgage is in default, we should pay it. After all, we are members of the "family" (when they need us or want from us). Never mind that we are only the proverbial red-headed bastards at other times.
Sorry, I don't feel that any of the groups at the DL empire should be conceding squat. Why the CMR folks should (unless to affect the ASA negotiations?) is a might perplexing.


More than perplexing my friend, downright unreasonable and unjustified. Hopefully, we will be extremely careful at CMR NOT to negatively affect the ASA negotiations. They stood by us and we should stand by them. JMO.
 
>Just out of curiosity, what are they asking for?

>And what are you asking in return? Any idea?

$8 million per year in wage concessions and changes in work rules. contract would be extended to 07, i think. company would propose pay scale for 30-39 seat aircraft.

obviously the company thinks we might get ACA's DoJets, so that's 32 new airplanes. i'm not up on the particulars, but this is if ACA goes out on its own, they also have the option of keeping them.

supposedly there's 50 cl-65 options floating around out there for DCI. our management has presented the "gateway to growth" plan as a way to reduce costs so that we're more competitive with DCI contract carriers. no one believes that our management has the power to influence whether or not we actually take delivery of any additional aircraft.

ideas i've heard for what we want include an ASA/Comair merger and assurances that ASA/Comair get all future DCI growth. the DCi contract carriers would keep what they have currently.

the nice part about this is we can negotiate with management, but we're free to walk away at any time and wait for our contract to come up in 05.
 
Some of you guys are amazing. This has nothing to do with mainline vs DCI. Management came to us and they were unreasonable so it has ended for now. So now they want to try to get some extra money some where else. Listen to them and if you don't like what you hear then have your MEC walk away. You are not in contract negotiations so you are not obligated to do squat. Managements bonuses are now tied not to profits but to how much they can cut costs. You bet your bottom dollar they are going to try and squeeze every nickel out of everyone.
 
CaptainV said, "the nice part about this is we can negotiate with management, but we're free to walk away at any time and wait for our contract to come up in 05."

The point of my question was: At what cost?
 
DAL737FO said:
This has nothing to do with mainline vs DCI. Management came to us and they were unreasonable so it has ended for now. So now they want to try to get some extra money some where else.

You bet your bottom dollar they are going to try and squeeze every nickel out of everyone.
Wow, how the DAL MEC can spin the truth.

Truth - Delta asked mainline pilots for concessions. DALPA responded that they would take cuts, but only if other employees on the property took similar cuts. Delta responded that other employees on the property already earn industry standard wages, so it did not make sense to cut their pay. The Delta pilots, in comparison, get paid 62% more than the industry average and 47% more than the next most highly paid pilots on planet Earth.

The Delta MEC stuck to its "We only give if they give first" mantra and now Delta is going around to the other employee groups to try to get cuts to appease the DALPA MEC demand that everyone else take cuts.

Strategy - It is political within ALPA. The mainline carrier believes that cuts at Comair and ASA could possibly offset the company's needs for cuts at mainline. After all, if the Delta MEC is the last to negotiate concessions, hopefully Delta management will have the Company turned around by then and the economy will be better.

So again, it is mainline ALPA attacking Connection pilots. The Delta MEC does not intend us harm, but if harming us promotes their agenda they will not hold back.

Again, I think it is a flawed strategy. Making ASA and Comair cheaper makes Connection a more attractive place to put airplanes and by Contract 96 scope, the 100 seat jets would be going to Connection. With a possible result of the RJDC lawsuit being a return to C96 scope, the Delta MEC is playing a risky strategy, perhaps in the belief that their immense negotiating captial could be used to avoid playing by the rules if they get caught again with their hand in the cookie jar.

Amazingly the same junior pilots that are the most rabid supporters of the ALPA spin are the same ones who could get sailed down the river while the senior guys enjoy the preservation of their pay rates. 62% above the industry average for the aircraft type is nothing to be scoffed at and they intend to keep as much of it as is possible at the expense of anyone who has to be sacrificed, including their own junior pilots.
 
Amazingly the same junior pilots that are the most rabid supporters of the ALPA spin are the same ones who could get sailed down the river while the senior guys enjoy the preservation of their pay rates.

So would you catagorize me as a rabid supporter of ALPA? You've got to be kidding me. I've been out on furlough for almost a year and a half. I would like nothing more than for the union to tell manangement that if we took a (insert number here) pay cut then the furloughee's get to come back. Well it doesn't work that way.

Delta managment came to the pilot group for concessions and offered to give nothing in return. (a contract extension was the main concern with the MEC) So negotiations broke off. Now they are coming to you guys. If you don't like what is said then walk away, but don't blame it on the big bad mainline guys. Is that your freaking crutch for everything.

I keep hearing how our contract is limiting your career, well isn't it funny how the mainline seniority list has lost 26% of it's pilots since 911. How much has your list grown? I'm a big boy and we negotiated those block hour percentages so I don't blame anyone but ourselves, however somehow I'm still inhibiting your career.

Good luck with your lawsuit
 
~~~^~~~ said:
Wow, how the DAL MEC can spin the truth.

Truth - Delta asked mainline pilots for concessions. DALPA responded that they would take cuts, but only if other employees on the property took similar cuts. Delta responded that other employees on the property already earn industry standard wages, so it did not make sense to cut their pay. The Delta pilots, in comparison, get paid 62% more than the industry average and 47% more than the next most highly paid pilots on planet Earth.

The Delta MEC stuck to its "We only give if they give first" mantra and now Delta is going around to the other employee groups to try to get cuts to appease the DALPA MEC demand that everyone else take cuts.

Strategy - It is political within ALPA. The mainline carrier believes that cuts at Comair and ASA could possibly offset the company's needs for cuts at mainline. After all, if the Delta MEC is the last to negotiate concessions, hopefully Delta management will have the Company turned around by then and the economy will be better.

So again, it is mainline ALPA attacking Connection pilots. The Delta MEC does not intend us harm, but if harming us promotes their agenda they will not hold back.

Again, I think it is a flawed strategy. Making ASA and Comair cheaper makes Connection a more attractive place to put airplanes and by Contract 96 scope, the 100 seat jets would be going to Connection. With a possible result of the RJDC lawsuit being a return to C96 scope, the Delta MEC is playing a risky strategy, perhaps in the belief that their immense negotiating captial could be used to avoid playing by the rules if they get caught again with their hand in the cookie jar.

Amazingly the same junior pilots that are the most rabid supporters of the ALPA spin are the same ones who could get sailed down the river while the senior guys enjoy the preservation of their pay rates. 62% above the industry average for the aircraft type is nothing to be scoffed at and they intend to keep as much of it as is possible at the expense of anyone who has to be sacrificed, including their own junior pilots.

C'mon fins, you seem like the most levelheaded among our Comair ASA brothers on the board. Get off of the RJDc site for one second and look at some other stuff. I dug this out of the archives. It is an excerpt of the letter Will Buergy put out to the pilots when negotiations broke down:

"It is easy to misrepresent ALPA’s assertion that all stakeholders must participate in the financial recovery of our airline. We have made it clear to management in these discussions that the problem cannot and will not be solved solely by the Delta pilots; we can only do our part. All of the financially restructured airlines have reduced their costs across the board including management, employees, creditors, leasing companies, government agencies, aircraft suppliers, banks, and other related businesses—no airline has restructured by only addressing pilot costs."

Don't you think that Comair and ASA pilots would be included in "pilot costs"? Have you ever talked to Will Buergy? I have. Met him on a flight once. They completely understand exactly what you typed in your post, and really have no desire to see the life of a Comair/ASA f/o to be degraded further. They were quite interested in an industry leading flow, but did not receive cooperation, just dictation.

Of course, they now have a new MEC chairman, so we will see what he has to say.

--a concerned regional pilot
 
scopeCMRandASA said:

--a concerned regional pilot

As a "concerned regional pilot", why don't you tell us what YOU think the Comair pilots should do?

You seem to think and have stated that "we are the problem". What would YOU have "us" (CMR or ASA or CMR/ASA) do to solve the problem(s)?
 
Bill Buergey's spin is a smoke screen. He makes it sound like we will all do our part together, when in reality the Delta MEC has demanded that other employees take cuts BEFORE the Delta MEC will negotiate. It is not a bad strategy, not a kind strategy, but effective at protecting the pay of Delta's senior pilots. No, I have not met the gentleman, but I was sitting about 10 feet away from the new Vice Chair when he admitted the Delta MEC has been lying about the senior management at Delta and their efforts to restructure the airline. He hid behind the lies advising "When we said that, we were just reflecting the mood of our pilot group." So lets get this straight, the MEC distorts the truth, then when caught, blames it on their pilots !?!~~~:)

The Company's position makes sense. Other employee groups earn the industry average for their work. If we cut their pay to below the industry average it is unfair, they will be less productive and seek work else where. Richard Branson just hired away one of Delta's managers. Fred Reid came from Luthansa. There is an international job market for some of these positions.

So I agree with all of you, the Delta pilots did not vote to destroy Comair and ASA. But at the same time their MEC has no reason to protect us and no obligation to do so. When ALPA's economists reported there is a finite amount of money and this is it, the Delta MEC strategy was to offset pilot cuts with cuts from other employees. So no they did not intend to harm us, but their actions do harm us none the less.

Regardless of whether the harm is intentional, this sort of conflicted ALPA bargaining is addressed in the Constitution and Bylaws of our Union and ALPA National would have to step in, if ALPA would follow their own darn rules.

Perhaps this is why Duane Woerth is coming to explain to the Comair pilots why taking a cut is good for them. In advance of his arrival ALPA has asked the Company to stop the RJDC from informing pilots on this issue.
 
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