Negotiations & The Cost of "Heck No!"

[efiscompmon]

Wacky stuff.

Seems to me if you are not "operationally integrated" enough to be one-listed or stapled, you shouldn't have to prop up DAL's financial position if CMR has all its ducks in a row.

Your profitability isn't enough to offset the losses of another division? So you have to pay to continue to allow B777 CAs to retire with "dignity"?

Sorry, I don't feel that any of the groups at the DL empire should be conceding squat. Why the CMR folks should (unless to affect the ASA negotiations?) is a might perplexing.

Forgive an outsider for his $0.02.

 

[surplus1]

Just out of curiosity, what are they asking for?

And what are you asking in return? Any idea?

At this point the line pilots have not been informed of exactly what the Company is asking for now what we will ask in return, assuming we talk at all. Lots of rumors but nothing concrete. Stay tuned.

Originally posted by efiscompmon Your profitability isn't enough to offset the losses of another division? So you have to pay to continue to allow B777 CAs to retire with "dignity"?

But of course. Have you no respect for your "elders"? Remember, according to them, they raised us up from naught and gave us everything that we have and then adopted us (by force) for our own good. It is only natural now that if their mortgage is in default, we should pay it. After all, we are members of the "family" (when they need us or want from us). Never mind that we are only the proverbial red-headed bastards at other times.

Sorry, I don't feel that any of the groups at the DL empire should be conceding squat. Why the CMR folks should (unless to affect the ASA negotiations?) is a might perplexing.

More than perplexing my friend, downright unreasonable and unjustified. Hopefully, we will be extremely careful at CMR NOT to negatively affect the ASA negotiations. They stood by us and we should stand by them. JMO.

 

[captainv]

>Just out of curiosity, what are they asking for?

>And what are you asking in return? Any idea?

$8 million per year in wage concessions and changes in work rules. contract would be extended to 07, i think. company would propose pay scale for 30-39 seat aircraft.

obviously the company thinks we might get ACA's DoJets, so that's 32 new airplanes. i'm not up on the particulars, but this is if ACA goes out on its own, they also have the option of keeping them.

supposedly there's 50 cl-65 options floating around out there for DCI. our management has presented the "gateway to growth" plan as a way to reduce costs so that we're more competitive with DCI contract carriers. no one believes that our management has the power to influence whether or not we actually take delivery of any additional aircraft.

ideas i've heard for what we want include an ASA/Comair merger and assurances that ASA/Comair get all future DCI growth. the DCi contract carriers would keep what they have currently.

the nice part about this is we can negotiate with management, but we're free to walk away at any time and wait for our contract to come up in 05.

 

[DAL737FO]

Some of you guys are amazing. This has nothing to do with mainline vs DCI. Management came to us and they were unreasonable so it has ended for now. So now they want to try to get some extra money some where else. Listen to them and if you don't like what you hear then have your MEC walk away. You are not in contract negotiations so you are not obligated to do squat. Managements bonuses are now tied not to profits but to how much they can cut costs. You bet your bottom dollar they are going to try and squeeze every nickel out of everyone.

 

[Treme]

CaptainV said, "the nice part about this is we can negotiate with management, but we're free to walk away at any time and wait for our contract to come up in 05."

The point of my question was: At what cost?

 

[~~~^~~~]

This has nothing to do with mainline vs DCI. Management came to us and they were unreasonable so it has ended for now. So now they want to try to get some extra money some where else.

You bet your bottom dollar they are going to try and squeeze every nickel out of everyone.

Wow, how the DAL MEC can spin the truth.

Truth - Delta asked mainline pilots for concessions. DALPA responded that they would take cuts, but only if other employees on the property took similar cuts. Delta responded that other employees on the property already earn industry standard wages, so it did not make sense to cut their pay. The Delta pilots, in comparison, get paid 62% more than the industry average and 47% more than the next most highly paid pilots on planet Earth.

The Delta MEC stuck to its "We only give if they give first" mantra and now Delta is going around to the other employee groups to try to get cuts to appease the DALPA MEC demand that everyone else take cuts.

Strategy - It is political within ALPA. The mainline carrier believes that cuts at Comair and ASA could possibly offset the company's needs for cuts at mainline. After all, if the Delta MEC is the last to negotiate concessions, hopefully Delta management will have the Company turned around by then and the economy will be better.

So again, it is mainline ALPA attacking Connection pilots. The Delta MEC does not intend us harm, but if harming us promotes their agenda they will not hold back.

Again, I think it is a flawed strategy. Making ASA and Comair cheaper makes Connection a more attractive place to put airplanes and by Contract 96 scope, the 100 seat jets would be going to Connection. With a possible result of the RJDC lawsuit being a return to C96 scope, the Delta MEC is playing a risky strategy, perhaps in the belief that their immense negotiating captial could be used to avoid playing by the rules if they get caught again with their hand in the cookie jar.

Amazingly the same junior pilots that are the most rabid supporters of the ALPA spin are the same ones who could get sailed down the river while the senior guys enjoy the preservation of their pay rates. 62% above the industry average for the aircraft type is nothing to be scoffed at and they intend to keep as much of it as is possible at the expense of anyone who has to be sacrificed, including their own junior pilots.

 

[DAL737FO]

Amazingly the same junior pilots that are the most rabid supporters of the ALPA spin are the same ones who could get sailed down the river while the senior guys enjoy the preservation of their pay rates.

So would you catagorize me as a rabid supporter of ALPA? You've got to be kidding me. I've been out on furlough for almost a year and a half. I would like nothing more than for the union to tell manangement that if we took a (insert number here) pay cut then the furloughee's get to come back. Well it doesn't work that way.

Delta managment came to the pilot group for concessions and offered to give nothing in return. (a contract extension was the main concern with the MEC) So negotiations broke off. Now they are coming to you guys. If you don't like what is said then walk away, but don't blame it on the big bad mainline guys. Is that your freaking crutch for everything.

I keep hearing how our contract is limiting your career, well isn't it funny how the mainline seniority list has lost 26% of it's pilots since 911. How much has your list grown? I'm a big boy and we negotiated those block hour percentages so I don't blame anyone but ourselves, however somehow I'm still inhibiting your career.

Good luck with your lawsuit

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

Wow, how the DAL MEC can spin the truth.

Truth - Delta asked mainline pilots for concessions. DALPA responded that they would take cuts, but only if other employees on the property took similar cuts. Delta responded that other employees on the property already earn industry standard wages, so it did not make sense to cut their pay. The Delta pilots, in comparison, get paid 62% more than the industry average and 47% more than the next most highly paid pilots on planet Earth.

The Delta MEC stuck to its "We only give if they give first" mantra and now Delta is going around to the other employee groups to try to get cuts to appease the DALPA MEC demand that everyone else take cuts.

Strategy - It is political within ALPA. The mainline carrier believes that cuts at Comair and ASA could possibly offset the company's needs for cuts at mainline. After all, if the Delta MEC is the last to negotiate concessions, hopefully Delta management will have the Company turned around by then and the economy will be better.

So again, it is mainline ALPA attacking Connection pilots. The Delta MEC does not intend us harm, but if harming us promotes their agenda they will not hold back.

Again, I think it is a flawed strategy. Making ASA and Comair cheaper makes Connection a more attractive place to put airplanes and by Contract 96 scope, the 100 seat jets would be going to Connection. With a possible result of the RJDC lawsuit being a return to C96 scope, the Delta MEC is playing a risky strategy, perhaps in the belief that their immense negotiating captial could be used to avoid playing by the rules if they get caught again with their hand in the cookie jar.

Amazingly the same junior pilots that are the most rabid supporters of the ALPA spin are the same ones who could get sailed down the river while the senior guys enjoy the preservation of their pay rates. 62% above the industry average for the aircraft type is nothing to be scoffed at and they intend to keep as much of it as is possible at the expense of anyone who has to be sacrificed, including their own junior pilots.

C'mon fins, you seem like the most levelheaded among our Comair ASA brothers on the board. Get off of the RJDc site for one second and look at some other stuff. I dug this out of the archives. It is an excerpt of the letter Will Buergy put out to the pilots when negotiations broke down:

"It is easy to misrepresent ALPA’s assertion that all stakeholders must participate in the financial recovery of our airline. We have made it clear to management in these discussions that the problem cannot and will not be solved solely by the Delta pilots; we can only do our part. All of the financially restructured airlines have reduced their costs across the board including management, employees, creditors, leasing companies, government agencies, aircraft suppliers, banks, and other related businesses—no airline has restructured by only addressing pilot costs."

Don't you think that Comair and ASA pilots would be included in "pilot costs"? Have you ever talked to Will Buergy? I have. Met him on a flight once. They completely understand exactly what you typed in your post, and really have no desire to see the life of a Comair/ASA f/o to be degraded further. They were quite interested in an industry leading flow, but did not receive cooperation, just dictation.

Of course, they now have a new MEC chairman, so we will see what he has to say.

--a concerned regional pilot

 

[surplus1]

--a concerned regional pilot

As a "concerned regional pilot", why don't you tell us what YOU think the Comair pilots should do?

You seem to think and have stated that "we are the problem". What would YOU have "us" (CMR or ASA or CMR/ASA) do to solve the problem(s)?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Bill Buergey's spin is a smoke screen. He makes it sound like we will all do our part together, when in reality the Delta MEC has demanded that other employees take cuts BEFORE the Delta MEC will negotiate. It is not a bad strategy, not a kind strategy, but effective at protecting the pay of Delta's senior pilots. No, I have not met the gentleman, but I was sitting about 10 feet away from the new Vice Chair when he admitted the Delta MEC has been lying about the senior management at Delta and their efforts to restructure the airline. He hid behind the lies advising "When we said that, we were just reflecting the mood of our pilot group." So lets get this straight, the MEC distorts the truth, then when caught, blames it on their pilots !?!~~~

The Company's position makes sense. Other employee groups earn the industry average for their work. If we cut their pay to below the industry average it is unfair, they will be less productive and seek work else where. Richard Branson just hired away one of Delta's managers. Fred Reid came from Luthansa. There is an international job market for some of these positions.

So I agree with all of you, the Delta pilots did not vote to destroy Comair and ASA. But at the same time their MEC has no reason to protect us and no obligation to do so. When ALPA's economists reported there is a finite amount of money and this is it, the Delta MEC strategy was to offset pilot cuts with cuts from other employees. So no they did not intend to harm us, but their actions do harm us none the less.

Regardless of whether the harm is intentional, this sort of conflicted ALPA bargaining is addressed in the Constitution and Bylaws of our Union and ALPA National would have to step in, if ALPA would follow their own darn rules.

Perhaps this is why Duane Woerth is coming to explain to the Comair pilots why taking a cut is good for them. In advance of his arrival ALPA has asked the Company to stop the RJDC from informing pilots on this issue.