Negotiations & The Cost of "Heck No!"

[Treme]

Perhaps this is why Duane Woerth is coming to explain to the Comair pilots why taking a cut is good for them. In advance of his arrival ALPA has asked the Company to stop the RJDC from informing pilots on this issue.????

What exactly IS Woerth-less coming to a run-of-the-mill union meeting at Comair for???

During the most dire of times at my previous employer he never "graced" us with his presence.

Something's fishy.

 

[George Jetson]

What exactly IS Woerth-less coming to a run-of-the-mill union meeting at Comair for???

During the most dire of times at my previous employer he

Duane Woerth will be at our Continental/Continental Express Contract '02 Amendable Date Rally on Wednesday in Houston. This is the second time that I have seen him at one of our functions in the past 2 years.

GJ

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

As a "concerned regional pilot", why don't you tell us what YOU think the Comair pilots should do?

You seem to think and have stated that "we are the problem". What would YOU have "us" (CMR or ASA or CMR/ASA) do to solve the problem(s)?

As usual, you distort the truth. "We" are not the problem. You are the problem. Our senior pilots are the problem, at least most of them. While tripping over yourselves to prove how big their johnson is, the senior pilots at Comair and ASA have alienated the Delta pilots. It is they who steer this ship. With a little cooperation, instead of antagonism, we might have found some common ground in our negotiations. This is exactly what I think the Comair and ASA pilots should collectively do. Go back and talk to the Delta MEC about the common issues between our groups. I think both should publicly denounce the RJDC AND its supporters. Neither will happen. We both know why.

Do not forget, it was the Delta pilots who were willing to bargain in their negotiations, using their bargaining power, to help out our cause. Until "we" got greedy. That's when they said go take a hike. My suggestion is that the powers that be drop their attitude and ask the Delta MEC if there is opportunity there or not.


--a concerned regional pilot

 

[surplus1]

As usual, you distort the truth. "We" are not the problem. You are the problem. Our senior pilots are the problem, at least most of them. While tripping over yourselves to prove how big their johnson is, the senior pilots at Comair and ASA have alienated the Delta pilots. It is they who steer this ship. With a little cooperation, instead of antagonism, we might have found some common ground in our negotiations. This is exactly what I think the Comair and ASA pilots should collectively do. Go back and talk to the Delta MEC about the common issues between our groups. I think both should publicly denounce the RJDC AND its supporters. Neither will happen. We both know why.

Congratulations on having excluded yourself from the "we" in the group to which you allegedly belong. Based on your commentary, your recommendation brings three things to mind: 1) Your knowledge of the history of events at Comair (if that is where you work) is extremely limited, 2) If you are who you claim to be (a concerned regional pilot) you might also be a distant relative of Benedict Arnold, 3) Your "handle" would be more fitting were it Lord Chamberlain in lieu of the one you have chosen.

Finally, I got pretty much what I expected, not much. "Out of the mouths of babes ..."

For the record we of Comair have always welcomed and solicited dialogue with the DMEC. There is however substantial difference between dialogue and repetitive listening to sermons from the Mount. When they would like to talk with us and not to us, the door will always be open.

Do not forget, it was the Delta pilots who were willing to bargain in their negotiations, using their bargaining power, to help out our cause. Until "we" got greedy. That's when they said go take a hike. My suggestion is that the powers that be drop their attitude and ask the Delta MEC if there is opportunity there or not.

To forget something presumes that you once new it. Speaking of distortions of the truth, you win the blue ribbon with the above. There is nothing in the first three sentences of the above paragraph that even remotely resembles historical reality and therefore, nothing for me to remember. I don't know where you get your "information" but I recommend a more credible source. You seem to know a great deal about the DMEC and its propaganda, but very little of actual events. If you are indeed a "concerned regional pilot" you might devote some time to learning more about the airline you imply you work for and the record of our relationship with the leaders of the Delta group. When did you join "the regional ranks", yesterday?

I'm sorry you despise the senior pilots as much as you say you do. Perhaps if you held less rancor for us we could learn more from your pearls of wisdom and benefit from your experience. If you do not already work for Delta, when you get there I hope you will not hold their senior pilots with the same lack of regard. If you do, they are likely to think of you in the same way that I do.

I agree that there is need for an attitude adjustment, yours. Thinking back to when I was a youngster in my early 20's I recall that my father was a total idiot who knew little of anything. By the time I was 30 he had become the smartest man I'd ever met. It was absolutely amazing how much he had learned in so short a time.

I wish you good luck for the Lord knows you're going to need it.

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

He gets a little testy when someone calls him on his BS doesn't he? It would be funny if it weren't so pathetic. More evidence to support my claim. Thanks Surplus. Is it any wonder that the Delta pilots want nothing to do with us? We have made our own bed by letting these jackals run amok.

--a concerned regional pilot

 

[jarhead]

ScopeCMRand ASA

Sorry Scope, it is you who are the pathectic one. Surplus is right on the mark with you. Benedict Arnold was the name I also thought of after reading your posts. I suspect you are VERY young, but you hide behind non descript "xxx" answers in your 'profile'. Are you afraid that people will see just how wet behind the ears you really are?

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

Re: ScopeCMRand ASA

Sorry Scope, it is you who are the pathectic one. Surplus is right on the mark with you. Benedict Arnold was the name I also thought of after reading your posts. I suspect you are VERY young, but you hide behind non descript "xxx" answers in your 'profile'. Are you afraid that people will see just how wet behind the ears you really are?

A fair question. You are calling me Benedict Arnold for wanting to work with the Delta pilots rather than against them? If this what you are saying, then I guess you are right. I will go one step further in saying that those who consider me a B.A. really want no harmony with the Delta pilots, but prefer to dictate instead their idea of a "cohesive" group on their terms. AKA the RJDC. Like it or not, ALPA cannot/will not be controlled by our small group of pilots. Those who so candidly state that I am kissing Delta ass, admittedly I have many Delta pilot friends, are the ones who really have no desire to see such harmony within the ranks, but only desire to see their agenda furthered.

You and your buddy Surplus can throw your names around and your "experience". You can profess to know it all. I find it funny, however, that the senior pilots which Surplus so despises for protecting their cushy pensions and high paying 777s over at Delta represent the exact same mindset over here at Comair with his mindset. They are both more alike than Surplus wants to admit. The difference? They will retire with 300K a year, 180K annual retirement pay, full medical, flying to exotic destinations 10-12 days a month, 6 weeks of vacation, etc, etc, etc. I am a B.A. for wanting that?!? Are you out of your mind? That would make about 90% of the Comair pilots B.A.s.

LMAOAYAS

--a concerned regional pilot

BTW, I forgot to answer your other question. I don't have a "profile" listed because I don't have to. In all fairness, yours isn't all that impressive to me. My signoff is all you need to know. Perhaps now, we can debate something relevant?

 

[N2264J]

Ingrate

As usual, you distort the truth. "We" are not the problem. You are the problem...Go back and talk to the Delta MEC about the common issues between our groups. I think both should publicly denounce the RJDC AND its supporters.

--a concerned regional pilot

ASA and Comair pilots didn't pick this fight.

As a matter of fact, I would go so far as to say that all pilots hired at ASA and Comair in the last two years have a job there because the RJDC filed a lawsuit that has, thus far, prevented the DMEC from claiming eminent domain on those cockpit seats.

 

[jarhead]

ScopeCMRandASA

Yes, I would agree with you that my profile is not all that "impressive". I will state at the onset though, that I was, and am not trying to impress anyone with my meager flying credentials. The very few hours I have are purely recreational VFR stuff, and I do not have a commercial license, nor have I ever aspired to get one. That said, I will add to my meager profile, an item that is not shown, as it was inadvertently left off. My date of birth. I am 63 years old, and will not try to "hide" who I am.

With that disclosure behind me, I will again state, that even though no one should be "impressed" with my profile, I do not try to hide who I am with "XXX" in every field. You flippantly say it's because you "don't have too" That, to me, is a cop out, and just confirms to me that you really have no legitimate standing for the positions you take, and are afraid to show your colors. Of course you could "lie" and make stuff up and I would have no way of disputing your profile, other than perhaps a faux paux in some future or past posting that might belie what you state.

I will tell you, that I am far closer to what is going on with the CMR pilot group, the RJDC. and the non ending dog fight amongst mainline and regional groups than you could possibly imagine. I see your B.S. for exactly what it is, and I will not "debate" you, as either you do not have a full grasp of the issues, or you chose to ignore the true issues of "concerned regional pilot" you claim to be.

I can think of nothing more adolescent than your infantile comments about the "size of someone's johnson" I left that type of debate in the high school locker room. Grow up, for cryin' out loud.

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

ScopeCMRandASA

Yes, I would agree with you that my profile is not all that "impressive". I will state at the onset though, that I was, and am not trying to impress anyone with my meager flying credentials. The very few hours I have are purely recreational VFR stuff, and I do not have a commercial license, nor have I ever aspired to get one. That said, I will add to my meager profile, an item that is not shown, as it was inadvertently left off. My date of birth. I am 63 years old, and will not try to "hide" who I am.

With that disclosure behind me, I will again state, that even though no one should be "impressed" with my profile, I do not try to hide who I am with "XXX" in every field. You flippantly say it's because you "don't have too" That, to me, is a cop out, and just confirms to me that you really have no legitimate standing for the positions you take, and are afraid to show your colors. Of course you could "lie" and make stuff up and I would have no way of disputing your profile, other than perhaps a faux paux in some future or past posting that might belie what you state.

I will tell you, that I am far closer to what is going on with the CMR pilot group, the RJDC. and the non ending dog fight amongst mainline and regional groups than you could possibly imagine. I see your B.S. for exactly what it is, and I will not "debate" you, as either you do not have a full grasp of the issues, or you chose to ignore the true issues of "concerned regional pilot" you claim to be.

I can think of nothing more adolescent than your infantile comments about the "size of someone's johnson" I left that type of debate in the high school locker room. Grow up, for cryin' out loud.

Is this a joke? You, sir, provide concrete proof of the reason for the age 60 rule. If you would care to actually debate the topics at hand, I would be glad to. You do not have to be 63 to "grasp the issues", or not "be wet behind the ears", or any other catch phrase you and Surplus come up with in order to divert the attention away from the fact that you have no argument. Perhaps you can enlighten me on just what my lack of grasping the issues is. Are you referring to the RJDCs claim about the lack of representation? I have read it all, I have heard it all from the hroses' mouths, or I should say the horses'asses mouths.

My profile, you are correct, I could lie and type anything in there, as you did. Although I assure you that I am certainly not a wet behind the ears kid, it really doesn't matter who I am, it is what I am saying. I am quite well informed of the issues, I do not agree with the stance, and I have every right to voice it. It's funny how you senior types stick together. You complain about not having a voice, and then try to do the same to others. You say the Comair pilot has no say, and then stomp on the opposing point of view. What you really enjoy is somebody stroking your fragile egos. Well, in the words of Surplus, I will bend over for no one. I will stand tall and proud as a Comair pilot. I will be treated as an equal or I will not play the game at all. I'll show you. Zip.......

I noticed that you failed to mention your name, address, and phone number in your post. You ARE hiding if you don't. Chicken.

Can we get back to the debate now? Or do you want to throw some more all knowing, all encompassing, all offensive, senior BS out here and embarass yourself some more.

From 2264J:

ASA and Comair didn't pick this fight.

I beg to differ. It was them who threw the PID without any notification to Delta. Not required of course, but against better judgement.

As a matter of fact, I would go so far as to say that all pilots hired at ASA and Comair in the last two years have a job there because the RJDC filed a lawsuit that has, thus far, prevented the DMEC from claiming eminent domain on those cockpit seats.

What makes you think that? You think the Delta pilots were going to go after the RJs? Why would they do that? How many of their furloughees have gone to ASA? 10 maybe?

Or maybe they were going to go after the 70 seaters. Remote possibility at best, IMO. IMO again that was just a urban myth perpetuated by the Comair and ASA MECs. Hmm, that sounded like Surplus talking there for a second. The fact is that Delta is not an entry level job. Comair and ASA are. Look at the pay scales. Look at what we fly for, yes that includes me, and we expect to get respect? A laughable statement at best. Let's just say that they had gotten the 70 seaters, which of course they would not becuase Delta had much cheaper pilots to fly them for them legally. Would our pilots have been furloughed? No is the answer. 50 seaters are still coming and will come. Our growth would have slowed ever so slightly, but nonetheless would have been there.

Let me ask you, what claim have we laid to any flying ourselves? Let me guess, we can't because we don't bargain with our "true" employer. Wrong. What fragmentation protection did we have when we were purchased requiring us to be merged with Delta? answer:NONE. Do we have any flying in our contract now which could be "farmed" out in any way, shape, or form? Answer: YES. Truth, we do not have the answers. We are no smarter than the Delta MEC, and it boils down to who has the much, much, much, much, much better contract. All I'm saying is that we lose this RJDC thing, better yet, put it on the back burner. We have not exhausted all possibilities, we have only exhausted those which were solely on our terms, and left the Delta pilots no choice but to say pound sand. It doesn't need to be this hard, and we will lose in the end otherwise.

--a concerned regional pilot