Negotiations & The Cost of "Heck No!"

[bvt1151]

ScopeCMRandASA,

You sound like someone who wasn't around Comair for the 89 days in 2001.

 

[46Driver]

Re: Re: ScopeCMRand ASA

BTW, I forgot to answer your other question. I don't have a "profile" listed because I don't have to. In all fairness, yours isn't all that impressive to me. My signoff is all you need to know. Perhaps now, we can debate something relevant?

The screen name of "jarhead" is impressive enough for me. At least he has served his country. Regardless of the argument, closing ranks with my brother Marines.

 

[FDJ2]

Re: Re: Re: ScopeCMRand ASA

The screen name of "jarhead" is impressive enough for me. At least he has served his country.

Maybe he was a Marine maybe he wasn't. I don't think flightinfo requires a notarized copy of a DD214 for someone to claim they served their country. The bottomline is we can all claim anything we want in our profiles. Scope has it right, debate your point of view, stick to the argument at hand and don't get all wrapped up in what someone claims he has in his profile, because it isn't relevant.

 

[46Driver]

They can argue all the want. But when Scope starts insulting one Marine, then he insults us all. And I'll take jarhead at his word that he served in the Corps until he says - or somebody proves - otherwise.

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

ScopeCMRandASA,

You sound like someone who wasn't around Comair for the 89 days in 2001.

You're wrong. You know what, many people out there have struck and not had a job to show for it afterwords. Somebody else always has it worse than you. I believed in what we did, I struck, it's over. Get over it. It does not entitle you to a free ride in this world. You types are no better than the Delta pilots I read about over on the national boards who keep posting how their strike benefits kept us alive during the strike.

We struck, the world must stand in awe of us, so what if we eventually succumbed. But that is for another thread.

As for our Marines, I appreciate your service, and I am slightly envious at the thought of flying a helicopter, but the same argument stands. Let somebody else pat you on the back instead of pointing out your service at every given opportunity.

I am still waiting for relevant debate, anyone?

--a concerned regional pilot

 

[General Lee]

Fins,

The Dalpa MEC members I have talked to directly have said things opposite of your post:

"Amazingly the same junior pilots that are the most rabid supporters of the ALPA spin are the same ones who could get sailed down the river while the senior guys enjoy the preservation of their pay rates. 62% above the industry average for the aircraft type is nothing to be scoffed at and they intend to keep as much of it as is possible at the expense of anyone who has to be sacrificed, including their own junior pilots."

They told me that they may increase productivity when the last furlough has returned. Sure, some senior pilots may wish to hold on to their large salaries and not let go, but Dalpa would take a beating for sacrificing their young. They are still fighting for the 250 furloughs who are coming back by Dec 1st----trying to get back pay for them. To agree to let them go after winning this fight would look very very bad for ALPA and Dalpa---and that is obvious.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Wacopilot]

scopeCMRandASA,

Hey man, I have been reading all of your post and I have a question for you......How come you are so anti-CMR? Why are you against a better life at CMR? Do you owe Delta anything??? You sound like a mis-informed Delta pilot who thinks RJDC is against the DALPA.....I thought they were against ALPA National and the misrepresentation of the CMR/ASA pilots in negotiations???? Please, correct me if I am wrong...... Just chill a little, you are making me embarrassed as a fellow CMR pilot. You sound like you failed a checkride and you got mad....or wait, did you come to CMR thinking there would be a flow-thru???? Poor thing, you sound so sad.


- a not-so-concerned Regional pilot who believed in his pilot leadership

 

[bvt1151]

You types are no better than the Delta pilots I read about over on the national boards who keep posting how their strike benefits kept us alive during the strike.

You mean like these types?

Originally posted by ScopeCMRandASA on August 20th, 2003. Thread: United to "Squash ACA like a bug!"
I walked the line with Comair pilots. I contributed to their fund outside of the assessment.

From another of your famous posts:

Originally posted by ScopeCMRandASA on September 20th, 2003. Thread: Time for ALPA to split?
I get the lecture all of the time in the cockpit. I get the subtle little threats all of the time from those wishing I would just fall in the RJDC line.

If you really had flown with the senior pilots, you would know that this doesn't happen. I'm not "in line" with the RJDC, and have actually had several arguments with Mr. Ford himself, but never have there been threats to fall in line. There isn't one Comair pilot that could honestly say what you said, but I'll be willing to bet there's a Delta pilot who would be low enough to charade as a Comair pilot in an attempt to discredit who doesn't agree with him who would say that.

I think Wacopilot has the same suspicions Les Paul and I do:

Originally posted by Les Paul on September 20th, 2003. Thread: Time for ALPA to split?Yep... their is no doubt who this poster is. Anyone recogize those words? They've been used many times before by this person, only under his other screen name FlyDeltasJets..

How you been FlyDeltasJets? Why don't you just come out and admit that you've created a new "wholly owned" forum name, because you thought pretending to be a Comair or ASA pilot, you would really lend creedence to your rants.

Oh wait, quick.. log off, then back on under FlyDeltasJets to swear and prove its not you. That will really show me.

I don't care about what your saying, its the hiding behind a "concerned regional pilot" title that I find pretty lame.

Come on... you're not fooling anyone FDJ. In fact it really shows what a coward you are.

You have your opions, fine. But we (the real Comair pilots) will not accept an impostor who tries to post inflammatory posts in our name.

 

[whiskytangofoxt]

How long

How long till managment keeps going to the lowest bidder, till one gets balled up?

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

scopeCMRandASA,

Hey man, I have been reading all of your post and I have a question for you......How come you are so anti-CMR? Why are you against a better life at CMR? Do you owe Delta anything??? You sound like a mis-informed Delta pilot who thinks RJDC is against the DALPA.....I thought they were against ALPA National and the misrepresentation of the CMR/ASA pilots in negotiations???? Please, correct me if I am wrong...... Just chill a little, you are making me embarrassed as a fellow CMR pilot. You sound like you failed a checkride and you got mad....or wait, did you come to CMR thinking there would be a flow-thru???? Poor thing, you sound so sad.


- a not-so-concerned Regional pilot who believed in his pilot leadership

You know what? You are right. I do sound negative against CMR , and it isn't intentional. I am all for a better life at Comair, and was a staunch supporter of the strike.

And from my posts, it also appears as if the RJDC lawsuit is against the Delta MEC. It is and it isn't. Legally it is against ALPA, but who are we kidding here. Who would probably suffer the consequences of the lawsuit. I mean, in that same line of reasoning, why do you read so much from Surplus and friends about the Delta MEC needing to get over themselves, the door is open when the Delta MEC wants to work with, yadda, yadda, yadda. Are they not misinformed as well. Should we be talking about ALPA doing this and that. Word usage has never been my strong suit.

I should be clear, I think Comair is a top notch airline with mostly dedicated professionals. My issue is primarily with the more senior contingent holding MY union hostage for a job that I want that they didn't, wouldn't, couldn't have.

--a concerned regional pilot

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

from bvt

If you really had flown with the senior pilots, you would know that this doesn't happen. I'm not "in line" with the RJDC, and have actually had several arguments with Mr. Ford himself, but never have there been threats to fall in line. There isn't one Comair pilot that could honestly say what you said, but I'll be willing to bet there's a Delta pilot who would be low enough to charade as a Comair pilot in an attempt to discredit who doesn't agree with him who would say that.

Consider yourself lucky. I too have talked with Mr. F, and although he is in the same boat with the types I described, I have indeed received the oh so subtle threats, and anonymous not so subtle threats, and can name a few others who have as well.

But go ahead and keep on your hope that I am a Delta pilot. In fact, everybody hope, maybe it will come true. Unfortunately, you'll have to do better than a "their" vs "the" to get me there.


--a concerned regional pilot

 

[bvt1151]

Please explain your previous remarks then:

Originally posted by ScopeCMRandASA
You types are no better than the Delta pilots I read about over on the national boards who keep posting how their strike benefits kept us alive during the strike.

However you must have forgotten that you had earlier said:

Originally posted by ScopeCMRandASA on August 20th, 2003 Thread: United to "Squash ACA like a bug!"
I walked the line with Comair pilots. I contributed to their fund outside of the assessment.

More posters than I have found you suspicious, (i.e. Les Paul, boeingman) and in doing some research I've found that your registration conveniently coincides with a large lull in FlyDeltasJets' posts. In fact, from August 19th (ScopeCMRandASA registered on August 20th) FlyDeltasJets doesn't post again until September 4th, the very day somebody first confronts you about your identity.

You talk much about the specifics of the Delta pilot's contract, as did FlyDeltasJets, but never mention specifics of the Comair contract. In fact, you don't mention anything specific about Comair, and describe our senior pilots as acting much as they would in a confrontation with a Delta pilot, not with a Comair pilot.

Do I have too much time on my hands? I could only wish, but what I do not have time for is somebody posting incognito specifically to create the illusion of dissent within the Comair ranks. I don't think the author of the Benedict Arnold remark really knew how accurate he was.

Help us out...

Who replaced Lynn in the Chief pilot's office?

What happens when you push the automatic opener button on the outside doors to operations?

What happens when you exit the doors at Terminal 1 to catch the bus to the parking lot?

We're timing....

 

[Wacopilot]

bvt1151, good call.......never thought of this fun...

I have some q's, where does the FO's copy of the weight & balance go after it is completed? What color is it?
What is the new callout after we land that MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL?

Here is an easy one, what is our company computer system called?

 

[bvt1151]

I'll even give him a freebie

Question:
What happens when you exit the doors at Terminal 1 to catch the bus to the parking lot?

Answer:
It leaves

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Please explain your previous remarks then:



However you must have forgotten that you had earlier said:



More posters than I have found you suspicious, (i.e. Les Paul, boeingman) and in doing some research I've found that your registration conveniently coincides with a large lull in FlyDeltasJets' posts. In fact, from August 19th (ScopeCMRandASA registered on August 20th) FlyDeltasJets doesn't post again until September 4th, the very day somebody first confronts you about your identity.

Do a search b. I explained why I was fed up with posting on this board. Look in the General section. This was not a "lull," it was a conscious effort to stay off these boards and do something a bit more productive.

Believe it or not.

 

[General Lee]

You guys sound like a bunch of thugs. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. ScopeCMRand ASA has his, and you guys don't like it--so you bash him. That is exactly what your senior pilots do to the junior ones, work with intimidation. Ridiculous.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Hovernut]

Here is an easy one, what is our company computer system called?

Here's another freebie: POS! Especially those in the wings with the dam stupid broke/snagged printers! How 'bout a weather computer with something other than a 8086 driving it!! And while I'm on this rant, how 'bout access to TravelNet from our (insert unnammed company computer system here ) accounts? And the double login???

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

You guys sound like a bunch of thugs. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. ScopeCMRand ASA has his, and you guys don't like it--so you bash him. That is exactly what your senior pilots do to the junior ones, work with intimidation. Ridiculous.

Bye Bye--General Lee

You got it, General. Now I know why FDJ left, and why I should have just stayed as a lurker. Welcome to my daily life. Guys, I am done with the thread creep, your identity crisis. I will say that a copy of every contract is online, my signoff is valid, and I will post again when and if somebody wants to actually debate the true issues. Remember what I have posted. My prediction is that it will come back to haunt you. Take a look in a search on my posts, specifically about interview requirements at SWA. They scoffed there as well.
So much for the exchange of ideas.

--a concerned regional pilot

 

[Treme]

Little bit of thread-creep there. Let's try and wrangle this one away from the RJDC for a moment.

Here were the original 7 questions:

If/When management comes to you and asks for concessions and you say, Not only NO but HECK no! what do you believe their response will be?

1. How will their response impact you and your career?

2. How will it impact the junior pilots on their seniority list?

3. How will their response impact the unity of your pilot group and therefore your stregnth and resolve as a group? (if junior pilots suddenly face furlough)

4. What will your MEC do to foster unity throughout the pilot group?

5. What will your MEC do to prevent, minimize, or mitigate potential furloughs?

6. Does your MEC have a plan that goes beyond "Heck No" and are they prepared to deal with the reality that management will take hostages? Do they have a plan?

7. or am I full of it... will management quietly go home and not come back until the contract is up?

 

[bvt1151]

Apologies Treme, never meant to hijack the thread. We just wanted to make sure that its known that ScopeCMRandASA doesn't speak as a Comair pilot, regardless of his tantrums.

Now, on with the thread!

My answers to your questions...
1. How will their response impact you and your career?

1. Nobody in management is willing to say, or perhaps they don't know because all the real decisions come from Atlanta mgmt has approached us with nothing to offer but "good faith" (whatever that is) that concessions will bring us growth. When a negotiating team approaches the table with nothing to offer, it usually means there will be negative consequences if no agreement is reached.

2. How will it impact the junior pilots on their seniority list?

2. As a jr. pilot, a pay cut for growth would actually lead to an ultimate pay increase. That being said, no growth has been promised...I still vote no.

3. How will their response impact the unity of your pilot group and therefore your stregnth and resolve as a group? (if junior pilots suddenly face furlough)

3. CMR pilots are well known for their solidarity, I'm not sure if there will be an issue between jr. and sr. pilots. However it could be considered that the sole purpose of mgmt's offer was to create that dissent. CMR's negotiating team is very good at what they do, and I wouldn't put it past them.

4. What will your MEC do to foster unity throughout the pilot group?

4. dunno.

5. What will your MEC do to prevent, minimize, or mitigate potential furloughs?

5. I don't think that will be a problem. The reason I say that is that is our major complaint of the Delta pilots. They would rather sacrifice furloughs than give money back. I'm not presenting that as fact, however it is the common feeling at CMR and I think the MEC will go to large measure to prevent that from happening. Then again I may be wrong.

6. Does your MEC have a plan that goes beyond "Heck No" and are they prepared to deal with the reality that management will take hostages? Do they have a plan?

6. My experience would say that they have a plan, however, after talking with some of the reps in the lounge, I walked away largely disappointed and with the feeling that they think nothing will happen if they just say no. I hope that is not the case.

7. or am I full of it... will management quietly go home and not come back until the contract is up?

7. I don't think CMR management initiated the discussions. CMR is making money hand-over-fist. So is ASA, but Delta is not. The CMR mgmt is smart enough to know not to approach us with such an insult unless the order came down from Atlanta. Does DAL mgmt want to be able to return to the DAL pilots and say "we tried to get the Comair pilot's on board, but they scoffed. Your beef is with them"? Splitting the pilot groups always works in mgmt's favor. Remember, Comair is offering something that can only come from Atlanta, growth. We say yes, and they get more money and can say "well Atlanta ultimately makes that decision." WIN. We say no and growth goes to the lowest bidder (We all know who that is)...pilot groups are even more divided. WIN. Either way mgmt wins.

Management is not throwing a hail-mary; they have a plan. I'm disappointed with the union reps in ops because they think we are in a win-win situation when really we are not. Quite the contrary, we are in a lose-lose situation. I really hope they are doing, and thinking something they're not telling us, because not doing anything only lets the events already set in motion play out.