Negotiations & The Cost of "Heck No!"

[efiscompmon]

Wacky stuff.

Seems to me if you are not "operationally integrated" enough to be one-listed or stapled, you shouldn't have to prop up DAL's financial position if CMR has all its ducks in a row.

Your profitability isn't enough to offset the losses of another division? So you have to pay to continue to allow B777 CAs to retire with "dignity"?

Sorry, I don't feel that any of the groups at the DL empire should be conceding squat. Why the CMR folks should (unless to affect the ASA negotiations?) is a might perplexing.

Forgive an outsider for his $0.02.

 

[surplus1]

Just out of curiosity, what are they asking for?

And what are you asking in return? Any idea?

At this point the line pilots have not been informed of exactly what the Company is asking for now what we will ask in return, assuming we talk at all. Lots of rumors but nothing concrete. Stay tuned.

Originally posted by efiscompmon Your profitability isn't enough to offset the losses of another division? So you have to pay to continue to allow B777 CAs to retire with "dignity"?

But of course. Have you no respect for your "elders"? Remember, according to them, they raised us up from naught and gave us everything that we have and then adopted us (by force) for our own good. It is only natural now that if their mortgage is in default, we should pay it. After all, we are members of the "family" (when they need us or want from us). Never mind that we are only the proverbial red-headed bastards at other times.

Sorry, I don't feel that any of the groups at the DL empire should be conceding squat. Why the CMR folks should (unless to affect the ASA negotiations?) is a might perplexing.

More than perplexing my friend, downright unreasonable and unjustified. Hopefully, we will be extremely careful at CMR NOT to negatively affect the ASA negotiations. They stood by us and we should stand by them. JMO.

 

[captainv]

>Just out of curiosity, what are they asking for?

>And what are you asking in return? Any idea?

$8 million per year in wage concessions and changes in work rules. contract would be extended to 07, i think. company would propose pay scale for 30-39 seat aircraft.

obviously the company thinks we might get ACA's DoJets, so that's 32 new airplanes. i'm not up on the particulars, but this is if ACA goes out on its own, they also have the option of keeping them.

supposedly there's 50 cl-65 options floating around out there for DCI. our management has presented the "gateway to growth" plan as a way to reduce costs so that we're more competitive with DCI contract carriers. no one believes that our management has the power to influence whether or not we actually take delivery of any additional aircraft.

ideas i've heard for what we want include an ASA/Comair merger and assurances that ASA/Comair get all future DCI growth. the DCi contract carriers would keep what they have currently.

the nice part about this is we can negotiate with management, but we're free to walk away at any time and wait for our contract to come up in 05.

 

[DAL737FO]

Some of you guys are amazing. This has nothing to do with mainline vs DCI. Management came to us and they were unreasonable so it has ended for now. So now they want to try to get some extra money some where else. Listen to them and if you don't like what you hear then have your MEC walk away. You are not in contract negotiations so you are not obligated to do squat. Managements bonuses are now tied not to profits but to how much they can cut costs. You bet your bottom dollar they are going to try and squeeze every nickel out of everyone.

 

[Treme]

CaptainV said, "the nice part about this is we can negotiate with management, but we're free to walk away at any time and wait for our contract to come up in 05."

The point of my question was: At what cost?

 

[~~~^~~~]

This has nothing to do with mainline vs DCI. Management came to us and they were unreasonable so it has ended for now. So now they want to try to get some extra money some where else.

You bet your bottom dollar they are going to try and squeeze every nickel out of everyone.

Wow, how the DAL MEC can spin the truth.

Truth - Delta asked mainline pilots for concessions. DALPA responded that they would take cuts, but only if other employees on the property took similar cuts. Delta responded that other employees on the property already earn industry standard wages, so it did not make sense to cut their pay. The Delta pilots, in comparison, get paid 62% more than the industry average and 47% more than the next most highly paid pilots on planet Earth.

The Delta MEC stuck to its "We only give if they give first" mantra and now Delta is going around to the other employee groups to try to get cuts to appease the DALPA MEC demand that everyone else take cuts.

Strategy - It is political within ALPA. The mainline carrier believes that cuts at Comair and ASA could possibly offset the company's needs for cuts at mainline. After all, if the Delta MEC is the last to negotiate concessions, hopefully Delta management will have the Company turned around by then and the economy will be better.

So again, it is mainline ALPA attacking Connection pilots. The Delta MEC does not intend us harm, but if harming us promotes their agenda they will not hold back.

Again, I think it is a flawed strategy. Making ASA and Comair cheaper makes Connection a more attractive place to put airplanes and by Contract 96 scope, the 100 seat jets would be going to Connection. With a possible result of the RJDC lawsuit being a return to C96 scope, the Delta MEC is playing a risky strategy, perhaps in the belief that their immense negotiating captial could be used to avoid playing by the rules if they get caught again with their hand in the cookie jar.

Amazingly the same junior pilots that are the most rabid supporters of the ALPA spin are the same ones who could get sailed down the river while the senior guys enjoy the preservation of their pay rates. 62% above the industry average for the aircraft type is nothing to be scoffed at and they intend to keep as much of it as is possible at the expense of anyone who has to be sacrificed, including their own junior pilots.

 

[DAL737FO]

Amazingly the same junior pilots that are the most rabid supporters of the ALPA spin are the same ones who could get sailed down the river while the senior guys enjoy the preservation of their pay rates.

So would you catagorize me as a rabid supporter of ALPA? You've got to be kidding me. I've been out on furlough for almost a year and a half. I would like nothing more than for the union to tell manangement that if we took a (insert number here) pay cut then the furloughee's get to come back. Well it doesn't work that way.

Delta managment came to the pilot group for concessions and offered to give nothing in return. (a contract extension was the main concern with the MEC) So negotiations broke off. Now they are coming to you guys. If you don't like what is said then walk away, but don't blame it on the big bad mainline guys. Is that your freaking crutch for everything.

I keep hearing how our contract is limiting your career, well isn't it funny how the mainline seniority list has lost 26% of it's pilots since 911. How much has your list grown? I'm a big boy and we negotiated those block hour percentages so I don't blame anyone but ourselves, however somehow I'm still inhibiting your career.

Good luck with your lawsuit

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

Wow, how the DAL MEC can spin the truth.

Truth - Delta asked mainline pilots for concessions. DALPA responded that they would take cuts, but only if other employees on the property took similar cuts. Delta responded that other employees on the property already earn industry standard wages, so it did not make sense to cut their pay. The Delta pilots, in comparison, get paid 62% more than the industry average and 47% more than the next most highly paid pilots on planet Earth.

The Delta MEC stuck to its "We only give if they give first" mantra and now Delta is going around to the other employee groups to try to get cuts to appease the DALPA MEC demand that everyone else take cuts.

Strategy - It is political within ALPA. The mainline carrier believes that cuts at Comair and ASA could possibly offset the company's needs for cuts at mainline. After all, if the Delta MEC is the last to negotiate concessions, hopefully Delta management will have the Company turned around by then and the economy will be better.

So again, it is mainline ALPA attacking Connection pilots. The Delta MEC does not intend us harm, but if harming us promotes their agenda they will not hold back.

Again, I think it is a flawed strategy. Making ASA and Comair cheaper makes Connection a more attractive place to put airplanes and by Contract 96 scope, the 100 seat jets would be going to Connection. With a possible result of the RJDC lawsuit being a return to C96 scope, the Delta MEC is playing a risky strategy, perhaps in the belief that their immense negotiating captial could be used to avoid playing by the rules if they get caught again with their hand in the cookie jar.

Amazingly the same junior pilots that are the most rabid supporters of the ALPA spin are the same ones who could get sailed down the river while the senior guys enjoy the preservation of their pay rates. 62% above the industry average for the aircraft type is nothing to be scoffed at and they intend to keep as much of it as is possible at the expense of anyone who has to be sacrificed, including their own junior pilots.

C'mon fins, you seem like the most levelheaded among our Comair ASA brothers on the board. Get off of the RJDc site for one second and look at some other stuff. I dug this out of the archives. It is an excerpt of the letter Will Buergy put out to the pilots when negotiations broke down:

"It is easy to misrepresent ALPA’s assertion that all stakeholders must participate in the financial recovery of our airline. We have made it clear to management in these discussions that the problem cannot and will not be solved solely by the Delta pilots; we can only do our part. All of the financially restructured airlines have reduced their costs across the board including management, employees, creditors, leasing companies, government agencies, aircraft suppliers, banks, and other related businesses—no airline has restructured by only addressing pilot costs."

Don't you think that Comair and ASA pilots would be included in "pilot costs"? Have you ever talked to Will Buergy? I have. Met him on a flight once. They completely understand exactly what you typed in your post, and really have no desire to see the life of a Comair/ASA f/o to be degraded further. They were quite interested in an industry leading flow, but did not receive cooperation, just dictation.

Of course, they now have a new MEC chairman, so we will see what he has to say.

--a concerned regional pilot

 

[surplus1]

--a concerned regional pilot

As a "concerned regional pilot", why don't you tell us what YOU think the Comair pilots should do?

You seem to think and have stated that "we are the problem". What would YOU have "us" (CMR or ASA or CMR/ASA) do to solve the problem(s)?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Bill Buergey's spin is a smoke screen. He makes it sound like we will all do our part together, when in reality the Delta MEC has demanded that other employees take cuts BEFORE the Delta MEC will negotiate. It is not a bad strategy, not a kind strategy, but effective at protecting the pay of Delta's senior pilots. No, I have not met the gentleman, but I was sitting about 10 feet away from the new Vice Chair when he admitted the Delta MEC has been lying about the senior management at Delta and their efforts to restructure the airline. He hid behind the lies advising "When we said that, we were just reflecting the mood of our pilot group." So lets get this straight, the MEC distorts the truth, then when caught, blames it on their pilots !?!~~~

The Company's position makes sense. Other employee groups earn the industry average for their work. If we cut their pay to below the industry average it is unfair, they will be less productive and seek work else where. Richard Branson just hired away one of Delta's managers. Fred Reid came from Luthansa. There is an international job market for some of these positions.

So I agree with all of you, the Delta pilots did not vote to destroy Comair and ASA. But at the same time their MEC has no reason to protect us and no obligation to do so. When ALPA's economists reported there is a finite amount of money and this is it, the Delta MEC strategy was to offset pilot cuts with cuts from other employees. So no they did not intend to harm us, but their actions do harm us none the less.

Regardless of whether the harm is intentional, this sort of conflicted ALPA bargaining is addressed in the Constitution and Bylaws of our Union and ALPA National would have to step in, if ALPA would follow their own darn rules.

Perhaps this is why Duane Woerth is coming to explain to the Comair pilots why taking a cut is good for them. In advance of his arrival ALPA has asked the Company to stop the RJDC from informing pilots on this issue.

 

[Treme]

Perhaps this is why Duane Woerth is coming to explain to the Comair pilots why taking a cut is good for them. In advance of his arrival ALPA has asked the Company to stop the RJDC from informing pilots on this issue.????

What exactly IS Woerth-less coming to a run-of-the-mill union meeting at Comair for???

During the most dire of times at my previous employer he never "graced" us with his presence.

Something's fishy.

 

[George Jetson]

What exactly IS Woerth-less coming to a run-of-the-mill union meeting at Comair for???

During the most dire of times at my previous employer he

Duane Woerth will be at our Continental/Continental Express Contract '02 Amendable Date Rally on Wednesday in Houston. This is the second time that I have seen him at one of our functions in the past 2 years.

GJ

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

As a "concerned regional pilot", why don't you tell us what YOU think the Comair pilots should do?

You seem to think and have stated that "we are the problem". What would YOU have "us" (CMR or ASA or CMR/ASA) do to solve the problem(s)?

As usual, you distort the truth. "We" are not the problem. You are the problem. Our senior pilots are the problem, at least most of them. While tripping over yourselves to prove how big their johnson is, the senior pilots at Comair and ASA have alienated the Delta pilots. It is they who steer this ship. With a little cooperation, instead of antagonism, we might have found some common ground in our negotiations. This is exactly what I think the Comair and ASA pilots should collectively do. Go back and talk to the Delta MEC about the common issues between our groups. I think both should publicly denounce the RJDC AND its supporters. Neither will happen. We both know why.

Do not forget, it was the Delta pilots who were willing to bargain in their negotiations, using their bargaining power, to help out our cause. Until "we" got greedy. That's when they said go take a hike. My suggestion is that the powers that be drop their attitude and ask the Delta MEC if there is opportunity there or not.


--a concerned regional pilot

 

[surplus1]

As usual, you distort the truth. "We" are not the problem. You are the problem. Our senior pilots are the problem, at least most of them. While tripping over yourselves to prove how big their johnson is, the senior pilots at Comair and ASA have alienated the Delta pilots. It is they who steer this ship. With a little cooperation, instead of antagonism, we might have found some common ground in our negotiations. This is exactly what I think the Comair and ASA pilots should collectively do. Go back and talk to the Delta MEC about the common issues between our groups. I think both should publicly denounce the RJDC AND its supporters. Neither will happen. We both know why.

Congratulations on having excluded yourself from the "we" in the group to which you allegedly belong. Based on your commentary, your recommendation brings three things to mind: 1) Your knowledge of the history of events at Comair (if that is where you work) is extremely limited, 2) If you are who you claim to be (a concerned regional pilot) you might also be a distant relative of Benedict Arnold, 3) Your "handle" would be more fitting were it Lord Chamberlain in lieu of the one you have chosen.

Finally, I got pretty much what I expected, not much. "Out of the mouths of babes ..."

For the record we of Comair have always welcomed and solicited dialogue with the DMEC. There is however substantial difference between dialogue and repetitive listening to sermons from the Mount. When they would like to talk with us and not to us, the door will always be open.

Do not forget, it was the Delta pilots who were willing to bargain in their negotiations, using their bargaining power, to help out our cause. Until "we" got greedy. That's when they said go take a hike. My suggestion is that the powers that be drop their attitude and ask the Delta MEC if there is opportunity there or not.

To forget something presumes that you once new it. Speaking of distortions of the truth, you win the blue ribbon with the above. There is nothing in the first three sentences of the above paragraph that even remotely resembles historical reality and therefore, nothing for me to remember. I don't know where you get your "information" but I recommend a more credible source. You seem to know a great deal about the DMEC and its propaganda, but very little of actual events. If you are indeed a "concerned regional pilot" you might devote some time to learning more about the airline you imply you work for and the record of our relationship with the leaders of the Delta group. When did you join "the regional ranks", yesterday?

I'm sorry you despise the senior pilots as much as you say you do. Perhaps if you held less rancor for us we could learn more from your pearls of wisdom and benefit from your experience. If you do not already work for Delta, when you get there I hope you will not hold their senior pilots with the same lack of regard. If you do, they are likely to think of you in the same way that I do.

I agree that there is need for an attitude adjustment, yours. Thinking back to when I was a youngster in my early 20's I recall that my father was a total idiot who knew little of anything. By the time I was 30 he had become the smartest man I'd ever met. It was absolutely amazing how much he had learned in so short a time.

I wish you good luck for the Lord knows you're going to need it.

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

He gets a little testy when someone calls him on his BS doesn't he? It would be funny if it weren't so pathetic. More evidence to support my claim. Thanks Surplus. Is it any wonder that the Delta pilots want nothing to do with us? We have made our own bed by letting these jackals run amok.

--a concerned regional pilot

 

[jarhead]

ScopeCMRand ASA

Sorry Scope, it is you who are the pathectic one. Surplus is right on the mark with you. Benedict Arnold was the name I also thought of after reading your posts. I suspect you are VERY young, but you hide behind non descript "xxx" answers in your 'profile'. Are you afraid that people will see just how wet behind the ears you really are?

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

Re: ScopeCMRand ASA

Sorry Scope, it is you who are the pathectic one. Surplus is right on the mark with you. Benedict Arnold was the name I also thought of after reading your posts. I suspect you are VERY young, but you hide behind non descript "xxx" answers in your 'profile'. Are you afraid that people will see just how wet behind the ears you really are?

A fair question. You are calling me Benedict Arnold for wanting to work with the Delta pilots rather than against them? If this what you are saying, then I guess you are right. I will go one step further in saying that those who consider me a B.A. really want no harmony with the Delta pilots, but prefer to dictate instead their idea of a "cohesive" group on their terms. AKA the RJDC. Like it or not, ALPA cannot/will not be controlled by our small group of pilots. Those who so candidly state that I am kissing Delta ass, admittedly I have many Delta pilot friends, are the ones who really have no desire to see such harmony within the ranks, but only desire to see their agenda furthered.

You and your buddy Surplus can throw your names around and your "experience". You can profess to know it all. I find it funny, however, that the senior pilots which Surplus so despises for protecting their cushy pensions and high paying 777s over at Delta represent the exact same mindset over here at Comair with his mindset. They are both more alike than Surplus wants to admit. The difference? They will retire with 300K a year, 180K annual retirement pay, full medical, flying to exotic destinations 10-12 days a month, 6 weeks of vacation, etc, etc, etc. I am a B.A. for wanting that?!? Are you out of your mind? That would make about 90% of the Comair pilots B.A.s.

LMAOAYAS

--a concerned regional pilot

BTW, I forgot to answer your other question. I don't have a "profile" listed because I don't have to. In all fairness, yours isn't all that impressive to me. My signoff is all you need to know. Perhaps now, we can debate something relevant?

 

[N2264J]

Ingrate

As usual, you distort the truth. "We" are not the problem. You are the problem...Go back and talk to the Delta MEC about the common issues between our groups. I think both should publicly denounce the RJDC AND its supporters.

--a concerned regional pilot

ASA and Comair pilots didn't pick this fight.

As a matter of fact, I would go so far as to say that all pilots hired at ASA and Comair in the last two years have a job there because the RJDC filed a lawsuit that has, thus far, prevented the DMEC from claiming eminent domain on those cockpit seats.

 

[jarhead]

ScopeCMRandASA

Yes, I would agree with you that my profile is not all that "impressive". I will state at the onset though, that I was, and am not trying to impress anyone with my meager flying credentials. The very few hours I have are purely recreational VFR stuff, and I do not have a commercial license, nor have I ever aspired to get one. That said, I will add to my meager profile, an item that is not shown, as it was inadvertently left off. My date of birth. I am 63 years old, and will not try to "hide" who I am.

With that disclosure behind me, I will again state, that even though no one should be "impressed" with my profile, I do not try to hide who I am with "XXX" in every field. You flippantly say it's because you "don't have too" That, to me, is a cop out, and just confirms to me that you really have no legitimate standing for the positions you take, and are afraid to show your colors. Of course you could "lie" and make stuff up and I would have no way of disputing your profile, other than perhaps a faux paux in some future or past posting that might belie what you state.

I will tell you, that I am far closer to what is going on with the CMR pilot group, the RJDC. and the non ending dog fight amongst mainline and regional groups than you could possibly imagine. I see your B.S. for exactly what it is, and I will not "debate" you, as either you do not have a full grasp of the issues, or you chose to ignore the true issues of "concerned regional pilot" you claim to be.

I can think of nothing more adolescent than your infantile comments about the "size of someone's johnson" I left that type of debate in the high school locker room. Grow up, for cryin' out loud.

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

ScopeCMRandASA

Yes, I would agree with you that my profile is not all that "impressive". I will state at the onset though, that I was, and am not trying to impress anyone with my meager flying credentials. The very few hours I have are purely recreational VFR stuff, and I do not have a commercial license, nor have I ever aspired to get one. That said, I will add to my meager profile, an item that is not shown, as it was inadvertently left off. My date of birth. I am 63 years old, and will not try to "hide" who I am.

With that disclosure behind me, I will again state, that even though no one should be "impressed" with my profile, I do not try to hide who I am with "XXX" in every field. You flippantly say it's because you "don't have too" That, to me, is a cop out, and just confirms to me that you really have no legitimate standing for the positions you take, and are afraid to show your colors. Of course you could "lie" and make stuff up and I would have no way of disputing your profile, other than perhaps a faux paux in some future or past posting that might belie what you state.

I will tell you, that I am far closer to what is going on with the CMR pilot group, the RJDC. and the non ending dog fight amongst mainline and regional groups than you could possibly imagine. I see your B.S. for exactly what it is, and I will not "debate" you, as either you do not have a full grasp of the issues, or you chose to ignore the true issues of "concerned regional pilot" you claim to be.

I can think of nothing more adolescent than your infantile comments about the "size of someone's johnson" I left that type of debate in the high school locker room. Grow up, for cryin' out loud.

Is this a joke? You, sir, provide concrete proof of the reason for the age 60 rule. If you would care to actually debate the topics at hand, I would be glad to. You do not have to be 63 to "grasp the issues", or not "be wet behind the ears", or any other catch phrase you and Surplus come up with in order to divert the attention away from the fact that you have no argument. Perhaps you can enlighten me on just what my lack of grasping the issues is. Are you referring to the RJDCs claim about the lack of representation? I have read it all, I have heard it all from the hroses' mouths, or I should say the horses'asses mouths.

My profile, you are correct, I could lie and type anything in there, as you did. Although I assure you that I am certainly not a wet behind the ears kid, it really doesn't matter who I am, it is what I am saying. I am quite well informed of the issues, I do not agree with the stance, and I have every right to voice it. It's funny how you senior types stick together. You complain about not having a voice, and then try to do the same to others. You say the Comair pilot has no say, and then stomp on the opposing point of view. What you really enjoy is somebody stroking your fragile egos. Well, in the words of Surplus, I will bend over for no one. I will stand tall and proud as a Comair pilot. I will be treated as an equal or I will not play the game at all. I'll show you. Zip.......

I noticed that you failed to mention your name, address, and phone number in your post. You ARE hiding if you don't. Chicken.

Can we get back to the debate now? Or do you want to throw some more all knowing, all encompassing, all offensive, senior BS out here and embarass yourself some more.

From 2264J:

ASA and Comair didn't pick this fight.

I beg to differ. It was them who threw the PID without any notification to Delta. Not required of course, but against better judgement.

As a matter of fact, I would go so far as to say that all pilots hired at ASA and Comair in the last two years have a job there because the RJDC filed a lawsuit that has, thus far, prevented the DMEC from claiming eminent domain on those cockpit seats.

What makes you think that? You think the Delta pilots were going to go after the RJs? Why would they do that? How many of their furloughees have gone to ASA? 10 maybe?

Or maybe they were going to go after the 70 seaters. Remote possibility at best, IMO. IMO again that was just a urban myth perpetuated by the Comair and ASA MECs. Hmm, that sounded like Surplus talking there for a second. The fact is that Delta is not an entry level job. Comair and ASA are. Look at the pay scales. Look at what we fly for, yes that includes me, and we expect to get respect? A laughable statement at best. Let's just say that they had gotten the 70 seaters, which of course they would not becuase Delta had much cheaper pilots to fly them for them legally. Would our pilots have been furloughed? No is the answer. 50 seaters are still coming and will come. Our growth would have slowed ever so slightly, but nonetheless would have been there.

Let me ask you, what claim have we laid to any flying ourselves? Let me guess, we can't because we don't bargain with our "true" employer. Wrong. What fragmentation protection did we have when we were purchased requiring us to be merged with Delta? answer:NONE. Do we have any flying in our contract now which could be "farmed" out in any way, shape, or form? Answer: YES. Truth, we do not have the answers. We are no smarter than the Delta MEC, and it boils down to who has the much, much, much, much, much better contract. All I'm saying is that we lose this RJDC thing, better yet, put it on the back burner. We have not exhausted all possibilities, we have only exhausted those which were solely on our terms, and left the Delta pilots no choice but to say pound sand. It doesn't need to be this hard, and we will lose in the end otherwise.

--a concerned regional pilot