need help on salary for FO on Legacy

[LegacyDriver]

Yes, yes yes, L. The lower end of the market he "knows" is what the market pays. Hell, I know of a Falcon 20 operator that pays $108k to start. If you know of someone flying a 900 for "a lot less than $100k a year," they shorted themselves.

That's what the position pays. I also know of an operator getting a 7X shortly and they pay their 900 drivers less than $80K a year to start. Sorry guys, but you are living in a dream world.

Again, define "Falcon Market."

I know of a SoCal operator that would hire someone untyped right now, fwiw.

Give them my number then.

I can't comment about reliability, or landings, but do you really think the Embraer is better looking than a Falcon?

No contest. Even the 7X looks like something designed in 1962... But as for the older models... Who uses 43 cockpit windows these days? Seriously. Even Hawker/Beech/Raytheon updated that on their newer year models.

To me, the EMB 135/145 looks like some plastic toy airplane you'd buy at K-Mart on a blue light special. There are absolutely ZERO appealing lines on a Legacy. On the other hand, a Falcon looks sleek, fast, and well paying.

That's what you think. I think the Legacy has beautiful lines. Way better than any Dassault other than the Rafale.

Without a doubt the Legacy is better looking with all the fairings and the winglets esp compared to the ERJ, DA-50, or DA-900. To each their own. Unless it's Russian it's not really ugly if it is a jet any way.

 

[LegacyDriver]

If it should be the one based in the Atlanta area, it is for sale. Might be the reason he wants someone else to pay for the training. Payback would only be there if the job was. If you have only flown a 152 like your profile says I believe that might be a little over your head.

Legacy Driver: Please tell me that you are exploring every option you can to be a demo pilot for the Legacy's. Anyone with that sort of passion for a product should explore that option. (Not intended as a jab)

Thanks 400. No jab taken. You are dead right about that Atlanta EMB. I think that is Lou Sobh's (Sohb?) airplane isn't it? There's also DP up for sale out of Aitken, SC I think it was...

Actually I was a demo pilot (Embraer often chartered my airplane when they didn't have one of their teams available). Helped sell a lot of them back when they were first getting started (and not a jab, but probably 3/4 of our clients moved out of Falcons and Hawkers into the EMB--the feedback I got exclusively positive...including from a G-String crew that just couldn't stomach the idea of moving to a Legacy). I told them what the airplane could do and not do and that it was a good airplane... Nobody ever said I lied to them.

 

[LegacyDriver]

LD,

I'm not defending the market, just saying what it is. I know of no 900ex/Easy pilots working for under 100K - not even close. And yes, I know if non-typed guys hired into Falcons recently at 100k+ as SICs...that honestly the market at semi-quality jobs...and I personally wouldn't shop anything but - no matter what the market is.

I know four that were hired under $80K into 900s (two to the EX two to the EASy). Two are over $90K now, two are not. The Death Star just hired two and I bet they make sub-$70K a year.

And if you don't include San Antonio (#7 US City) and Dallas Metroplex then you are missing "major markets."

While I don't know where you are shopping, Im talking all major metro areas. SoCal, NY, etc...Is it a hard market? I hear it is...but I have not seen or heard of any low-balling by quality operations. I cant claim to hang with the brightest crowd (lol) but Falcon/Gulfstream/Global guys are not doing too bad around me. I have quite a few friends who fly Falcons (50/900/Easy/7X) and their pay ranges from 115K-200K+....80K? C'mon!!

I cant speak for Legacy pilots. There is no Legacys near me, that I know of.

Obviously then you are only looking at the "Corporate" market and not the fractional or charter (where most EMBs reside). That said, the Falcon operators I refer to (Blue Death Globe aside) one is a tech company and one is a charter outfit both in Texas. Throw in another Falcon charter outfit into the mix and I can probably add another six Falcon drivers (50EX) under $80K.

The last five guys I know who got hired into the Legacy all started at $110K or more, three in So Cal (owner/charter managed airplane) and two out west somewhere else (owner only).

The only other operator I know of who is even hiring anyone into EMBs was ADI and they're notorious for low-balling people. I think they start on the 135 Shuttle at $40K a year or something. I even applied for that gig, but that's the same pay as the Falcon 20 outfit I applied for in Texas and I preferred the equipment. Didn't get either job.

Whatever. I'm so non-current now that I'll probably never get a job.

But really, dont even try to lump in the few low ball, work for anything airline types (EMB/BBJ) to the rest of the business. You might find a 55yr old furloughed airline 737 Captain for 75K, and an EMB regional guy who feels he hit the lotto for 50K and a nice hotel....but thats not reality in the rest of the corporate world, even in a $hitty market....Thank God.

Any way, no ERJ Captain is going to take a job now for $50K a year. He's gonna' make a lot more than that on the 145 with a pretty good schedule. Ten years ago an $8K raise to $55K a year with a great schedule was a jackpot. Not now. (Better than unemployment though. I'm staring at $30K a year mowing lawns, teaching college, or delivering pizza and thinking, "That wouldn't be too bad.")

I love you guys, but you're wrong on this one.

 

[Freight Dog]

But really, dont even try to lump in the few low ball, work for anything airline types (EMB/BBJ) to the rest of the business. You might find a 55yr old furloughed airline 737 Captain for 75K, and an EMB regional guy who feels he hit the lotto for 50K and a nice hotel....but thats not reality in the rest of the corporate world, even in a $hitty market....Thank God.

Easy there, Tiger... not all of us flying "airline types" in the corporate world make sh*t money. Some of us are making a much nicer living than a number of Gulfstream/Falcon/Bombardier drivers.

Just sayin'...

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Easy there, Tiger... not all of us flying "airline types" in the corporate world make sh*t money. Some of us are making a much nicer living than a number of Gulfstream/Falcon/Bombardier drivers.

Just sayin'...

Thats why I said a "few" tiger....and yeah, I do know your story.

"just sayin'.."

 

[rumrnr78]

LD,

I'm not defending the market, just saying what it is. I know of no 900ex/Easy pilots working for under 100K - not even close. And yes, I know if non-typed guys hired into Falcons recently at 100k+ as SICs...that honestly the market at semi-quality jobs...and I personally wouldn't shop anything but - no matter what the market is.

While I don't know where you are shopping, Im talking all major metro areas. SoCal, NY, etc...Is it a hard market? I hear it is...but I have not seen or heard of any low-balling by quality operations. I cant claim to hang with the brightest crowd (lol) but Falcon/Gulfstream/Global guys are not doing too bad around me. I have quite a few friends who fly Falcons (50/900/Easy/7X) and their pay ranges from 115K-200K+....80K? C'mon!!

I cant speak for Legacy pilots. There is no Legacys near me, that I know of.
'
But really, dont even try to lump in the few low ball, work for anything airline types (EMB/BBJ) to the rest of the business. You might find a 55yr old furloughed airline 737 Captain for 75K, and an EMB regional guy who feels he hit the lotto for 50K and a nice hotel....but thats not reality in the rest of the corporate world, even in a $hitty market....Thank God.

I am quoting this post only cause all of them would not fit. I find your posts to LD dismissive, condecending and disrespecful.

You impune his skills and claim that he does not know how to land a "true" jet in a crosswind. I have had the pleasure of flying with LD in a Falcon (For a well known phone company (now) based in Dallas that paid it's new hires below 80k! Well, that's when they hired captains. Now that they have ********************e on their "surplus" pilots and hired co-pilots off the street, God only knows the package! Heeeeey, hang in there, in 18 years you can be at 95k base!) and LD in a crosswind, gusty situation in a Falcon was just fine. I believe his point was about precision in the landing that you can't get in a Falcon because of the "neutral" aileron.

I fly a Challenger 850 (a low paying corporate regional jet to you) that is a joy to fly in a strong, gusty crosswind compared to the Falcon 50ex.

You will be happy to know that I earn a great living (mostly tax free) and since I don't sweat NY/North East repressive state tax (God bless Texas!) the take home is even better. Keep clinging to that KTEB lifestyle! Sounds like a hoot!

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I am quoting this post only cause all of them would not fit. I find your posts to LD dismissive, condecending and disrespecful.

You impune his skills and claim that he does not know how to land a "true" jet in a crosswind. I have had the pleasure of flying with LD in a Falcon (For a well known phone company (now) based in Dallas that paid it's new hires below 80k! Well, that's when they hired captains. Now that they have ********************e on their "surplus" pilots and hired co-pilots off the street, God only knows the package! Heeeeey, hang in there, in 18 years you can be at 95k base!) and LD in a crosswind, gusty situation in a Falcon was just fine. I believe his point was about precision in the landing that you can't get in a Falcon because of the "neutral" aileron.

I fly a Challenger 850 (a low paying corporate regional jet to you) that is a joy to fly in a strong, gusty crosswind compared to the Falcon 50ex.

You will be happy to know that I earn a great living (mostly tax free) and since I don't sweat NY/North East repressive state tax (God bless Texas!) the take home is even better. Keep clinging to that KTEB lifestyle! Sounds like a hoot!

Guys lets stick to the facts.....

You both talk about those superior skills you know RJ pilots have, but:

You were both limited to 20kt crosswinds
You both admit you had difficulty landing a Falcon in the wind
You both made less than 80K/yr
You were both canned as soon as the opportunity was avail.

2 years later one has found Jesus and is flying a 152, one is doing contract RJ work in Asia. HEY, whatever pays the bills or floats your boat guys, nobody cares....but 99.9% of us who have been to Asia or the Mideast know that nobody goes there by choice. I know, I know, you are "living the life" and none of the above were YOUR fault, its was terrible management or a poorly designed Falcon..we know.....

Hey (or yeeeeahhhhh as you say to each other?) at least its not Teterboro! God Bless Texas, sounds like a really great place to make a living, even if you have to do it from Singapore.

"precision landing due to the neutral aileron".....WHAT!??? I have a few thousand hours in Falcons and really have no f'n idea what you are talking about!......it lands no different than any jet I have ever flown....and lucky me my employer lets me make my own decisions as to what wind I can handle! Did all your pilots have the 20kt training wheels on, or just the RJ kids?

I know of no other Falcon pilots who have ever had "manufacturer defect" trouble with crosswinds...:laugh:...ditto for Global, Gulfstream, Hawker, Learjet pilots etc etc....then again guys, I guess you get what you pay for?

And please! - Disrespectful to LegacyDriver? He knows I have always held him in very high regard (minus his xwind technique) and I really hope he looks me up when he does his first solo x-country up to KTEB.. Beers are on me, no doubt!

 

[NCherches]

...This thread is getting pretty good. Don't make fun of my Bravo please!

 

[LegacyDriver]

"precision landing due to the neutral aileron".....WHAT!??? I have a few thousand hours in Falcons and really have no f'n idea what you are talking about!......it lands no different than any jet I have ever flown....

Cuz you've never flown a *REAL* airplane.

Duh.

It does *NOT* land like an EMB in a crosswind. Not even close. You can land an EMB any way you want in a x-wind: wing down , wing level, whatever. In a Falcon you basically get wing level and take what you get (or just a baby bit of bank to help with some differential thrust thrown in for fun if you want). That's it. You will reach the x-wind limit in a 50 before you will in the 145 by a CONSDIERABLE margin. But that's no surprise considering the EMB has about five times the rudder and more than double the wing clearance.

The Falcon lands like sh*t compared to the Legacy and that's just a fact of life. When I first flew the Falcon after many thousands of hours in Embraers I was like, "What the hell kind of dinky assed toy is this?" Yes, I had to "learn" the arplane and I got to be good at X-Wind landings in it, but it isn't even close to as good as the EMB in that department (I guarantee that even you would agree with me if you ever had the chance to fly an EMB) , nor is it particularly intuitive IMHO based on how I learned to fly. Then again, I can land in stiffer crosswinds than anyone I know be it a 152 or a 145. Maybe the Embraer spoiled me and that's fine. But you're delusional if you think the Falcon is the equal of any RJ (or even a Gulfstream for that matter) in a crosswind.

When I was in groundschool crosswind technique for the Falcon was a constant topic of conversation and the instructors made a fair point to scare the hell out of everyone about bank angle. The Citation X doesn't land like an EMB either. Bank that sucker and you scrape it. Simple as that... Maybe you are just weird (or you are lying your a** off about your "skillz").

I know of no other Falcon pilots who have ever had "manufacturer defect" trouble with crosswinds...

Sure.... That's why when the 50 came out they had to add rudder for the EX and why when the 7X came out they had to do the same. Whatever dude.

And please! - Disrespectful to LegacyDriver? He knows I have always held him in very high regard (minus his xwind technique) and I really hope he looks me up when he does his first solo x-country up to KTEB.. Beers are on me, no doubt!

Not always you d*chebag. You loved hating my guts for many years.

And I will take you up on that offer if I'm ever in KTEB. Guaranteed. But no cameras. I don't want any physical evidence that we are friends please.

 

[NCherches]

I know a guy who slips jets to loose airspeed. It was exciting-never seen that before.