Nasty Chief Pilots

[747flyboy]

That would piss me off too. Sorry, but you don't sound like you'd be very agreeable to fly with as either FO or Captain. Self-righteousness is not an endearing quality... maybe those captains were "azzclowns" but there's a right way and a wrong way to approach it. Nobody appreciates being constantly second guessed.

And here we go again with typical forum bullsh1t. I didn't think I would have to explain in detail with a 1,000 word post telling how I would fly with these certain idiots and learn about their bad, unsafe habits. After learning about these certain pilots I would than, as co-pilot, become the final authority when it came to their bad decisions, otherwise that plane goes nowhere.

Second guessing is what some captains need because they simply suck, sorry.

I flew with good captains too who didn't make stupid decisions, we got along great and they got the respect they deserved. But when you fly with a total azzhole who makes decisions that can kill you, sorry, I won't have it. Thats why there are two pilots in these types of aircraft, two heads not just one head with an idiot wearing it.

Maybe you skated through and didn't have to deal with unsafe fools, I had a large dose of them and I made a simple rule for myslef when I got out of college....ready, here goes, its real simple......"Ain't no pilot of any kind gonna kill my ass because they're inexperienced or just plain stupid."

I doubt seriously if a brand new co-pilot out of an instructing job could come into a Part 135 all-jet aircraft operation and on Day 1 tell everyone how its gonna be and that I'll be making all the decisions. You have to be able to get the implied info from a post.

How about this: (6 years ago) One of these idiot captains I speak of is sitting at Stuart airport with my fiance who is also a co-pilot. I'm in Nassau waiting for them because we're picking up a party of 13, so we needed two Lears. He's a fat slob of a captain and my fiance has been a co-pilot for 2 months. So, this fat slob doesn't want to wait for the fuel truck anymore because he doesn't want to miss out on the free conch salad they give us at the FBO. Long story short....they had to shut an engine down on the gas-sucking Lear 25 so they had enough fuel to get in. She came up to us scared ********************less, they pulled into the ramp with 300 pounds in the left wing. If you know anything about Lear 25's you'll know that 300 pounds is PATHETIC. I did everything but beat his fat azz on the ramp. Even after dealing with me for the past 9 months before I made captain, he still risked peoples lives like that with stupid decisions. That was his last flight with the company because I told the boss she will never fly with that azzhole again and that I will be telling the rest of the co-pilots to refuse as well. Same captain that slid to the end of the runway due to ice at PDK sideways for 1,000 feet. Same guy that lands at the wrong airports, takes out taxi-way lights because he's looking inside, hits a wingtip on a fence, doesn't set the parking break and almost totals the plane into a ditch, blah, blah, blah.

I ask every co-pilot I fly with for every single bit of input they have. If they want more fuel I'd put it on just to show them and than at destination explain why we have so much fuel, thats how they learn. And if they're not happy about anything we talk about it.

And you're wrong, I'm just the captain people want to fly with. I value any and all input, even if its a disagreement about a decision. Planes I fly at least take-off with both pilots happy and comfortable about the flight.

 

[747flyboy]

Yeah those types really suck...so far, the Capts I've flown with here at my new job have been great. Good pilots, but also are not affraid to ask "well we should do this, What do you think?". That's what I like, why b/c the day I become a captain here which wont be to long now, I will do the same with my FOs. Ask them if they are comfortable with my decisions, if they are ok accepting the trip. Last captain I flew with was great, we had a 9:00am departure, a show time of 8:00am, and he would say. You wanna show at 8:00 or 8:30, that's just great to me.
Of course not every captain can do that, especially if you have a very slow FO or the other way around.
The thing that pisses me off about some of the ****************************** bags I've flown with is that they act as if they where born a captain.
Like I told a guy before, you want me to be the ideal captain then you have to make me a captain, by teaching and example. Not by "just do it" or "do it this way b/c I said so"

The way I always taught was "hey, just an opinion. Try doing this, or try this technique." then explain why and the benefits of doing it that way. I always finish that with a "this is just my opinion, or if you have a better way please le me know"

YOU WILL ALWAYS KEEP LEARNING MR CP!!

Exactly. The second a person thinks they're something special because they're a PILOT or for GOD sake they make CAPTAIN, thats when they become a total...TOOL. Alot of captains also think there's no more for them to learn.

Its pretty obvious that to have a real accident, as in fatal, an amazing amount of things have to go wrong. Barring a wing coming off. Otherwise out of the 10,000+ take-offs and landings we have every day, we'd have dozens of crashes every day.
The main thing most captains forget is the reaon there's another pilot on board. Its certainly not just to land the plane in case the captain drops dead. Its to minimize the chance of all those holes lining up in that Swiss cheese model (the swiss cheeze effect). And those decisions start hours before the flight.

Thats how I instructed too. Teach them the only way you know how, if they can do it safely and get the required result your way or their way, well great, they're becoming their own pilot.

 

[Flybet3]

And here we go again with typical forum bullsh1t. I didn't think I would have to explain in detail with a 1,000 word post telling how I would fly with these certain idiots and learn about their bad, unsafe habits. After learning about these certain pilots I would than, as co-pilot, become the final authority when it came to their bad decisions, otherwise that plane goes nowhere.

Second guessing is what some captains need because they simply suck, sorry.

I flew with good captains too who didn't make stupid decisions, we got along great and they got the respect they deserved. But when you fly with a total azzhole who makes decisions that can kill you, sorry, I won't have it. Thats why there are two pilots in these types of aircraft, two heads not just one head with an idiot wearing it.

Maybe you skated through and didn't have to deal with unsafe fools, I had a large dose of them and I made a simple rule for myslef when I got out of college....ready, here goes, its real simple......"Ain't no pilot of any kind gonna kill my ass because they're inexperienced or just plain stupid."

I doubt seriously if a brand new co-pilot out of an instructing job could come into a Part 135 all-jet aircraft operation and on Day 1 tell everyone how its gonna be and that I'll be making all the decisions. You have to be able to get the implied info from a post.

How about this: (6 years ago) One of these idiot captains I speak of is sitting at Stuart airport with my fiance who is also a co-pilot. I'm in Nassau waiting for them because we're picking up a party of 13, so we needed two Lears. He's a fat slob of a captain and my fiance has been a co-pilot for 2 months. So, this fat slob doesn't want to wait for the fuel truck anymore because he doesn't want to miss out on the free conch salad they give us at the FBO. Long story short....they had to shut an engine down on the gas-sucking Lear 25 so they had enough fuel to get in. She came up to us scared ********************less, they pulled into the ramp with 300 pounds in the left wing. If you know anything about Lear 25's you'll know that 300 pounds is PATHETIC. I did everything but beat his fat azz on the ramp. Even after dealing with me for the past 9 months before I made captain, he still risked peoples lives like that with stupid decisions. That was his last flight with the company because I told the boss she will never fly with that azzhole again and that I will be telling the rest of the co-pilots to refuse as well. Same captain that slid to the end of the runway due to ice at PDK sideways for 1,000 feet. Same guy that lands at the wrong airports, takes out taxi-way lights because he's looking inside, hits a wingtip on a fence, doesn't set the parking break and almost totals the plane into a ditch, blah, blah, blah.

I ask every co-pilot I fly with for every single bit of input they have. If they want more fuel I'd put it on just to show them and than at destination explain why we have so much fuel, thats how they learn. And if they're not happy about anything we talk about it.

And you're wrong, I'm just the captain people want to fly with. I value any and all input, even if its a disagreement about a decision. Planes I fly at least take-off with both pilots happy and comfortable about the flight.

Hey 747flyboy
you sound like my kind of guy, let me buy you a beer one of theses days.
When I grow up I want to be just like you

 

[747flyboy]

Hey 747flyboy
you sound like my kind of guy, let me buy you a beer one of theses days.
When I grow up I want to be just like you

I live in Orlando and Ft. Lauderdale.

 

[ackattacker]

I wasn't trying to start a flame war... I know people like that exist. I quit a job once over just such an idiot. As an FO I had to repeatedly stand up for what was safe and legal and it got to be too much. I've heard it all - "Watch this", "This airplane was designed to fly way over gross", "That fuel pump isn't required", etc etc. Hell I had one guy I told to go around and he refused ("watch this"). After that he throws it into beta in flight (prohibited) and we still almost run off the runway. After nearly killing us all he says "I appreciate the input, but I'm PIC".

Anyway I still always tried to maintain a non-confrontational but firm attitude about it, because A-holes just turn into bigger A-holes when put on the defensive. My point was that I would hope that if an FO was not happy about my fuel order or anything else they would go through me and talk about it. If they went straight to the fueler and changed the order on their own then I'd consider that way out of line and pretty much open revolt. At the point where it's open revolt then you're no longer a crew and you need to step back and say "this trip isn't going to be safe no matter what so this job is not worth my certificates and possibly my life".

Anyway, no hard feelings, I'd have a beer with you too.

 

[Flybet3]

I wasn't trying to start a flame war... I know people like that exist. I quit a job once over just such an idiot. As an FO I had to repeatedly stand up for what was safe and legal and it got to be too much. I've heard it all - "Watch this", "This airplane was designed to fly way over gross", "That fuel pump isn't required", etc etc. Hell I had one guy I told to go around and he refused ("watch this"). After that he throws it into beta in flight (prohibited) and we still almost run off the runway. After nearly killing us all he says "I appreciate the input, but I'm PIC".

Anyway I still always tried to maintain a non-confrontational but firm attitude about it, because A-holes just turn into bigger A-holes when put on the defensive. My point was that I would hope that if an FO was not happy about my fuel order or anything else they would go through me and talk about it. If they went straight to the fueler and changed the order on their own then I'd consider that way out of line and pretty much open revolt. At the point where it's open revolt then you're no longer a crew and you need to step back and say "this trip isn't going to be safe no matter what so this job is not worth my certificates and possibly my life".

Anyway, no hard feelings, I'd have a beer with you too.

Let's just all get drunk, stand on the breaks and go to full reverse 100 feet of the ground! LOL

 

[81Horse]

Anyone here had any experiences with chief pilots that are truly **************************************** ?

Do DOs count? One of them tried to kill me in a LR35 once, and I'm still a little bitter about that.

He didn't mind using the brakes, though. In fact, on that flight, he couldn't get to parking and out of the airplane fast enough.

 

[747flyboy]

I wasn't trying to start a flame war... I know people like that exist. I quit a job once over just such an idiot. As an FO I had to repeatedly stand up for what was safe and legal and it got to be too much. I've heard it all - "Watch this", "This airplane was designed to fly way over gross", "That fuel pump isn't required", etc etc. Hell I had one guy I told to go around and he refused ("watch this"). After that he throws it into beta in flight (prohibited) and we still almost run off the runway. After nearly killing us all he says "I appreciate the input, but I'm PIC".

Anyway I still always tried to maintain a non-confrontational but firm attitude about it, because A-holes just turn into bigger A-holes when put on the defensive. My point was that I would hope that if an FO was not happy about my fuel order or anything else they would go through me and talk about it. If they went straight to the fueler and changed the order on their own then I'd consider that way out of line and pretty much open revolt. At the point where it's open revolt then you're no longer a crew and you need to step back and say "this trip isn't going to be safe no matter what so this job is not worth my certificates and possibly my life".

Anyway, no hard feelings, I'd have a beer with you too.

Understood. But yes, I didn't show up as a zero hour jet co-pilot and tell everyone how it was gonna be, I would do these things after repeated bad decisions when they didn't care about my input. Luckily for me the owner of the company liked me alot and we became friends in a short time. And all these bad captains were contract guys so he didn't really care how I treated them. Our full time salary captains were all great and very safe. After these contact guys showed me zero respect I would than do things like add fuel without telling them because they just argued and refused if I talked about it. After awhile a few of them would jokingly, but serious before a flight, look at me and say, "so is this fuel order good with you?" And we would still land with 1,000 pounds in a Lear 25, which is not alot of reserve. One VFR, in-the-pattern go-around and there goes 600-700 pounds. Vectors back out in IMC for another shot at an ILS, or even worse have to get in line for a non-precision approach, and now you're tooling around with death.

I've had the "I appreciate the input, but I'm PIC" comment too. I followed up with, "risk the plane and us again and I'll be the one to kick your ass." No kidding, just how I was and always will be. I'm the guy that'll tell an FAA inspector on a 747 captain fed ride to please keep his mouth shut while we're on final shooting an ILS into Anchorage in bad weather because we're trying to read checklists. I'm just a guy that speaks up and hates the high-and-mighty idiots in this industry. I've never been fired from a job but I'd certainly rather get fired from being the way I am and speaking up than take any crap or let someone conduct a flight unsafely in any way.

Really though, I was a co-pilot for all of 9-10 months, after that I was captain and since than there's been no problems. My co-pilots are looked at as 50% of the crew and their input is quite important to me. One day they may catch something critical that I miss and I don't want someone sitting there worrying about if I'm gonna shut them down or snap at them for saying something or for disagreeing with me. But I was co-pilot on the 747 and luckily 99% of them realized you don't play games and alter tried and true procedures, but man there were certainly a couple that thought they were God. I just laughed at them and cut up on them.

Let the beers fly

 

[747flyboy]

Do DOs count? One of them tried to kill me in a LR35 once, and I'm still a little bitter about that.

He didn't mind using the brakes, though. In fact, on that flight, he couldn't get to parking and out of the airplane fast enough.

DO's, same thing, mostly knuckleheads on a power trip. Some fly every couple months so they can tell people they fly too, but really their just dangerous as hell.

 

[LimoDriver]

It seems to me that 747Flyboy thinks he is God's gift to aviation!

What's the common denominator in all the Captains you think are trying to kill you? It's you! And your attitude problem.

I don't think I'd have wanted to fly with you as my F/O. I run a very open, even "democratic" flight deck. I solicit and act on all crew inputs.....But I do not let the F/O assume "command" of the flight.

Just my $.02

 

[747flyboy]

It seems to me that 747Flyboy thinks he is God's gift to aviation!

What's the common denominator in all the Captains you think are trying to kill you? It's you! And your attitude problem.

I don't think I'd have wanted to fly with you as my F/O. I run a very open, even "democratic" flight deck. I solicit and act on all crew inputs.....But I do not let the F/O assume "command" of the flight.

Just my $.02

If you run a democratic cockpit and listen to all crew input and didn't do anything stupid and unsafe than you and I would have flown together very safely and had alot of fun doing it. Hell, I used two of those "good" captains that I was a co-pilot for 7 years ago last month to fill in at my company as contract guys, we're all still friends.

Pilots who think they're God's gift to aviation are the ones who talk like they're the best and they know everything....I don't do that, I learn new things every week, be it a small thing or a big eye-opener.

One thing I don't subscribe to and I don't think any new co-pilot or experienced co-pilot should subscribe to is sitting there watching a loser captain (and there's a BUNCH of them out there) risk their lives or doing very stupid things over and over......all in the name of "tradition" that says the captain is the king of the ship. F#%k that my friend. Captains aren't king of my life.

I lost 3 friends in a single mid-air collision in a Learjet, another friend 4 months later from running off a runway in a Learjet in Pennsylvania...all from bad captain decisions at this same company and the co-pilots were too new to want to speak up. So keep your piehole shut about how I conducted myself as a co-pilot. Both accidents involved the crappy captains I'm speaking of. Only good thing about the accidents is that they're gone too.

And I'm not the common denominator with all these captains.....there were a handful of contract losers that couldn't get real jobs anywhere else, but as you may know, Part 135 operators will use anyone to get the job done. MOST of the captains I flew with were awesome and I learned volumes from them. All of our co-pilots would report to the boss about these idiots, I was just the one who took action when it mattered, which was in the air while flying the dang plane, and I simply didn't let a plane leave the ground unsafe. Period, that the rule and thats the way it should be. WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH THAT?

Captains who think their God are the problem in this industry, not the co-pilots who speak up and take some control when they see a potential problem.

Jeez, this issue is so simple but it'll probably never end because there's always someone that feels threatened that their manhood as a captain is challenged.

 

[maximizer]

........he has many issues. most which maturity will take care of.imp:

 

[HawkDrvr]

Been watching this thread develop and I felt compelled to chime in with some insight...

However unpopular my feelings may be I have noticed over the past few years an increasing trend of complaints about Captains. I tend to attribute most of this to the corresponding increasing trend of very young F.O.'s that are sitting in equipment today that 15 years ago they wouldn't have a prayer of operating at the experience level they are today... Add to this the fact that within today's generation it is very rare to find an early twenty-something that can take constructive criticism and has attention to detail.

Bottom line is the fact that the PIC is the final authority as to the safe operation of the aircraft. It is his/her responsibility to make sure everything gets done correctly and a good Captain will teach when the opportunity presents itself. However, while the advances in training have made it possible to place individuals in the right seat with barely 1000 TT (sometimes even less) the Captains are many times left without an experienced partner to add a valuable second opinion to the decision making process. Sure most F.O.'s with the right training are very capable but 5 or 6 years of being in the real world can't be taught in a FSI/Simuflite 14 day initial. Sure they can master V1 cuts, electrical failures, or any other emergencies that the sim. can throw at them but most have a hard time looking at a line of convective activity to make an informed decision on where/if to get by it.

Simply put, there are so many things that can only learned through experience and there are so many jet F.O.'s today that have skipped right by the traditional experience building jobs and find themselves thrown in to situations where the Captain may or may not have time to be an effective teacher. I think it is in these situations where many Captains get unfairly labeled as A-holes... Over the past 10 years of operating turbine equipment I can count on 1 hand the number of true "A-hole" Captains. This combined with the unbelievable amount of whining from F.O.'s about jerk Captains tells me that something doesn't add up and that something has changed... I will leave it to the rest of you to figure it out.

Flame away...:erm:

 

[Snakum]

Being lucky enough to fly with many different Captains over the past year, each one operating differently from the others (Part 91), I have found that adapting to, and finding your boundaries with, each one individually, is the best way to cultivate an ally in learning and growing as a pilot. And the best way for me to do that on my first day with a new Captain is to keep my eyes and ears open and my big mouth shut.

I have yet to have a Captain that failed to respond positively when he's shown the respect he deserves as the 'Boss' (and he IS the boss, whether we like it or not), and when shown a willingness to learn and to do things the way he wants them done. Every single one of them has taken the time to explain why they do something a certain way when asked in a humble and professional manner, in the spirit of learning. And every single one of them has bent over backwards to help me step up to the next level, even going so far as to spend an hour in front of a whiteboard or with a notebook in the FBO late on a Saturday night when he'd much rather be going home to the wife and kids, going over what I could have done better or differently. You just don't get that kind of mentoring by being a loud-mouthed know-it-all.

If one of them did something I thought was clearly dangerous I would speak up immediately, and all of them thus far have asked me to do exactly that. I'd even punch one and take the aircraft if I thought he'd gone nuts and was going to get us both seriously kilt. But outside that higely remote possibility ... the Captain is, indeed, the 'boss', and I am there to assist, and to learn. And as I said, the best way for me to learn is for me to shut my pie hole and leave my ego in the car.

You might want to try that sometime, 747flyboy. You may find that the consistent problems you evidently have with Captains diminishes quite a bit, or disappears altogether.

 

[TxPilot0878]

Cont'd

Grumman and tracearabians....many props!

I have flown for the scum of the earth 135 cargo companies, skydive ops, and instructing gigs....

but this line is hilarious and made me smile...I am definitely gonna steal and use it!!!!!

This dick head I flew with had the personality of a styrofoam cup!!

Grumman....your line about opposite direction of what you requested is classic! We will have to compare notes...probably the same guy!

 

[NCherches]

The worst are chief pilot's who fly an airplane in a flight department and think that just because they're owners/crews are happy on their airplane the whole department is running smooth...

Chief Pilot's hired solely by the grey-ness of their hair aren't always the best bet.

 

[Basil]

The worst are chief pilot's who fly an airplane in a flight department and think that just because they're owners/crews are happy on their airplane the whole department is running smooth...

Chief Pilot's hired solely by the grey-ness of their hair aren't always the best bet.

I wonder who you could be talking about?

 

[ILOVEBEER]

TF, chief pilot at a regional that flies in the Sky, West of the rockies, is without a doubt the biggest d-bag in the US, if not the world.




.

 

[NCherches]

I wonder who you could be talking about?

...no one in particular lol... just making a simple statement haha... happy to longer be working for him :beer:

 

[TCAS]

However unpopular my feelings may be I have noticed over the past few years an increasing trend of complaints about Captains. I tend to attribute most of this to the corresponding increasing trend of very young F.O.'s that are sitting in equipment today that 15 years ago they wouldn't have a prayer of operating at the experience level they are today... Add to this the fact that within today's generation it is very rare to find an early twenty-something that can take constructive criticism and has attention to detail.

AMEN! + 1 ... and it's the same thing over in the "airline world."