more ACA furloughs

[dogg]

The harsh reality that fee for departure is about as profitable as dot com..... It is too bad that a whole industry was built around bad science.... There will be some serious casualties before it is over and it sounds like ACA is first in line to go down the "proverbial tube". What a great time to have your company fail, just when there are no jobs in your line of work.... See ya later blue ridgers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[House_X]

The harsh reality that fee for departure is about as profitable as dot com..... It is too bad that a whole industry was built around bad science.... There will be some serious casualties before it is over and it sounds like ACA is first in line to go down the "proverbial tube". What a great time to have your company fail, just when there are no jobs in your line of work.... See ya later blue ridgers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll take this one....

ACA's misfortunes are the result of bad luck (Dornier out of business) and UAL's demise. Bad science has nothing to do with it. Fee for departure contracts work for both parties. Problem is UAL want's a fee that' s too low. I guess it's ACA's fault that United doesn't want to pay the ACTUAL COSTS OF FLYING OUT OF ORD AND IAD. At least our management has the foresight to walk away from a bad contract. Here at ACA, we don't act like b#tches willing to work for nothing.


As far as the comment of ACA going down the "proverbial tube"....I'm sure there are many others like you who would love for ACA to fail at WHATEVER path we take. It's nice to see pilots looking out for other pilots...keep up the good work and thanks for the sympathy.

House

 

[JTrain]

HouseX - Well said!

BTW - Are there any other curious ACAers like myself wishing our ALPA would come out with some sort of statement re the rumors of D328J possible shift to CMR? The buzz is getting louder by the day - and its not our people who originate it, but the CMR types, who have heard that their co is requesting they negotiate D328J pay rates. I would suspect its only logical that ACA amd CMR would give some the opportunity to shift - ACA would benefit since they'd save an enormous retraining cost (300+ pilots) and CMR could benefit by a ready-training group of pilots.

JT

 

[Anaconda]

would you say that most, or all, of the do-jet pilots would want to come over to comair if that did happen? or are a lot of guys holding out for "goldilocks" (is that what your company calls it?)?

 

[46Driver]

Anaconda,
That's the same question I was asking myself. I think that a lot depends on if the ACA pilots come over at the bottom of the Comair list or if there is some type of integration.

As for me, I'm going to stay with ACA. Nothing against Comair, but I'll roll the dice for the chance to grow into a LCC. Also, the commute has a lot to do with it - trying to commute out of PNS is a nightmare on Delta - and I think it would be 2 legs up to CVG. If ACA serves the Gulf Coast, my commute (on our own aircraft) would make life much more pleasant.

 

[JTrain]

Anaconda -

I waffle constantly on the issue. With my DOH (mid-summer 2000) I suspect I would have the seniority to hold a jr. CA spot at CMR (could you confirm this). As it sounds right now, I'm a "senior" FO, with no prospects of upgrading for I suspect at least another 2yrs, and I need another hour of FO time like I need a bullet in my head. Nothing against being an FO - I enjoy my position and the seniority I have in my seat, but it comes to the point where professionally, I don't think I'm developing as I should be.

I believe the fundamentals of CMR as a company are much more sound than at ACA - that being said, we are seeing a lot of operational improvements so this issue is still up in the air.

Risking it with the ACA LCC would be an interesting. I think it definitely has potential - it started with quite a bang and everyone was quite enthusted, but it seems to have lost some steam. For example, I was told in recurrent that the a/c type would be selected by early Sept - its now nearly Oct and according to the Chief Pilot hotline yesterday they aren't anticipating any narrowbody transition until at least 2Q of 2004. A lot of things have to fall in place for it to succeed - ACA mgmt recognizes that and they are changing things.

If I had to make the choice right now - I would probably be 55% going to CMR, 45% staying with ACA, however there are a few other issues to consider like how seniority/DOH integration would work. I'd also have to check with some buds at CMR to get a thorough inside look at the place.

I'd be interested to hear more perspective from other ACA 328ers. I know there's a lot of people commuting out of the IAD area to both CVG and BOS who are just itching to get back to the LCC, but there's also others like myself who have settled in at other bases like BOS or CVG and enjoy the lifestyle and flying out here. In particular, a lot of our guys are settling in CVG and like the cheap cost of living - I think if given reasonable seniority they'd make the jump - of course this is entirely speculative.

Other perspectives?

JT

 

[Anaconda]

With my DOH (mid-summer 2000) I suspect I would have the seniority to hold a jr. CA spot at CMR (could you confirm this).

that's correct. you wouldn't be at the bottom, but you would be close to it...

 

[House_X]

46 & JTrain-

Unfortunately, we may never get the chance to bid the CRJ. As more people get furloughed and CA's keep getting displaced (as CRJ f/o's), we will be pushed further down the list. The F/O's in the 41's will most likely get displaced into the CRJ before 328 F/O's (out of seniority as part of current negotiations). The only way we'll get the CRJ is bump and flush...the company will avoid that at all costs. The question is how many pilots does ACA need? I say 1200. If that's that's the case, I'm getting my gold bars today.

 

[surplus1]

With my DOH (mid-summer 2000) I suspect I would have the seniority to hold a jr. CA spot at CMR (could you confirm this).

Other perspectives?
JT

JT,

This is all speculation as well, so don't bet the farm on any of it, but here are some numbers that may give you an idea. They are not "perfect" but they are reasonably close and based on our most recent published "list" (07/01/03)

You said your DOH was "mid summer" of 2000. I assumed that was June 1.

I count about 12 Captains on the CMR list with hire dates between 06/2000 and 12/2000.

Between 01/2000 and 05/2000 I count about 70 FO's (all senior to you - if you were hired in June). Going back to 1999, I count another 65 +- FO's, also senior to you. I didn't go further than that.

So roughly, there are now about 150 CMR FO's senior to you (I'm sure more if I went back further) and whether or not you could hold a left seat is somewhat doubtful.

If these airplanes did come to CMR and you guys come with them, I assume that no one would be displaced from his current position. I assume also that the seniority integration would be DOH. After that, future vacancies would be bid on seniority.

The Company would most likely want to avoid as much training as possible and would probably ask for some sort of fence to avoid the training bubble. That would present some problems due to the bypass provisions of the Comair PWA, but within reason, it is doable.

For these reasons, I don't see your rapid promotion to Captain as a result of this transition. Not with the seniority you currently have. It would take roughly 30 new airplanes to upgrade the FO's that are currently at CMR and senior to you. When or if those aiplanes will come is anybody's guess.

If Comairs' pilots don't give in to the concession request, they may never come and we might even lose some that we have now. If we do give in to concessions (which I hope we will not do) there is still no guarantee whatever that we will get even one new airplane. As long as Delta doesn't sign our PWA, we have no guaranteed flying of any kind, no matter what Comair might "promise".

This is just my opinion, but maybe it will give you some insight. Presonally I would be happy to welcome all of you with DOH seniority because I believe that is fair, but I have no idea what others think about it.

Best wishes and sorry you are having furloughs at ACA.

 

[House_X]

Also, we may not get the luxury of choosing, I heard we (328 pilots) go witht the jets if transfered. That fine with me...I can use the Delta travel card and go to Spain on my days off...

I would love to stay at ACA, but I think that decision is beyond my control.

Almost forgot...I want to thank all the people who picked up open time while our 96 guys are on the street...thanks to you, more of our brethren will be joining them.

 

[46Driver]

House,
I seriously doubt if the company can force us to leave - more likely, they might give us the option of leaving.

As for picking up open time, that's got nothing to do with the furloughs. We simply have too many pilots - as evidenced by at least 70 captains being displaced to F.O. Also, you have some of the military guys coming back to ACA with the demobilization of their reserve units.

 

[JTrain]

Surplus - Good point. One of my friends from the CFI has a CMR DOH of March/00 and he is hanging out, enjoying the great QOL he gets as a sr. CRJ FO. For some reason I was under the impression that CA had gone more jr. at CMR than it had - my bad. Assuming I were to get transferred (and this is all idle Sat. afternoon speculation) to CMR, it would be my preference to stay in the D328J fleet, and I also suspect CMR would put some sort of fence around the CRJ initially to prevent the training bubble that you talked about. I appreciate all the perspectives you've offered on CMR on this board - it has given some good insight into your co.

I would suspect that *if* CMR were to take the D328Js, ACA crewmembers would be given the option of either going or staying. There are a # of sr. sr. ACA folks who anticipating the IAD D328J base had bid the equipment and are now commuting to BOS and CVG (these people could have been in the CRJ years ago at ACA but stayed in jr. equipment like the J41 or J32 for quality of life issues). Many such people would want to stay with the ACA LCC since they live in the Northern VA area - hence I strongly believe ACAers would be given stay or go options.

As I had mentioned earlier, it would be in ACA's interests were the D328J to leave the fleet to give the pilots the option of going to whomever would fly the a/c. The last thing ACA wants to do is spend $$$ on 350+ D328J crewmembers to retrain them in seniority order on the narrowbody or CRJ, then furlough because of a surplus of pilots. Whomever (CMR?) would benefit from taking the D328J with a pre-trained group of pilots.

Again - this is all idle Sat. afternoon speculation, I'm enjoying the perspectives Anacondan, House X, and others are offering as the rumor mill keeps pumping....

JT

 

[SkywayFO]

Well I am 1 of the 50 new F'd guys. I'm a CRJ guy here at ACA but I have about 800 hours in the 328J from my last airline. I'm game for going to Comair. Not that it will be offered to me but it is nice to dream. Atleast it seems at Comair you are treated a little more human. I for one never drank the company koolaid, I stuck with the vodka. I have been telling people this "project independence", "goldilocks" was not going to be pretty. I thought it was going to be "project take it in the A$$". Hell at this piont I would go to Comair just for the leather jacket!!!!




"Mav you got that number for that truck driving school? I think I'm going to need that. Truck Masters it think it was!!!"

 

[exphojump]

I would definitely go with the LCC.

Many of the 328 guys hired in 2000 might have a different opinion. They experienced the ACJet cluster. After furloughs, scared into bad TA, diplacements, Goldilocks raising false short term hopes, another round of displacements and furloughs, maybe more furloughs, and UAL jacking with us towards the end, I expect more than half would choose DOH at CMR.

Ain't no fun waiting 'round to be a millionaire.

 

[Beechnut]

What is the "Goldilocks" reference I keep reading about?

S.

 

[Patriot328]

JT,

This is all speculation as well, so don't bet the farm on any of it, but here are some numbers that may give you an idea. They are not "perfect" but they are reasonably close and based on our most recent published "list" (07/01/03)

You said your DOH was "mid summer" of 2000. I assumed that was June 1.

I count about 12 Captains on the CMR list with hire dates between 06/2000 and 12/2000.

Between 01/2000 and 05/2000 I count about 70 FO's (all senior to you - if you were hired in June). Going back to 1999, I count another 65 +- FO's, also senior to you. I didn't go further than that.

So roughly, there are now about 150 CMR FO's senior to you (I'm sure more if I went back further) and whether or not you could hold a left seat is somewhat doubtful.

If these airplanes did come to CMR and you guys come with them, I assume that no one would be displaced from his current position. I assume also that the seniority integration would be DOH. After that, future vacancies would be bid on seniority.

The Company would most likely want to avoid as much training as possible and would probably ask for some sort of fence to avoid the training bubble. That would present some problems due to the bypass provisions of the Comair PWA, but within reason, it is doable.

For these reasons, I don't see your rapid promotion to Captain as a result of this transition. Not with the seniority you currently have. It would take roughly 30 new airplanes to upgrade the FO's that are currently at CMR and senior to you. When or if those aiplanes will come is anybody's guess.

If Comairs' pilots don't give in to the concession request, they may never come and we might even lose some that we have now. If we do give in to concessions (which I hope we will not do) there is still no guarantee whatever that we will get even one new airplane. As long as Delta doesn't sign our PWA, we have no guaranteed flying of any kind, no matter what Comair might "promise".

This is just my opinion, but maybe it will give you some insight. Presonally I would be happy to welcome all of you with DOH seniority because I believe that is fair, but I have no idea what others think about it.

Best wishes and sorry you are having furloughs at ACA.

Excellent insight surplus... I agree with your view of it, as well. I would assume that it would be some kind of DOH integration with fences built in (since we're speculating... )..

To stay or go would be a tough choice, if it would be a choice at all... I'm about 500 at ACA (April 99 hire date).. *IF* G-lox takes off I will be in a pretty good position to sit on my arse at ACA and enjoy life. CMR is much more stable, at least near term (4-5 years).. how would I fair at CMR? I dunno.. I guess I'd be able to be a CA on a CRJ after the fence came down.. Part of me wants to go for the LCC ride, though. I'm still relatively young (few more years to go before 30) and single, so I think I can chance a risky airline for a while..

Look at the bright side.. at least we'll get SIDA badges at CVG.. no more security!!!!!!


Good luck to us all, but moreso to SkywayFO and the 145 other brothers and sisters that have been hit hardest by all of this.

 

[Herman Bloom]

House

If you really think that the company has furloughed 50 more pilots because a few people were picking up open time, well....you are an absolute moron. Do the math before you open your mouth. If someone from management read that post, he would laugh his/her butt off at how ignorant the pilot group is and how easy it will be to manipulate us. They don't need to know how stupid some of us are.

Oh, and I'm not one of the ones who picked it up. Not that I wouldn't have.

 

[acapilot2003]

The harsh reality that fee for departure is about as profitable as dot com..... It is too bad that a whole industry was built around bad science.... There will be some serious casualties before it is over and it sounds like ACA is first in line to go down the "proverbial tube". What a great time to have your company fail, just when there are no jobs in your line of work.... See ya later blue ridgers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


DOGG


Is there a reason for your smart... comment? I try not to get caught up in all the politics and smack talking in the aviation industry, but I guess I didn't see any need for that comment. I have been a pilot because I love to fly and because I have to work to keep my family afloat financialy, even though regional airline pilots can hardly make a living these days. I have been on furlough from ACA now for about 5 months and can't get a job ANYWHERE, not even for any other regionals hiring. It's tough having a daughter and wife and a new house and not being able to find a job anywhere.

 

[House_X]

House

If you really think that the company has furloughed 50 more pilots because a few people were picking up open time, well....you are an absolute moron. Do the math before you open your mouth. If someone from management read that post, he would laugh his/her butt off at how ignorant the pilot group is and how easy it will be to manipulate us. They don't need to know how stupid some of us are.

Oh, and I'm not one of the ones who picked it up. Not that I wouldn't have.

If I'm such a moron, and picking up open time is not a factor, then why are you acknowledging that you never picked up open time?
The fact that you blast me for my comment and then put a disclaimer saying you never picked up open time already proves my point....case dismissed.

By the way...nice job on the name calling...

House

 

[46Driver]

My guess is that Herman is speaking logically (we have too many pilots as evidenced by the displacement of 70+ captains) - but some of y'all argue emotionally and consider it poor ethics to pick up open time.