more ACA furloughs

[Humty72]

50 more to be furloughed in addition to 96 already on the street.

Starting in Nov. - Jan. ..

crud.

 

[Sky-doggie]

50 more at ACA

Humpty72

T.O. Hey whats happening! :0( This sucks! I know that a lot of my friends have been waiting and wondering if they were going to get furloughed. I guess the rumor is now a reality! So are all of those guys and gals from that big flight school in AZ going to get put on the street. If so I wonder how many will make their way back out there.
Best of luck to everyone at ACA but especially to those who are going to be furloughed. I feel terrible for all those that I know that could be out of a job soon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have no idea what I'd be doing if that happened to me. There are so few jobs out there right now!

 

[Humty72]

starting over...

yea.. and a person can only start over so many times....



later....

 

[FMR_RGNL_PLT]

I empathize and sympathyze with those about to be furloughed.......In the past few years we've seen what used to be considered the "primo" regionals become the least desirable to work for..............


Best of luck to you all..........

 

[General Lee]

That really is sad. I wonder what the final plans are with United? Are they going to split or not? Would there be more furloughs if they have to give up the FRJs? Good luck to all.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[avrodriver]

General.......I really try and refrain from making any comments about anyone's post. But it seems sometimes you can't resist throwing a little quick jab when you try and play the good guy. I am also sad to hear of the the F's and really hope things can be transformed to make ACA another top player in the Low Cost world. Do you really have to ask if more F's will take place if the FRJ's go........think really really hard and maybe you can come up with an answer. I really hope ACA and Delta works something out that shuts all of you guys up about "we're going to get them!!!!!!!!!" It's really sicking. And I know wht your da.mn contract says.........when's the last time a contract was written in stone. I know all of us at Air Wis can answer the question for you if you really think things can't be changed.......flame away, I'm bored. AD

 

[General Lee]

Avro,

Thank you for your animated response. AS far as being sad about the furloughs, unless you have been in Iceland for the last year or so, you would know that I do fight for our furloughs at Delta, and it would make sense that I probably feel the same way about other airlines. I wouldn't wish a furlough on anyone. As far as little "jabs"---I really don't know what will happen with ACA and the FRJs--and I was asking about the progress in that situation. I hope nobody loses their job, and I really was asking about the ACA/UAL relationship--since I haven't heard much lately. If you do get bored and the weather is nice, I suggest doing what I do when I am at home---ride a bike 3-4 miles, and then work out for 1 hour--with free weights---it feels great. Good luck.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Herman Bloom]

A whole lot of folks around here at ACA have been living in a dream world. The "no more furloughs" thing was rediculous, but even more absurd was the extent to which this pilot group bought it. I guess people just need to cling to whatever good news they can wrap the hopes around. Not trying to be fatalistic here...just get ready for a bloodbath. Do the math (including the loss of the FRJ...and Delta has EVERY RIGHT to get rid of us), and it becomes fairly obvious that more furloughs will be necesary. And that"s all predicated on ACA's continued success as an independant carrier.

Sharks circling kids.

 

[Twotter76]

Speaking as one who is in that most unfortunate 50 I can say only one thing -

Just remeber that it won't be on the backs of our employees (also no more pay cuts).

 

[treetopflyer]

general,

no news here on the UAL front, but there is no deal, united has already started taking some overnights from us and is moving skywest into ord starting in oct. for some limited flying. the company's statements have indicated that unless united wants to give us our original deal with increases yearly and all that other stuff the original contract entailed then we are out.

but the new rumor is that the dojet guys will have the option of going with the planes to comair or being let go. (obviously not endorsing, just repeating)

on another note congratulations on the DAL recalls.

 

[avrodriver]

Thanks General, what would we ever do without you, you know General I'm actually a fan of your for the most part. As you've probably noticed at the regionals it seems alot of guys at the top don't really seem to worry about the guys at the bottom. For someone as high up as you are to be such an advocate for your F'd is awesome. I didn't mean to jump on you.....and I know we are all entiled to write what we want, but I honestly if an airline the size of Delta parked 32 a/c.....if it wasn't for your well thought out & and well defended " No F'd" clause, guys would be on the street. Do you really need to ask what would happen to an airline the size of ACA? But your entiled.....so I'm going to go out on a limb and say unfortunately yes guys will be F'd. Have a good weekend. AD

 

[luckydog]

General,

As everyone knows, Delta has pilots on furlough. We all are VERY aware of your personal desire to have them back flying. It's admireable, now get over it!

Just once, is it possible to post something not relating to Delta?

Lets all count how many more posts it takes before he hijacks the thread into a Comair bashfest...

 

[General Lee]

Luckydog,

No, no, I don't want this to turn into a Comair bash fest. I was really wondering about the ACA guys and if United was going to keep them or if they were going to start their own LCC. Seriously, I don't just sit here and write stuff so I can see it on the screen. I have MANY friends on furlough at DAL, AA, UAL, and I know people at ACA--and I just wanted to know the situation from the inside--from ACA guys/gals.

Avro,

No hard feelings, and I wasn't trying to slam anyone. I feel very very lucky to have been spared from a furlough (as of yet, I guess???) and hope the current furloughs from all airlines get back into cockpits. I flew for the commuters (an early '90s term--now they are definitely regionals or even larger)--and I know how it feels to be looked at and not acknowledged---by plenty of Delta guys too in the mid '90s, and I have always remembered that. (not all of them are like that) As a 727 FE I remember having to hear these cocky 727FO's say something about ASA or someone else, and I always said, "They work a lot harder than you do..." I enjoy airline aviation as a whole, and love watching planes, and getting informed on these types of internet boards. As I also told you before---I like to workout etc....but I won't get into that again. Take it easy.

Treetopflyer,

Thank you for the update. It is interesting that UAL is slowly walking away---and the Comair Dojo part is also interesting. I wonder how many will take the Comair deal? Regardless, I thank you again and wish you luck.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[WhiteCloud]

but the new rumor is that the dojet guys will have the option of going with the planes to comair or being let go. (obviously not endorsing, just repeating)

Let go?!? Where's that coming from? They're on the ACA seniority list right?

 

[Tim47SIP]

Why??

What is going on over there to cause the furloughs? I was under the impression that really nothing has changed at this point in time concerning United or Delta?

For the Delta guys. I've been talking with a couple of my corporate law buddies and asked them their view of the following (I did not mention any companies);
two companies have an agreement in writing, a contractor and main company. Later, the main company signs an agreement with a different entity placing restrictions upon the contractor. The contractor, based on his current agreement, breaks the restriction set by the main companies new agreement with that different entity. Has the contractor violated its original agreement? My freinds say no. They also insinuate that the main company could not arbitrarily change the contractors original contract without the contractors acknowledgment thus making the new restrictions void.

I do understand that the agreement was the Do Jet's only, but there were no restrictions (aircraft > 70 seats) at the time of the agreement with ACA and Delta management, as ACA may not have signed the contract knowing they would have any restriction placed upon them. I also understand that Delta did sign your contract (in 2000) that had the restrictions. So, realistically, if Delta kept ACA regardless of your PWA, could DALPA really do anything about it? If they (DALPA) went to court, would the judge rule in favor of DALPA or ACA as the contract is still binding as it was written which was prior to your PWA.

I guess the point that I am getting at is that Delta management could simply say "Hey, nothing we can do about it so sorry!"
Any thoughts?

 

[Marko Ramius]

Is it possible?

That ACA management has simply been holding onto what they feel are surplus pilots as long as possible on the hope of reaching some sort of deal with UA to retain what they currently have? I don't work there, but as far as I can tell they aren't really close to a deal for Boeings or Airbii's let alone starting training for them. Additionally w/o a UA deal the J41's go away pretty much immediately, right? The DAL FRJ issue has been well bantied about as well. All of this would seem to point to furloughs imo, could it be they haven't happened because ACA management hopes to still reach a deal and need to be prepared for it?

 

[46Driver]

I think Marko is right about the surplus pilots. Considering the fiasco we had starting ACJet and not having crews for the airplanes, my hunch is this time we had the situation reversed. We hired a bunch of new F.O.'s and promoted a bunch of F.O.'s to Captain - when we didn't get all of the new CRJ's, we were overstaffed. ACA held on as long as it could by offering voluntary furloughs to captains but finally it reached a stage that we had to furlough those new hire F.O.'s and displace those new captains.

 

[FDJ2]

Re: Why??

[QUOTEI guess the point that I am getting at is that Delta management could simply say "Hey, nothing we can do about it so sorry!"
Any thoughts? [/B][/QUOTE]

Well there actually is something DAL would have to do if ACA were to ever operate jets with greater than 70 seats. DAL would be required to let go of the ACA contract. There is a clause in the DAL-ACA contract for early termination of that contract. While I'm not sure whether or not DAL would then have to assume the DoJet leases or not, even if DAL had to, I'm sure DAL could find someone to fly them on the exact same routes they are on today.

 

[treetopflyer]

Re: Is it possible?

I don't work there, but as far as I can tell they aren't really close to a deal for Boeings or Airbii's let alone starting training for them...imo, could it be they haven't happened because ACA management hopes to still reach a deal and need to be prepared for it?

Marko,

You were correct initially, you are not qualified to make that grandios of an assumption, as far as I can tell. Since you don't work for ACA as I do, since you don't have access to our ALPA boards, or possibly have uninformed cohorts employed at ACA (or you believe what you read on this rumor board), you really wouldn't know what's going on between us and UAL.

There maybe a deal with UAL concerning our turboprop flying, but the rest is history. The furloughs are due to a myriad of schedule changes in ORD as flying is swapped between us, SKW and AWAC. There is no correlation between a possible reconcilliation between ACA and UAL and additional furloughs. That is the best answer I am qualified to give since I am not a scheduling guru, I just bid the packet and hope for the best.

Widely accepted speculation is that UAL is trying to strangle us as vindictively as possible as we gracefully exit the UAX program and make it hurt as they figure out how to unscrew themselves primarily in IAD and also ORD. There may be additional furoughs as projected staffing materialize during the gestation of Goldilocks (did that slut sleep with all three bears before or after she ate their porridge?). These furloughs may possibly be due to the transitionary period as we saw off the old ball and chain (hopefully we'll miss the femoural artery).

Also, as ALPA and MGT continue to battle it out over pay and bennies, ACA is in mid-stage talks with both Boeing and Airbus. ACA is planning to make the purchase announcement first week of November, if the itinerary holds.

My crystal ball goes fuzzy beyond that and my majic eight ball is on the charger. I really need to study for my maneuvers validation...max thrust, flaps 8, pos rate gear up, speed mode, heading, half bank, bug V2...

Tailwinds...

 

[g159av8tor]

I posted the above statements, not Treetop. Stupid cookies...

Tailwinds...

 

[dogg]

The harsh reality that fee for departure is about as profitable as dot com..... It is too bad that a whole industry was built around bad science.... There will be some serious casualties before it is over and it sounds like ACA is first in line to go down the "proverbial tube". What a great time to have your company fail, just when there are no jobs in your line of work.... See ya later blue ridgers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[House_X]

The harsh reality that fee for departure is about as profitable as dot com..... It is too bad that a whole industry was built around bad science.... There will be some serious casualties before it is over and it sounds like ACA is first in line to go down the "proverbial tube". What a great time to have your company fail, just when there are no jobs in your line of work.... See ya later blue ridgers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll take this one....

ACA's misfortunes are the result of bad luck (Dornier out of business) and UAL's demise. Bad science has nothing to do with it. Fee for departure contracts work for both parties. Problem is UAL want's a fee that' s too low. I guess it's ACA's fault that United doesn't want to pay the ACTUAL COSTS OF FLYING OUT OF ORD AND IAD. At least our management has the foresight to walk away from a bad contract. Here at ACA, we don't act like b#tches willing to work for nothing.


As far as the comment of ACA going down the "proverbial tube"....I'm sure there are many others like you who would love for ACA to fail at WHATEVER path we take. It's nice to see pilots looking out for other pilots...keep up the good work and thanks for the sympathy.

House

 

[JTrain]

HouseX - Well said!

BTW - Are there any other curious ACAers like myself wishing our ALPA would come out with some sort of statement re the rumors of D328J possible shift to CMR? The buzz is getting louder by the day - and its not our people who originate it, but the CMR types, who have heard that their co is requesting they negotiate D328J pay rates. I would suspect its only logical that ACA amd CMR would give some the opportunity to shift - ACA would benefit since they'd save an enormous retraining cost (300+ pilots) and CMR could benefit by a ready-training group of pilots.

JT

 

[Anaconda]

would you say that most, or all, of the do-jet pilots would want to come over to comair if that did happen? or are a lot of guys holding out for "goldilocks" (is that what your company calls it?)?

 

[46Driver]

Anaconda,
That's the same question I was asking myself. I think that a lot depends on if the ACA pilots come over at the bottom of the Comair list or if there is some type of integration.

As for me, I'm going to stay with ACA. Nothing against Comair, but I'll roll the dice for the chance to grow into a LCC. Also, the commute has a lot to do with it - trying to commute out of PNS is a nightmare on Delta - and I think it would be 2 legs up to CVG. If ACA serves the Gulf Coast, my commute (on our own aircraft) would make life much more pleasant.

 

[JTrain]

Anaconda -

I waffle constantly on the issue. With my DOH (mid-summer 2000) I suspect I would have the seniority to hold a jr. CA spot at CMR (could you confirm this). As it sounds right now, I'm a "senior" FO, with no prospects of upgrading for I suspect at least another 2yrs, and I need another hour of FO time like I need a bullet in my head. Nothing against being an FO - I enjoy my position and the seniority I have in my seat, but it comes to the point where professionally, I don't think I'm developing as I should be.

I believe the fundamentals of CMR as a company are much more sound than at ACA - that being said, we are seeing a lot of operational improvements so this issue is still up in the air.

Risking it with the ACA LCC would be an interesting. I think it definitely has potential - it started with quite a bang and everyone was quite enthusted, but it seems to have lost some steam. For example, I was told in recurrent that the a/c type would be selected by early Sept - its now nearly Oct and according to the Chief Pilot hotline yesterday they aren't anticipating any narrowbody transition until at least 2Q of 2004. A lot of things have to fall in place for it to succeed - ACA mgmt recognizes that and they are changing things.

If I had to make the choice right now - I would probably be 55% going to CMR, 45% staying with ACA, however there are a few other issues to consider like how seniority/DOH integration would work. I'd also have to check with some buds at CMR to get a thorough inside look at the place.

I'd be interested to hear more perspective from other ACA 328ers. I know there's a lot of people commuting out of the IAD area to both CVG and BOS who are just itching to get back to the LCC, but there's also others like myself who have settled in at other bases like BOS or CVG and enjoy the lifestyle and flying out here. In particular, a lot of our guys are settling in CVG and like the cheap cost of living - I think if given reasonable seniority they'd make the jump - of course this is entirely speculative.

Other perspectives?

JT

 

[Anaconda]

With my DOH (mid-summer 2000) I suspect I would have the seniority to hold a jr. CA spot at CMR (could you confirm this).

that's correct. you wouldn't be at the bottom, but you would be close to it...

 

[House_X]

46 & JTrain-

Unfortunately, we may never get the chance to bid the CRJ. As more people get furloughed and CA's keep getting displaced (as CRJ f/o's), we will be pushed further down the list. The F/O's in the 41's will most likely get displaced into the CRJ before 328 F/O's (out of seniority as part of current negotiations). The only way we'll get the CRJ is bump and flush...the company will avoid that at all costs. The question is how many pilots does ACA need? I say 1200. If that's that's the case, I'm getting my gold bars today.

 

[surplus1]

With my DOH (mid-summer 2000) I suspect I would have the seniority to hold a jr. CA spot at CMR (could you confirm this).

Other perspectives?
JT

JT,

This is all speculation as well, so don't bet the farm on any of it, but here are some numbers that may give you an idea. They are not "perfect" but they are reasonably close and based on our most recent published "list" (07/01/03)

You said your DOH was "mid summer" of 2000. I assumed that was June 1.

I count about 12 Captains on the CMR list with hire dates between 06/2000 and 12/2000.

Between 01/2000 and 05/2000 I count about 70 FO's (all senior to you - if you were hired in June). Going back to 1999, I count another 65 +- FO's, also senior to you. I didn't go further than that.

So roughly, there are now about 150 CMR FO's senior to you (I'm sure more if I went back further) and whether or not you could hold a left seat is somewhat doubtful.

If these airplanes did come to CMR and you guys come with them, I assume that no one would be displaced from his current position. I assume also that the seniority integration would be DOH. After that, future vacancies would be bid on seniority.

The Company would most likely want to avoid as much training as possible and would probably ask for some sort of fence to avoid the training bubble. That would present some problems due to the bypass provisions of the Comair PWA, but within reason, it is doable.

For these reasons, I don't see your rapid promotion to Captain as a result of this transition. Not with the seniority you currently have. It would take roughly 30 new airplanes to upgrade the FO's that are currently at CMR and senior to you. When or if those aiplanes will come is anybody's guess.

If Comairs' pilots don't give in to the concession request, they may never come and we might even lose some that we have now. If we do give in to concessions (which I hope we will not do) there is still no guarantee whatever that we will get even one new airplane. As long as Delta doesn't sign our PWA, we have no guaranteed flying of any kind, no matter what Comair might "promise".

This is just my opinion, but maybe it will give you some insight. Presonally I would be happy to welcome all of you with DOH seniority because I believe that is fair, but I have no idea what others think about it.

Best wishes and sorry you are having furloughs at ACA.

 

[House_X]

Also, we may not get the luxury of choosing, I heard we (328 pilots) go witht the jets if transfered. That fine with me...I can use the Delta travel card and go to Spain on my days off...

I would love to stay at ACA, but I think that decision is beyond my control.

Almost forgot...I want to thank all the people who picked up open time while our 96 guys are on the street...thanks to you, more of our brethren will be joining them.