more ACA furloughs

[sleepy]

Just wondering, why would Comair want your pilots? If they are going to give concessions to get your FRJ's, they are going to want them for themselves. Is there anything in you agreement with DCI that requires them to take your pilots, or is this just wishful thinking?

 

[46Driver]

Sleepy,
There is a part in our contract that says if a certain percentage of our fleet is sold or transferred, the pilots have the option to go with the airplanes. (What that percentage is, I can't remember.)

From a practical standpoint (especially considering how the Dornier is a maintenance pig), I think Delta would make the offer to save on training costs as well as preventing a break in service.

Just my opinion.

 

[FDJ2]

What is the basis for all this speculation that the ACA DoJets are going to CMR?

 

[sleepy]

I work for ASA and don't have a dog in this fight, and I'm not trying to start some flaming, I am just wondering, ok.

So, how would your pilots fall into the Comair seniority list? Would the ALPA merger policy apply? I think Comair put something in their last contract that would cover integration if they ever aquire an airline with 30 seat or less aircraft.

If your pilots come to Comair with DOH integration, I wouldn't think that that would be much of an incentive for the Comair pilots to take concessions in exchange for getting your aircraft. They (you) will probably end up at Chit.

Hopefully when we (if we) start hiring again, ASA will give your furloughed pilots a chance for a job.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Not so fast. ASA already has concessionary rates for a 30-39 seat aircraft and a bunch of flying that used to be operated by an airplane with similar performance.... the E120.

 

[sleepy]

Not so fast. ASA already has concessionary rates for a 30-39 seat aircraft and a bunch of flying that used to be operated by an airplane with similar performance.... the E120.

We don't have any 30-39 seat aircraft. The pay rate for the E-120 is for a turboprop aircraft, if they wanted to bring in the FRG, then a new pay rate would need to be agreed to. We are the last place they would want to put some new aircraft, they are not going to do anything while we are in contract talks. What DCI really wants to do is use the ACA FRJ's to get Comair to give concessions, so we at ASA will not be able to better your current contract. I commend the management goons on their plan, it's probably going to work.

If they can bring some ACA pilots over to Comair with DOH to stir the pot some more, then that will be gravy on their biscuit.

 

[surplus1]

Just wondering, why would Comair want your pilots? If they are going to give concessions to get your FRJ's, they are going to want them for themselves. Is there anything in you agreement with DCI that requires them to take your pilots, or is this just wishful thinking?

Sleepy, If CMR and ASA ever get together for real, I hope you would not want us (CMR) to apply your kind of thinking to the ASA group.

There is nothing in the ACA PWA that would require CMR to take ACA pilots if the DoJets should go to CMR (that part of the operation is not big enough to trigger the operative clause in the ACA contract). From a pilots' point of view, it is simply the right thing to do, assuming that they would want to come. Again from a pilots' point of view it would also be the right thing to offer them DOH integration if they chose to come. [How management sees it is unknown to me.]

There is no reason whatever, in my opinion, for Comair pilots to "want those aircraft for ourselves" and certainly no reason to give concessions to get them. The maximum benefit to current Comair pilots would be the Captain positions, at a lower pay rate, which is about 150 slots, and that would probably force some folks to charming BOS (the advantage of which is yet another opinion). The rest of the jobs (if the aircraft came without pilots) would go to new hires anyway. Again no benefit to current Comair pilots, other than getting a bit bigger airline with essentially undesirable equipment added to the fleet. No concessions for that, please.

From the Company's point of view, it is beneficial to acquire that fleet (since it is a new type) with a cadre of qualified pilots as opposed to having to train 150 CMR pilots plus 150 new hires to fly them. A turn-key operation would be far better for management and cost much less. Instead of asking us for concessions, maybe they should consider giving us a bonus to facilitate that deal.

So, how would your pilots fall into the Comair seniority list? Would the ALPA merger policy apply? I think Comair put something in their last contract that would cover integration if they ever aquire an airline with 30 seat or less aircraft.

The CMR PWA does contain a provision regarding the acquisition of another airline. As I read this speculation, ACA DoJets are not the "acquisition" of another air carrier, but only a part of one. Therfore it is not a merger, but rather the purchase of additional equipment. The CMR PWA is silent on that and makes no reference to "30-seat or less aircraft" in that context. The reference is actually to 20-seat or less aircraft, such as the Beech 1900, which does not have to operate under 121.

I really don't know how the ACA pilots would integrate, I just have the personal opinion that it should be by DOH and I hope my fellow pilots also see it that way.

As for ALPA "merger policy" we've learned that isn't worth the paper its written on. Besides, this would not be a "merger". Personally, I would not mind it being considered as a merger, but I'm sure the Executive Council in its infinite wisdom to could find a way to determine that those aircraft are not operationally integrated with Comair, even if Delta buys them through CMR.

I'm quite sure that we could sit down with the ACA leadership and work out a simple solution that is fair to them and fair to us, without all the fan fare of ALPA's political BS. To me, DOH is the obvious solution, with protections against a flush both for them and for us. Pilot-to-pilot it should not be difficult at all and it would be nice if we could establish a precedent devoid of the greed normally associated with "ALPA merger policy." I would not want to see us calling each other names and sending hate email and insults on forums, like we witnessed in the potential squabble between United and USAirways before their merger tanked, nor would I want to be part of anything like the AA pilots' rape of the TWA group. Screwing your fellow pilots just because you can, is not my idea of how we should live. I sincerely hope Comair pilots will rise above that and won't follow that tradition of stomping on the disadvantaged, IF these rumors have any substance.

If your pilots come to Comair with DOH integration, I wouldn't think that that would be much of an incentive for the Comair pilots to take concessions in exchange for getting your aircraft. They (you) will probably end up at Chit.

As I said earlier, in my opinion, there is NO logical reason for Comair pilots to take concessions in order to get the Dornier(s), with or without their pilots. If that is the way, I would much prefer to see them go to CHQ. It is not necessary for Comair pilots to pay for the company's expansion or to compensate for its problems vis a vis ACA. Airline pilots should not be "buying" growth with their pay, benefits or work rules, especially not downward growth. I for one am quite happy to let some other group do that. That is exactly why it has been the policy of the CMR MEC not to negotiate compensation for aircraft that we do not have or that are not on firm order for the Company. Buying a pig-in-a-poke is not the smartest move.

Also in my opinion, there is no logical reason why ACA should not be able to continue the operation of these aircraft under contract for Delta (if they want to), because they have problems with UAL or because they operate aircraft in their own right/LCC. That is one more BS provision of the Delta PWA that attempts to control the business of third parties with whom they have no contract. That sort of garbage was directly responsible for the creation of Freedom and the subsequent disaster for the Mesa pilots. It ought to be laughed out of existence.

I do not know the terms of the agreement between Delta and ACA, but if ACA did not agree to comply with the Delta PWA as a condition of its service contract with Delta, that clause would never stand the test of litigation. That is probably why Delta may be willing to buy them out rather than tell them to stuff it.

If Comair pilots reject concessions I doubt there will be much hiring at Comair in the future. Delta is sure to try to squeeze us by threatening to allocate the growth to whatever group chooses to prostitute itself. I hope we will be strong enough to resist that. A prostitute never gains any real benefit by affiliating with a pimp. Maybe one day we pilots will figure that out.

If all of the regional groups (pilots and managements) had the moxy to reject the unnecessary concessions foisted upon them, we would not be having to fend off more unjustified concessions today and ACA would not have to be starting a new business plan. Unfortunately, there is always someone willing to take 50 cents for a dollar's worth of work or the carrot of promised growth with no guarantees. We are our own worst enemies.

Good luck with your negotiations at ASA. I hope too that we of Comair will not do something stupid that pulls the rug out from under you all in exchange for some promise made by a shell corporation that is without the power to keep its "promises".

If Delta wants a deal, then Delta should come to the table and make one. Negotiations with a non-entity are a patent waste of time. IF Delta is willing to talk, and that's doubtful, I hope that my MEC will have the courage not to allow ALPA to prevent it again. If ALPA tries that again, somebody will have them for (not to) dinner. You can guess who that may be.

 

[DoinTime]

The CMR PWA does contain a provision regarding the acquisition of another airline. As I read this speculation, ACA DoJets are not the "acquisition" of another air carrier, but only a part of one. Therfore it is not a merger, but rather the purchase of additional equipment. The CMR PWA is silent on that and makes no reference to "30-seat or less aircraft" in that context. The reference is actually to 20-seat or less aircraft, such as the Beech 1900, which does not have to operate under 121.

I really don't know how the ACA pilots would integrate, I just have the personal opinion that it should be by DOH and I hope my fellow pilots also see it that way.

As for ALPA "merger policy" we've learned that isn't worth the paper its written on. Besides, this would not be a "merger". Personally, I would not mind it being considered as a merger, but I'm sure the Executive Council in its infinite wisdom to could find a way to determine that those aircraft are not operationally integrated with Comair, even if Delta buys them through CMR.

In ALPA's eyes it wouldn't be a merger but rather a fragmentation. Surplus was right in that the policy really isn't worth the paper its written on but here it is if it makes you feel better.

PART 2 - CARRIER FRAGMENTATION POLICY

SOURCE - Executive Board December 1971; AMENDED - Executive Board May 1986; Board 1986; Executive Board May 1990; Executive Board October 1991; Executive Board May 1992; Executive Board May 1998

A. INTERPRETATION OF CARRIER FRAGMENTATION POLICY
Issues as to interpretation of Carrier Fragmentation Policy shall be determined by the Executive Council.

B. APPLICATION OF CARRIER FRAGMENTATION POLICY
Fragmentation policy shall apply if an acquiring ALPA carrier declares an intent to acquire assets of another ALPA carrier, and the acquiring carrier agrees to employ any of the other carrier’s pilots in conjunction with the assets it acquires and to integrate transferring pilots in accordance with ALPA Merger Policy or an otherwise mutually satisfactory substitute process. In the event a carrier does not intend to employ and integrate transferring pilots in accordance with ALPA Merger Policy, or an otherwise mutually satisfactory substitute process, the President shall urge the acquiring carrier to do so.

C. IDENTIFICATION OF PILOTS TO BE TRANSFERRED
Provided that Paragraph B. above is satisfied, absent a definitive determination by the carriers concerned of how many and which pilots will transfer, questions of number and identity, of the pilots to be involved in said move shall be determined by the merger representatives using negotiation, mediation, and arbitration if necessary, in accordance with the procedures in Part 1 above, or modifications thereof approved by the Executive Council, subject to negotiation and agreement with management.

D. INTEGRATION TIMETABLE
The seniority integration process timetable shall be suspended until the carrier(s) have agreed to the number and identity of transferring pilots. The seniority integration process shall then commence using the timetables and negotiation and arbitration methods as delineated in Part 1 or other procedures approved by the Executive Council, subject to negotiation and agreement with management. For purposes of the seniority integration process, it is recommended that the merger representatives be selected from among the transferring pilots.

E. ASSESSMENT
The Executive Board interprets Article IX, Section 7C, of the Constitution and By-Laws to affirm the assessment, on a nondiscriminatory basis, of only the affected pilots who are being transferred from the airline of the assessing MEC.

F. DISPOSITION OF MERGER ASSESSMENT FUND
Monies in the Merger Assessment Fund of the MEC on the airline which transfers assets shall not be subject to Part 1, Section K, except for those monies assessed from and for the benefit of the transferring pilots. Monies remaining in any separate Merger Assessment Fund assessed from and for the benefit of the transferring pilots shall be subject to Part 1, Section K, except that the merger representatives shall designate the Merger Dispute Fund Trustees.

 

[sleepy]

Surpluse1,

What are you talking about, "my way of thinking"? I didn't say one way or the other how I feel about the whole potential thing. I was just asking questions. Always the flame?

As far as an ASA and Comair merger goes, it has already been worked out by our MECs. I have no concernes about it, because it will never happen. I hope it never does though, because I don't want anything to do with your RJDC lead pilot group. Most of our pilots feel the same way.

 

[CaptBud330]

Downgrade

JTrain says...."As it sounds right now, I'm a "senior" FO, with no prospects of upgrading for I suspect at least another 2yrs, and I need another hour of FO time like I need a bullet in my head."
I am currently working with men who have been bounced back to F/O that have 18 years seniority, were Captains for the past 10 years, and well over 5 times your current total time. In todays environment, just be glad you have a job.

 

[Herman Bloom]

OK House

I'll go pick some up right now.

Happy?

 

[g159av8tor]

ACA would not have to be starting a new business plan.

Nobody seems to know the genesis of Goldilocks. If everything went well for ACA with the Dornier 328/428 program for UAX, would the LCC still be plausible? Was the LCC always Plan "B" if things went sour with UAL as they have. Or, was the idea drummed up a decade ago by Skeen and Moore to feed off of the generous and very lucrative fee for departure program for as long as possible and save their pennies for a rainy day to start their own airline? I dunno.

Tailwinds...

 

[AirBoard]

Re: Downgrade

JTrain says...."As it sounds right now, I'm a "senior" FO, with no prospects of upgrading for I suspect at least another 2yrs, and I need another hour of FO time like I need a bullet in my head."
I am currently working with men who have been bounced back to F/O that have 18 years seniority, were Captains for the past 10 years, and well over 5 times your current total time. In todays environment, just be glad you have a job.

Capt Bud,

With all do respect to those furloghed and downgraded; JT was probably just making a statement based on HIS OWN relative circumstances.

Using your logic we should probably just shut down the boards, thank our lucky starts we have a job, and shut up. Or better yet, quit complaining about anything and be thankful we're still breathing.

It's all relative Capt. Having said that, I also could use another SIC hour in the 328 like a hole in the head.

 

[JTrain]

Thanks AirBoard - I couldn't have replied any better myself!

JT

 

[exphojump]

My understanding of the ACAI/DAL contract is that only DAL may initiate the termination of the contract with at least 180 days notice. It is ACAI's option on whether DAL must assume the leases on the FRJs.

If ACAI management believes the FRJs are necessary to the LCC they might choose to keep the leases and operate them under the LCC, especially if the NBs are hard to finance.

CONS: the FRJ is a mx nightmare(constant eng changes), hard to find parts(expensive), and three a/c types are counter productive.

PROS: it would allow access to more small markets within 400nm of IAD/free CRJs for longer routes, training events would be minimized, it would kill the need to outsource small market flying later.

We'll see the top brass's strategy, once DAL announces termination of the contract.

 

[Anti-Matter]

The harsh reality that fee for departure is about as profitable as dot com..... It is too bad that a whole industry was built around bad science.... There will be some serious casualties before it is over and it sounds like ACA is first in line to go down the "proverbial tube". What a great time to have your company fail, just when there are no jobs in your line of work.... See ya later blue ridgers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dogg, you prove the point that there are more horses' asses in the world than there are horses.

Don't bother applying for a 737 position at our successful LCC two years from now, because your callous attitude will most certainly reveal itself in the interview.

 

[46Driver]

I'll agree with exphojump - if Delta delivers an ultimatum, I expect to see ACA unload the DoJets in a heartbeat. If we have a problem gettng narrowbodies, I would expect us to lease them from somebody, Ryan?

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

For what it's worth, Comair has ask us to negotiate a 30-37 seat jet pay scale. And Butrell told some of our employees at a meeting designed as an end run around our MEC that the Do-jets had to go some where.

 

[46Driver]

afellowaviator,
Thanks for the gouge. I am curious to see how this all plays out.

 

[Below Me]

um general...... read my name plz.

THX now think about it.