Moral sinking at FLOPS

[Publishers]

Freedom is in total denial or an economic disaster for our industry. He either drinks NJW cool aide or just does not read or believe the numbers prominently reported in the industry rags.

 

[Freedom]

Interesting you list your ratings Publishers as "SMELI"

Freedom is in total denial or an economic disaster for our industry. He either drinks NJW cool aide or just does not read or believe the numbers prominently reported in the industry rags.

Cause I can SMELI a Union Buster a mile away.

Freedom is Not Free

 

[FR8DOG777]

Go away publishers this is a fractional forum

Don't worry about publishers freedom, that guy is a wanker. He would like to see all pilots work for free. We will get our nja comparable contract or we will close the doors. We have done our job professionally while one management team after another has failed to produce. If they cannot factor in our labor costs into the equation then they don't deserve to be in business. We have financed one bad management decision after another, this will be the last. We have mickey and baboo to thank for these layoffs for running off all the fractional owners and selling only jetcards. That puts us at a severe disadvantage in comparison to other fracs with the monthly management fee's. I have financed the last bad decision. My thoughts and prayers are with our unemployed bretheren this holiday season. I will go on strike when called upon to do so. These immoral pricks we work for will not be running the business on my salary.

 

[netjetwife]

You nailed it, FR8DOG! Best of luck to the underpaid Options pilots who deserve (by merit) the going rate for their professional skills. You guys and your families have subsidized the FLOPS long enough.

The economy goes in cycles; that's well recognized. All the more reason that pilots must be paid like the professionals they are. Those who earn professional wages are able to save for rainy days. Those who are given sub-par wages are hard pressed to provide the basics so the safety net that should be there often isn't. It's disgusting to me that professional pilots could be a paycheck or two from the street after they and their families gave so much to the company.

Publishers may view my opinions as "cool aid", but I assure you guys that my thoughts on your situation are far too bitter for that sugary drink. NJW

 

[Publishers]

You are right NJW -- what many in high office have called the worst fundamental economic crisis in the last 50 years worldwide is just another cycle. The complete re-evaluation of companies and real estate the nation has seen since the great depression is no reason for concern. No doubt this is all just a strategic move to delay the contract.
My only point is that a great contract is not too great if the company folds.
If Flops pilots have been subsidizing the company, well then even that has not worked.
We have had more pilots walk through trhe door seeking work in the last 60 days that in the last 3 years. There have been more aircraft emails showing up in my box selling aircraft than in the last 5 years. People who have flying jobs call saying they are concerned with their employer getting out of his aircraft.
I don't really think you are going to have to worry about subsidizing them very long if the trend does not change. As for the NJW's "going rate", it is changing like the price of one of my condo's which went down 50% in a year.

 

[netjetwife]

As to the going rate for a frac pilot, I think we should look to the other frac companies instead of your condo, Publishers. NJA/I, CS, and Flex pay more than Options and have not cut wages to my knowledge. I also think the pilots who fly for FO are in a better position to fully understand what is happening there and their mention of mistakes by management are noteworthy. I'd put not settling with the pilots at the top of the list. It's well known that labor strife has very negative consequences.

A fair contract is imperative to ensure that the pilotgroup's interests are represented--at all times. I seriously doubt that the furloughed Options pilots would have received the same stipulations that were made if not for 1108 standing up for them. Furthermore, had the Options pilots received a fair contract in 2005 that paid the industry standard they would be in far better position to deal with the economic downturn now.

The galling hypocrisy is that managers who try to deny pilots a going-rate contract that specifies what will happen if furloughs take place will make damn sure they have a Golden Parachute in their own generous contract! They can mismanage a company and then float away carefree while the pilots are left to deal with the mess and some must scramble to keep their families' finances off the rocks. That's just plain wrong!

 

[brokeflyer]

The problem in aviation is managers wanna cut out safety to improve their bottom line. It makes thier job easier. So they get paid more to do nothing. The problem in aviation is that managers want to get pilots for crap wages so it looks better on their bottom line.

We're not diggin ditches here, we are highly skilled operators and these scum bag mangers and companies are now learning the hard way. If they paid pilots the money instead of managers to jerk off on their desks all day then we wouldnt need labor unions. Unions are the direct result of scumbag managers fcking up a company.

that is undisputable.

 

[netjetwife]

Hear!! Hear!!

 

[VA Buckeye]

Got it right Brokeflyer, management gets the union it deserves.

VA Buckeye

 

[B19 Flyer]

As to the going rate for a frac pilot, I think we should look to the other frac companies instead of your condo, Publishers. NJA/I, CS, and Flex pay more than Options and have not cut wages to my knowledge. I also think the pilots who fly for FO are in a better position to fully understand what is happening there and their mention of mistakes by management are noteworthy. I'd put not settling with the pilots at the top of the list. It's well known that labor strife has very negative consequences.

A fair contract is imperative to ensure that the pilotgroup's interests are represented--at all times. I seriously doubt that the furloughed Options pilots would have received the same stipulations that were made if not for 1108 standing up for them. Furthermore, had the Options pilots received a fair contract in 2005 that paid the industry standard they would be in far better position to deal with the economic downturn now.

1108 didn't get it done.

The galling hypocrisy is that managers who try to deny pilots a going-rate contract that specifies what will happen if furloughs take place will make damn sure they have a Golden Parachute in their own generous contract! They can mismanage a company and then float away carefree while the pilots are left to deal with the mess and some must scramble to keep their families' finances off the rocks. That's just plain wrong!

NJW, by the end of next year, the NJ "industry leading contract" is going to be in question. If things go the way I predict, you might get exactly what you want, a pay level that is equal to all pilots flying fractional aircraft.

But... it's not going to happen the way you want. Pilot pay is not going to rise to NJ pay, the industry leading contract will lower itself to match the rest of the industry.

That contract NJ has is going to be in complete turmoil within a year and NJ will be asking for givebacks. Then and only then will frac pay for pilots begin to find a reasonable level within the industry.

I can assure you that FLOPS will not come up to meet NJ, but the most likely scenario is the NJ will come down to meet FLOPS.

You will get what you ask for.

 

[brokeflyer]

The problem is greedy managers that want their bottom line to look good while they go buy a new boat. THe only reason they can ask for give backs is because they are management. The pilots at NJ are similar to the battle hardend US Marine.....you can't beat a US Marine. There will NO givebacks, the company agreed to that contract, so regardless of the economic situation they will have to live by it. And that means all the cushy, lazy, useless management will have to do some work for a change.

The problem in aviation is useless management that thier sole purpose in life is to bleed the company dry. They only wanna do the minimal amount of work possible to show a decent bottom line.

If managent didn't try to butt fck us every chance, there would be no need for a labor union. I dont feel sorry for them one bit. They deserved it.

FLOPS pilots, just for the sole reason of being a buncha a$$ holes, should ask for another 25k per year because management isnt bargaining in good faith. Then go over to their house and drink all their beer.

 

[fischman]

B19,

Seriously. That was really funny.

 

[Publishers]

The problem in aviation is that it is so extremely hard to make a dollar in it. No one is saying management does not screw up but I am not sure the Flops model ever worked no matter what. There has not been a so called decent bottom line in most of these companies at all.
No doubt you all forget the companies started by pilots that crashed and burned.
The short version is that managers, good bad or indifferent, shareholders, owners, boards of directors can do what they want with the companies that the manage, share in the ownership of, own outright or have been appointed to oversee. Like in the current DHL situation, they can shut down or build up.
There is a substantive difference between NJA and Flops as well as a fundamental difference between NJA and CS or FLEX. Avantair is about the only one close to the same. XO is another different animal.
Flightexpress and American Airlines pilots both fly planes and I am sure they carry the same professional attitude to the job. They do not get paid the same. American and UPS both fly big jets, but are they in the same business. UPS does not even try to make money with the aircraft, American that is their revenue source.
Whatever should of happened in 2005 did not. This is 2008, things have changed. We will see how it works out.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Heard it before...

B19,

Seriously. That was really funny.

That's exactly what the United, Delta and American pilots said right before the concessions after they got their "industry leading contracts." :laugh:

That's what the UAW is about to go through as well as about every other labor union in the country.

I wish I could laugh with you, but it's such serious business it's hard to. The moment the furloughs begin will be the time the union will stand back and dig their heels in. The deeper they dig, the longer it will take and the deeper the cuts will be. Then the tears will come when you finally realize your union failed you by making promises it couldn't keep. :crying:

I'll be here to say, "I told you so."

 

[B19 Flyer]

The problem is greedy managers that want their bottom line to look good while they go buy a new boat. THe only reason they can ask for give backs is because they are management. The pilots at NJ are similar to the battle hardend US Marine.....you can't beat a US Marine. There will NO givebacks, the company agreed to that contract, so regardless of the economic situation they will have to live by it. And that means all the cushy, lazy, useless management will have to do some work for a change.

The problem in aviation is useless management that thier sole purpose in life is to bleed the company dry. They only wanna do the minimal amount of work possible to show a decent bottom line.

If managent didn't try to butt fck us every chance, there would be no need for a labor union. I dont feel sorry for them one bit. They deserved it.

FLOPS pilots, just for the sole reason of being a buncha a$$ holes, should ask for another 25k per year because management isnt bargaining in good faith. Then go over to their house and drink all their beer.

You NEED to ask and join your union leadership as they negotiate (they won't let you). Then you'll see where the stonewalling really is. As stated before, I've never seen a company stonewall negotiations. I have seen unions come in with numbers so high that conversations were not even possible. That's where the brick wall always begins.

 

[brokeflyer]

well what happens is that management dont stonewall DURING negotiations......they do their damange BEFORE the union is on property.......that is reason we need unions. Management continues to wreck the lives of the people who do the work. Therefore, labor unions are created to keep management in check, so they dont destroy the company.

Someday, management will consider the bigger picture and take care in the company that they work for. When the management mentality is gone the same way as small pox, then the cure of a labor union will no longer be needed. The problem is that management is more like a cancer.

Ive seen management throw out numbers so low that it's a loss for words.....then management leaves.....in their BMW.

FLOPS management failed to care of the company and the employees.

This is all undisputable.

 

[gunfyter]

Broke,

Not just drinking the Bug-Juice but...

@ NJ we have a good management.... and a good Union. We are working together.

Thats Gung Ho in Marine lingo.

 

[brokeflyer]

yeah i know, i was refering to "other" places. I didn't quite make that clear in my post.

 

[jonjuan]

Unions are the direct result of scumbag managers fcking up a company.

that is undisputable.

But wait, so your saying the union at nja is a result of scumbag management elsewhere? If not, then why haven't they come out during this economy and emphatically said "There will be no furloughs here."? Or are they keeping the door open?

 

[brokeflyer]

having a union has nothing to do with furloughs. Hopefuly we won't. We have a unique business plan, this aint the first storm we had to sit through.