Midwest Captain Writes About BUF Colgan Crash

[C-150ETOPS]

Flying is alot safer at the majors now. I remember omega, NDB approaches and monochrome radar screens and no EFIS. Flying has gotten alot easier and the majors now require lots of experience before they get hired.

Funny how the "old days" creep up and visit still today.

About a year and a half ago at my Major, I found myself in max LDW, full 767-300, performing a basic NDB circle to land approach to minimums, at an airport with a 8300' field elevation, along with TRW's, 5 approach changes in 2 minutes and a runway change to a parallel runway on base. There was no EFIS map "overlay" and the missed approach procedure would have put us nose to nose with a AF heavy. Oh I forgot, we were also bingo fuel with an alternate that had one runway that could be shut down by someone's blown tire. This isn't some "look at me, I'm Chuck Yeager" story, it's how sometimes things deteriorate and any crew gets loaded up. No matter what though, the safest thing anyone can do if they have 50 hours or 5000 hours, is learn how to say "no".

 

[Blade Runner]

GEESH! This is an age old arguement !! There is never a winner. I have seen the military vs the civillian, high time vs the low time. What it all amounts to is being safe,...no matter who you are. A former student pilot, much wiser once told me a phrase that makes lots of sense,...the rule of the 6 p's,....prior planning prevents piss poor performance.

Pete's gone now, but his rule lives on....

Amen jetflier, these arguments are old and serve no constructive purpose. What will help all of us become safer pilots is the official NTSB report when completed and the lessons learned. May the crew and PAX's RIP, AND never be used or exploited to advance one's own political agenda.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

ex-pe-ri-ence (noun)

1 a: direct observation of or participation in events as a basis of knowledge b: the fact or state of having been affected by or gained knowledge through direct observation or participation.



It's hard to argue the experience level argument when you are comparing flight hours. It's pretty cut and dry. You have to becareful when painting the whole industry with a broad brush in my opinion.

We gain experience through others mistakes, and also from our own.

Anybody, ever pull off the runway or go to their hotel at the end of the night and swear, "I'll never do that again!"?????? I have!!!!!!!!!!!!

We've all scared ourselves to death in an airplane in the past, and probaly will do it again in the future, although we try our best not to. Hopefully nobody will get hurt or killed in the process of adding to our own "experience" levels.

There will be things we will all learn from Buffalo, and take it with us on our future flights.

 

[relief tube]

I'll be honest, if I was him, I'd feel the same way about the inexperience of some regional crews....BUT I WOULDN'T VOICE IT PUBLICLY.

He shows he's uncompromisingly bitter and shows no respect for the deceased crew or the investigation that has made no conclusions yet.

Don't be mad at the regionals, be mad at the new "ultra competetive/way too many airlines/bare bones cost" industry we've had for 10 years now that gives passengers $200 round trips with no service and mainline salaries that are almost half of what they used to be.

 

[ultrarunner]

Truth of the matter is that the Colgan crew was very low time. The Capt was in his late 40's with a little over 3000 tt and about 150 in type!...

Hmmm...while he might have been low-time in type, he'd been on Colgan property for 3 and a half years. Gotta believe he had more TT than what is stated above. Now, 3k total with Colgan seems plausible.

Ultra

 

[TV9Driver]

Although I agree with most of you that he shouldn't have written this piece, I think most of you are missing his point. That being, management is largely at fault for this situation. I don't think he is blaming the airline crew, but rather the airline management for being so cheap.

As for the experience argument, there really is no right answer. Military pilots are cut loose in T-38's and other high performance aircraft with little over 200-300 hours. I've flown with military and civilian pilots, and have been impressed by and sometimes scared by both types.

No one can argue that the experience level in the regionals has dropped off significantly in recent years. Back when I was getting my start (about 14 yrs ago) you needed at least 1200tt and 200m at a very minimum - and that was to fly a B1900. Last year I was talking to a pilot who just got hired at a regional with 350TT and 25multi - to fly a regional jet! I don't blame the pilot for taking the job - I would have jumped at the chance if it were me. I blame the airline for being so cheap and paying so badly that they have to recruit pilots out of pilot school in order to fill their cockpits.

Although he showed little tact in his letter, I think we as a pilot group need to bring this "state of the industry" to the attention of the media an public. Whether or not it will help our collective situation remains to be seen. I do know that whenever it comes up in a conversation with people outside of the aviation world, they are absolutely stunned when I tell them how much (little) regional and the majority of major airline pilots make. The general public still think we make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year - not hundreds of dollars.....

 

[RSRVWINDSURFR]

I knew what he was going to say just by reading the title of this thread. The airline that has put food on his table and given him a paycheck for however many years is being parted out to a bunch of less experienced "kids" and their shiny new jets. It sucks what Midwest is doing to their pilots, and I would be irrationally pissed and resent CHQ and all large regional aircraft pilots for "taking my job" as well. He is making a valid point to the public. I'm not saying what he did was right, but I totally understand why he did this.

 

[MALSR]

There are a plethora of "mainline" airline accidents that could have been avoided by a 250 hr commercial pilot. Case in point: forgetting to set takeoff flaps.

 

[Long-Gonner]

There are a plethora of "mainline" airline accidents that could have been avoided by a 250 hr commercial pilot. Case in point: forgetting to set takeoff flaps.

3 pilots changing a light bulb......on approach

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

Like others have said, while he may lack tact, he does have a point.

Passengers not known for their grasp of what we consider "obvious". A slightly different uniform, some 6 point type on the side of an airplane or some fine print on the website are examples. If it says "Continental Connection" on the side, all they see is "Continental"...after all, the paint job is the same, right?

All they know is that they called up Continental, or went to the Continental website, booked a ticket, which they probably got in a Continental ticket jacket, and went to the Continental gates. Sure, there were SOME differences, but no more different that Pepsi and Diet Pepsi...I mean, it's all made by Pepsi, right?

Ever notice in the supermarket that the generic crap they sell is often in packaging that is remarkably similar to the good stuff?

This guy was simply point this out. I would have done it differently, but hey, at least he tried.

What is going on IS outsourcing to the lowest bidder. Ask anyone on the street "hey, would you want to fly on a plane where the pilot was the lowest bidder?". My guess is the answer would be "fkuc no".

Personally, I'd be only too tickled to see all the regionals back as commuters flying Banderanties.


Nu

 

[Fly4hire]

Ask anyone on the street "hey, would you want to fly on a plane where the pilot was the lowest bidder?". My guess is the answer would be "fkuc no".

Personally, I'd be only too tickled to see all the regionals back as commuters flying Banderanties.


Nu

Nu,

The flying public has a short memory and they will forever be drawn to the lowest ticket price.

The sad fact is in some dark, sound proof, bug swept room, airline execs have done their own Wannsee conference and crunched the numbers on how many hull losses and dead bodies they can absorb and stay in business.

The cost benefit of bodies vs. salaries still favors regional outsourcing. Not to dismiss some of the very experienced crews that are there, but they are not the majority.

I cringe every time I have to DH on a regional, and won't let my wife and kids fly on them. I have written a resolution (voted down) to allow us to turn down a DH on a regional partner.

I do try and get my mother in law on them though:bomb:

 

[ATLplt]

I can see his resentment towards Midwest management, (all airline management for that matter), but his comments were a little too out of line, too soon. This accident is fresh in everyone's mind, and pissing on the thousands of regional folks that endure flying in the crap 8 legs a day is not how I'd handle my political agendas.

It's funny how pilots seem to forget where they came from as they progress throughout their careers. I guess some were just born with 10,000hrs of jet time. Maybe we've got it all wrong...maybe low timers should go to the autopilot/autolanding jets and the "experienced elite" should fly the more challenging turboprops.

 

[FR8mastr]

We all know everyone starts somewhere, its not that simple. Maybe a pilot should gain some of that "oh $hit" experience, flying boxes, flight instructing, or doing some banner towing etc. Then when they have a thousand or two hours they go to a commuter and fly with a captain that has many thousands of hours in that left seat in addition to the thousand or two of "oh $hit" learning previously mentioned. That is the way it has always been. Even when the "I know a guy with 110 hours and is the best pilot ever" got hired at the mega airline, he/she was paired with a very seasoned left seater.
As it stands now you get the Academy graduate hired with 250 hours, upgrades as soon as he can hold an ATP and is immediately paired with the next 250 hour academy graduate. This is not smart no matter how talented said pilots are.

 

[eaglesview]

Sorry folks but the article though grossly generalized is accurate. (not the part of "knowing what happened") In my opinion it is out right fraud to sell a consumer a ticket on United Airlines (insert any legacy carrier here) and show up to find you are really flying on trans states (insert most, not all, regional carrier here.) Obviously the experience level on the legacy carrier is going to be hire for the most part. Yes I am aware there are exceptions to the rule. Also it is not just the pilots how about the experience level of the mechanics. The airlines should be required to inform the public exactly who they are buying transportation on.

PS before you spelling police jump in I know my spelling sucks.

 

[FR8mastr]

Sorry, duplicate post

 

[Fubijaakr]

3 pilots changing a light bulb......on approach

If you're referring to the EAL crash in the Everglades, they weren't "on approach". They were on extended vectors while troubleshooting their gear warning light.

You might want to read up on stuff before you post inaccuracies.

 

[Penguin46]

I can see his resentment towards Midwest management, (all airline management for that matter), but his comments were a little too out of line, too soon. This accident is fresh in everyone's mind, and pissing on the thousands of regional folks that endure flying in the crap 8 legs a day is not how I'd handle my political agendas.

It's funny how pilots seem to forget where they came from as they progress throughout their careers. I guess some were just born with 10,000hrs of jet time. Maybe we've got it all wrong...maybe low timers should go to the autopilot/autolanding jets and the "experienced elite" should fly the more challenging turboprops.

Judge slowly when assigning fault.

Airplanes/training have gotten better; so pilots don't have to be.

That means more pilots, less demand, less pay.

The upshot: my grandma could be flying a commercial jet in a few years. (and she passed several years ago)

Downside: If I go back to flying, my house will have wheels on it.

Solution: A national union embracing 19-500 pax airlines, with reasonable minimum pay regs. So substandard wages offer no competitive advantage among airlines.

 

[likeitis]

Funny how Sully says basically the same thing but no one gets bent out of shape about his comments. Those of you get offended by Scott's letter are focusing on the wrong things. I think he expected pilots would be able to see through his intent at getting the public's attention through his use of recent events. I like to think that we are bright enough to realize that the public only reacts to the sensational.

 

[MALSR]

Its an unprofessional response at an inappropriate time. Lets wait until the NTSB is finished with their investigation first of all.

 

[Propsync]

If you're referring to the EAL crash in the Everglades, they weren't "on approach". They were on extended vectors while troubleshooting their gear warning light.

You might want to read up on stuff before you post inaccuracies.

Take your own advice.

UAL, Portland, 1978, DC-8