Midwest Captain Writes About BUF Colgan Crash

[Plug]

I get the point of the letter and agree that it is poorly timed. I think this all boils down to what our industry has become today and that is the lowest common denominator. Regional, Cargo, major, etc. Whatever part of the industry you are in you see it everytime you go to training. You can probably point out pilots on the seniority list and say "WTFO, how is this person still employed?" We train to the lowest common denominator and our airlines part out routes. Take Delta. A passenger buys a ticket on Delta but could fly on any of a number of airlines. Example, while waiting to sign up for a jumpseat in EWR on DAL the passenger in front of me was asking which gate her flight to Burlington, VT was going out of. I looked at her ticket, a Delta ticket, but the flight was being flown under the CO code and operated by Expressjet. The passenger thought she bought a ticket on Delta. This is the way of the industry and that is divide and conquer while maintaining the operation with the lowest costs to keep shareholders happy. Put a$$es in the seats and get them from A to B preferrebly the same day. Hiring a young pup (no slam as I was one of them at ASA) at $19 or $20 per hour to fly 50 to 70 passengers at a time is how management roles. This is simply a by-product when you have a flight crew with less than 6000 hours combined flying a high performance, state-of-the-art airplane in to moderate icing at night which was probably the last leg of a very long day doing hub turns in EWR. That said, with all the factors and a more experienced flight crew would the outcome be different? We will never know. I do know that a lot of the decisions I make are based on past experiences. We only have 1 measuring stick for experience as airline pilots and that is flight time. So far, in the last few years, we have had a relatively inexperienced crew stall a CRJ at FL410 "having a little fun", bad judgement. We shall see what the outcome of 3407 is.

Cheers

 

[OurMoney1]

This discussion is dangerous....Fate is the hunter and and we know it can happen to anyone.

The regionals are stocked with skilled pilots in the same manner that the majors have low time pilots in their ranks too.

I think what we are seeing is opportunists who are using recent circumstances to bring issue to the attack on our QOL and payscales. Even Sully who was on the Hill to speak on the topic of safety manged to turn the topic over to pay and pension assaults. He stated he doesn't know a single professional pilot who wants to pass this profession onto their kids. Chk Yahoo news....its in there under todays topics.

The intentions here are good but the method of delivery is poor. I must say I like the message but clearly not the messenger.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Take your own advice.

UAL, Portland, 1978, DC-8

Again, if you're talking PDX, you're talking fuel exhaustion.

 

[Propsync]

Again, if you're talking PDX, you're talking fuel exhaustion.

Right. While three guys were trying to change a lightbulb, they ran out of fuel.

 

[CitationLover]

"Commander" Kaley is talking about corporate culture and management not blaming pilots. I've flown with him and he is a great guy who does speak his mind, this letter proves that. I've also flown with Eagle CA's who've had just as much time as Midwest CA's. This was not his point, but rather management going out to the lowest bidder. They are the lowest bidder because, in general, their pilots are less experienced than major carriers.

Expect more letters from Midwest Captains to the JS, I know of 4 in the pipeline.

 

[Captzaahlie]

"Commander" Kaley is talking about corporate culture and management not blaming pilots. I've flown with him and he is a great guy who does speak his mind, this letter proves that. I've also flown with Eagle CA's who've had just as much time as Midwest CA's. This was not his point, but rather management going out to the lowest bidder. They are the lowest bidder because, in general, their pilots are less experienced than major carriers.

Expect more letters from Midwest Captains to the JS, I know of 4 in the pipeline.

Are they all going to be crying "PILOT ERROR" TOO?

 

[Propsync]

I've flown with him and he is a great guy who does speak his mind, this letter proves that.

How great could he be? He skips the final report, and trounces over the dead to make his point? If the final was out and then he wrote this, and his suspicions were correct, fine. Until then, he needs to spend more time helping those that are grieving than taking a cheap shot to selfishly help himself. Another true professional.

 

[Captzaahlie]

Its an unprofessional response at an inappropriate time. Lets wait until the NTSB is finished with their investigation first of all.

My sentiments as well!
At least I'm picking on a guy who is alive....
----------------------------V--------

 

[CitationLover]

I understand the defensiveness here, but please retake Reading 101 - Comprehension and reread what Scott wrote:

I quote

...where it would appear that pilot error might be to blame.....

the definition of might:
may 1 - Past tense might (mīt)

1. To be allowed or permitted to: May I take a swim? Yes, you may.
2. Used to indicate a certain measure of likelihood or possibility: It may rain this afternoon.

he did not say the pilots were to blame. settle down. his point is against management, not saying colgan's pilots were to blame, using less experienced operators (again reading comprehension). Sully said the same thing today to Congress.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090224/ap_on_go_co/plane_splashdown_hearing

Skiles said unless federal laws are revised to improve labor-management relations "experienced crews in the cockpit will be a thing of the past." Sullenberger added that without experienced pilots "we will see negative consequences to the flying public."

 

[Captzaahlie]

I understand the defensiveness here, but please retake Reading 101 - Comprehension and reread what Scott wrote:

I quote


the definition of might:
may 1 - Past tense might (mīt)

1. To be allowed or permitted to: May I take a swim? Yes, you may.
2. Used to indicate a certain measure of likelihood or possibility: It may rain this afternoon.

he did not say the pilots were to blame. settle down.

Yeah and I "might" be misunderstanding the whole tone of his letter too....... (great sarcasm implied).

I got f'd by contract carriers in my career too but I don't go publicly slamming dead fellow pilots before their accident gets fully investigated to make a personal point. BTW I'm not even slightly unsettled just amazed at how callus some are!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callosity
A callosity is another name for callus, a piece of skin that has become thickened as a result of repeated contact and friction.
When occurring on an animal's buttocks, as with baboons, they are specifically called ischial callosities.
Otherwise the word callosity is generally reserved for describing the calluses found on the head of the three species of right whales.

 

[CitationLover]

I got f'd by contract carriers in my career too but I don't go publicly slamming dead fellow pilots before their accident gets fully investigated to make a personal point. BTW I'm not even slightly unsettled just amazed at how callus some are!

It's a free country. You can write a reply to Journal Sentinel. While Scott's message might have been delivered in the wrong way, his message is still right.

 

[Captzaahlie]

It's a free country. You can write a reply to Journal Sentinel. While Scott's message might have been delivered in the wrong way, his message is still right.

You are absolutely right...

Anyone that wants to make an

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/Baboon_buttocks.jpg

out of themselves can freely do it!


PS: I'm sure there will be replies to Scott's msg, I'll let that privilege go to one of the Colgan pilots....

 

[CitationLover]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/Baboon_buttocks.jpg

now that is funny!

 

[DH106]

I'm sorry, but "would appear" and "might" don't get him off the hook for making these statements.

Let's call a spade a spade; he believes it was pilot error.

I personally disagree with having one's "beliefs" determine the cause of a crash. It seems that facts, alone, should determine the cause.

 

[CitationLover]

I personally disagree with having one's "beliefs" determine the cause of a crash. It seems that facts, alone, should determine the cause.

the ntsb determines the cause, not someone writing a letter to the editor. most people get that. some on here evidently do not.

baba booey

 

[Captzaahlie]

now that is funny!

OK CL truce, you laughed at my funny....

I've got a freedom of speech thing going on right now
(WHICH RANG A BELL WITH ME)
concerning me passing out house for sale fliers to
people looking at the house across the street with Realtors. Yes it's a little "bogus" of me to say welcome to the neighborhood would you like a flier? Maybe not in good taste, but I don't think it's against the law.... I better stop steering this thread... WALTER IS WATCHING!

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

Anybody read the editorial in the USA Today about how the FAA has lagged behind in safety issues, particularly icing? The article even went on to say that deicing boots on the mishap aircraft needed to be turned on earlier before the ice built up-- ahhhh, I don't think that's how boots work... Anyway, leave the expert stuff to experts to determine the cause of the crash.

IMHO, the F/O was from Horizon flying Dash 8s in her previous life, wasn't she?-- she had probably more actual icing experience in the -8 than the subject Midwest pilot did...

BTW, there are a few accidents in the recent past by major carriers that ended with little or no injuries that could've been catostraphic-- Continental 737 off runway at DIA, AAL 757 off end of runway in ORD hydraulic issue but landed on short runway; before XMAS another AAL MD-80 off icy runway at ORD, a few years back an A-340 off runway in Toronto landing with gross tailwind in TSTM to name a few.

 

[deadstick]

Personally, I'd be only too tickled to see all the regionals back as commuters flying Banderanties.


Nu

I'm game! Put "regional" flying (NOT MCI-DCA) and regional aircraft back at the regional airlines. Who convinces the Jane Q. Public that the Q400 isn't a "old, low-tech" airplane from the 1960's?

 

[SoCentralRain]

Right. While three guys were trying to change a lightbulb, they ran out of fuel.

Sorry. You're not correct. The cause of the UAL DC-8 crash near PDX was caused by fuel exhaustion resulting in an off-airport landing. But it's not that simple.

The a/c ran out of fuel because the less-than-enlightened-to-CRM flight crew (specifically the F/O and F/E) failed to effectively assert themselves to the captain as to the dire state of the fuel level. FYI, the skipper of the plane was "waiting" to hear that the flight attendants had prepared the cabin for a possible gear collapse upon landing. He didn't pull his head out of his ass until the first of 4 engines flamed out.

For better, though, UAL began developing and using CLR (their version of CRM) as a result of these crew (in)actions. UAL has not suffered a single crew-caused fatality since this accident. (There but for the grace of God go I.)

Remember, our FAR's and procedures are all written in someone's blood.

SCR

 

[CitationLover]

I believe at a reunion, the CA (the united PDX one) was given an award by some of the survivors as helping them survive the crash.