Mesaba Big Announcement on Friday

[xjcsa]

OK how about this for an out-there guess:

-Mesaba gets a big batch of 70-seat jets

-Since they're "owned" (in the sense that we own all our aircraft) by Mesaba, they're maintained by Mesaba, ground-handled by Mesaba; the F/A's are Mesaba, the pilots are trained by Mesaba...but the pilots are NWA mainline pilots, provided by NWA to Mesaba on contract.

-As payback to the Mesaba pilots, they implement a "flow-through" program for our pilots to NW.

Result: The operating costs of a regional, and the NWA pilots get their way.

Just a brainstorm from a spoke-station grunt... (if it actually happens this way, just remember you heard it here first)

 

[avrodriverj85]

From the MSA ALPA homepage posted at 5:45 pm:

Item 5: Your MEC was called into special session last Sunday, February 27th. Due to confidentiality agreements executed between ALPA and Mesaba management, we cannot divulge the reason for the meeting or any details about this weekâs events. Your MEC will have detailed communications forthcoming as we are able. There has been rumor and speculation on the flight line, at Mesaba, and even in outside public forums. Please remain patient.

---- What Tom Wychor is really saying here is, "hey I'm in charge, I'll let you know what's going on when I feel like it, or when Daddy Duane gives me permission ".

Wychor is NOT going to come out and tell you the truth and he does not have our best interest at heart. He's locked in his little ALPA world and is only focused on how he can get ahead politically within ALPA.

My bet is that NWA proposes to the NWA pilot group they give up retirement in favor of scope. But, I just dont see NWA pilots and there egos flying an airplane, that 3 years ago was called a regional jet; wouldn't that make them regional pilots? Oh wait, ALPA calls them small jets now - so that's justifiable.

Guys wake up - if any other regional gets new NWA flying, it'll be CHQ - because of the history that they have with Bedford and his subsidiary Republic.

 

[CWASaab]

OK how about this for an out-there guess:

-Mesaba gets a big batch of 70-seat jets

-...but the pilots are NWA mainline pilots, provided by NWA to Mesaba on contract.

-As payback to the Mesaba pilots, they implement a "flow-through" program for our pilots to NW.

Result: The operating costs of a regional, and the NWA pilots get their way.

I think this would violate the Mesaba Pilots' Holding Company Scope Letter (All Aircraft over 19 seats operated by any of the airlines under the holding company must be crewed by Mesaba Airlines seniority list pilots)

I don't have the language with me so it may be slightly different, but that is the intent.

 

[anavrofo]

I "think" the NWA 70 deal is complete. XJ and the Unoin are in talks over a 70+ seat pay, being that there is not one in the contract.
The 70+ includes the Avro now at 85 seats.

 

[Inconceivable]

avrodriver--

I thought that the relationship with BB and NWA was a bad one?

Also, what can Wychor gain in ALPA? He still works at Mesaba and needs to be re-elected in a coupe years--seems like if every one is unhappy with him that he could find himself back on the line...

 

[Ace McCoy]

I "think" the NWA 70 deal is complete. XJ and the Unoin are in talks over a 70+ seat pay, being that there is not one in the contract.
The 70+ includes the Avro now at 85 seats.

That is the exact scenario I was expecting.

So if it's true...You heard it here second!

 

[avrodriverj85]

I've also heard that rumor about NWA and Bedford having a bad relationship when he left XJ or was "asked to leave". But money is money, and he knows how to make it. Besides Checchi is leaving NWA and they have a different management team over there that wasn't around when Bedford was running things at XJ.

As for Wychor, he runs and gets re-elected ONLY because no one runs against him. For example, with his latest re-election to EVP at the BOD last year - he only won because the guy running against him dropped out. (Mesa MEC Chair) But the way Wychor tells it, he was re-elected unanimously. He hates rivalry, and can't handle adversity. Would make a great used-car salesman some day.

 

[T-handle]

If/when there is a 70+ seat scale, I wonder what the FO scale is like.....


Unleash the GOLDEN CARROT! It will just be another Captain vs. FO vote and we all know how that's gonna go down.

 

[xjlifer]

The reason no one runs against Tom is very evident when one reads forums like this. I would never want his job and most would not want it either.

 

[Guitarman]

This is an interesting thread. As a furloughed NWA pilot I am very concerned with all the rumors and breakdown of any "New" flying. Our scope is very good, though not iron-clad, as evidenced by the 44 seat jets. We are very much in tune with the 70 seat issue, and the overwhelming majority of NWA pilots have voiced their opinion to NWA Alpa that anything over 50 seats remains under mainline.

There is discussion with the company over converting our DB pension to a DC plan, requiring less cash from the company at this time. In the long run it could bite them, but for now that is the company's wishes. Our MEC is in discussions with management about the 70 seat issue, but they are two, totally separate negotiations. There is no link between one or the other, according to our reps.

So, what is going to happen? Who knows. I don't think the 70 seat flying is negotiable. Our union has been told it is the third rail for our pilot group, and would never pass memrat. Possible flow-through? I, and many other at NWA believe that flowthrough is a good idea. It would cause some short term headaches, but long term it would benefit everyone. We tried to pursue it about 10 years ago and was told that the Mesaba MEC was against it.

I think the constant whipsawing of one pilot group against the other is a detriment to the long term viability of the profession. Do any of the pilots at XJ, MAIR, or any other regional really want to remain there for life, or do you someday want to fly the whale or something beyond 70 seats? The constant attacks bring down all groups, and lower the pay and benefits everyone will receive.

A perfect example is Waylon's post earlier. He is "willing to fly them for less", and will be happy because he is screwing guys like me. That is a great attitude. Just wait until some UND grad comes to the door and says he'll fly them for less than Waylon. Then what? Waylon is advocating taking jobs from mainline by lowballing the company on pay and benefits. Great. 80 years of union progress undone by one shortsighted pilot.

What if I advocated the opposite? Maybe NWA MEC should advocate taking all red tail flying back to the mainline. We can negotiate a "B" scale for the smaller aircraft and forgo pension credit in exchange for terminating all SJ provider contracts. If we did that you would be up in arms about how we are trying to ruin your jobs, put you out of work, etc. How is that different from what Waylon is advocating? A short sighted attitude like that will undo everthing that makes this profession worthwhile.

I don't know what will happen, but we need to keep in mind that the management of both our airline's would love to pit us against one another, and then decrease the quality of both our careers. Let's at least try to be professionals, and remember there are long term consequences for each of these decisions.

JB

 

[DoinTime]

Whatever is happening, NWA wants the remaining 44-seat orders to go to Mesaba. I'm not sure how many this is, when, or why. Keep in mind this also explains why the NWA MEC is not involved. It doesn't concern them.

Well, there will be 10 CRJ's left when Pinnacle receives their deliveries per our service contract with NW. Something more feasible would be Mesaba's purchase of Chicago Express, transfer the remaining Saabs to the Mesaba operation and putting the CRJ on that certificate. Then they could get in on the additional 40 50-seaters that may become available.

Possible flow-through? I, and many other at NWA believe that flowthrough is a good idea. It would cause some short term headaches, but long term it would benefit everyone. We tried to pursue it about 10 years ago and was told that the Mesaba MEC was against it.

That P.O.S. our mainline brothers offered years ago was not a flow thru. Offering a minority of INTERVIEW positions in exchange for flowback was an insult to the pilots of both Mesaba and Express I. Now that the devastating effects of a flowback are known (Eagle, CoEx) that portion of an agreement will never be back on the table. Any kind of flow thru in the future will have to bought and paid for solely by the mainline pilot group. Somehow I don't see that happening.

 

[needsumluv]

Well said Doin' time

 

[Waylon]

I will admit it, on my post that I went postal on, which is now taken off, was out of line. I didn't like the fact that NuGuy had an attitude saying xj will get nothing until mainline says we get it. I am smart enough to realize that the scope clause in NWA pilots contract states just that. Who knows what our MEC is talking about? Maybe we were sold?

 

[Guitarman]

Flowthrough bought and paid for by the mainline? You do realize that NWA owns all the aircraft you fly, has all the reservation systems, collects all revenue, and pays your company a fee for departure? Your company could never stand on its own, as evidenced by IAir. I don't want to pit one pilot group against another, but you have more to lose than we do. Someday you will be interviewing at a Major, and then you will see why it makes no sense to try to undermine the quality of the profession. I am a 35 year old pilot with 4 years of DOH, and 3 years credit at NWA. I am not worried about my future, because unless NWA completely folds I will fly the whale. I think it is in the best interests of everyone to have good relations between all pilot groups. It would not be very difficult for NWA to terminate their contracts with your company and subcontract with another. In fact, NWA Alpa gave management permission to award feeder flying to an outside company in our bridge agreement. This is because the company wanted it, and I don't think they are doing this to enhance your job security. They will pit one regional against another to try to get you to accept lower pay and benefits. It is the Wal Mart-ing of the airline industry. I have no desire to see your job prospects diminish, and I wouldn't personally utilize any flow-back or flow through. I am still an Air Force Reserve pilot, and will continue to fly here until I return to NWA. I have no desire to flow back, but I know in the long run it will enhance the conditions of both pilot groups. Why you insist on making this an us vs. them arrangement is beyond me. Do you ever want to fly anything beyond the RJ? Can you see that by lowering the bar at the majors you are hurting your own future in the industry? The growth is coming, and everyone says it will be in the widebody sector. I may be wrong, but I don't see widebody's at a regional any time soon. JMO though, which isn't worth much. JB

 

[needsumluv]

Guitarman your understanding of this industry is truly amazing.

Dointime said if a flow through were to happen only NWA mainline pilots could get it pushed through. This is true. We at the regional level have no leverage negotiating this in any regard. He also said this flow through isn't going to happening because nothing is in it for mainline pilots. Also true, unless you want a j4j then things might change.

"NWA Alpa gave management permission to award feeder flying to an outside company in our bridge agreement"-Guitarman

Yes, your brilliant MEC said another regional other than Mesaba or 9E can fly 50 seaters - well some of us are betting mesaba will just fly them anyway on another certificate.

Were just speculating so take a pill and go back to your tough and extremly lucrative Guard bumming down in Grissom.

I'm very happy and proud you will be captain on the 747.

Thanks for pointing out mainline sells all the tickets and we won't get any 747 I never realized this.

 

[DoinTime]

Flowthrough bought and paid for by the mainline? You do realize that NWA owns all the aircraft you fly, has all the reservation systems, collects all revenue, and pays your company a fee for departure? Your company could never stand on its own, as evidenced by IAir. I don't want to pit one pilot group against another, but you have more to lose than we do. Someday you will be interviewing at a Major, and then you will see why it makes no sense to try to undermine the quality of the profession. I am a 35 year old pilot with 4 years of DOH, and 3 years credit at NWA. I am not worried about my future, because unless NWA completely folds I will fly the whale. I think it is in the best interests of everyone to have good relations between all pilot groups. It would not be very difficult for NWA to terminate their contracts with your company and subcontract with another. In fact, NWA Alpa gave management permission to award feeder flying to an outside company in our bridge agreement. This is because the company wanted it, and I don't think they are doing this to enhance your job security. They will pit one regional against another to try to get you to accept lower pay and benefits. It is the Wal Mart-ing of the airline industry. I have no desire to see your job prospects diminish, and I wouldn't personally utilize any flow-back or flow through. I am still an Air Force Reserve pilot, and will continue to fly here until I return to NWA. I have no desire to flow back, but I know in the long run it will enhance the conditions of both pilot groups. Why you insist on making this an us vs. them arrangement is beyond me. Do you ever want to fly anything beyond the RJ? Can you see that by lowering the bar at the majors you are hurting your own future in the industry? The growth is coming, and everyone says it will be in the widebody sector. I may be wrong, but I don't see widebody's at a regional any time soon. JMO though, which isn't worth much. JB

Guitarguy.....judging by your background you have ZERO credibility in telling me how things have been, how they currently are, and how they will be. Your one year of sitting sideways in the back of a 727 making sure the captain has a hot cup of coffee does not impress me, nor do your proclamations of flying the whale. Unlike you I am not wrapped up in the notion that what I do defines who I am. Who I am defines what I do.

You know precious little about this industry and I would recommend that you stick to your empty airplanes until you've had a chance to mature.

 

[Guitarman]

Needsumluv, you sound like you really do need some love. Once again, I will reiterate that I think a flowthrough would be good for all, especially the regional pilots. You would receive a line number at NWA, and would have the peace of mind that comes with knowing your future is solid. Since you seem to be a fan of SWA, why do you think it is that they don't use any feeder airlines? It is because they can do it cheaper themselves.

Michael Boyd, who publishes the Boyd report, has stated many times that the current SJ arrangements don't work. The costs are too high, and the CASM exceeds that for the mainline DC-9. That is why the company wants to get an arrangement on a 70 seater. They know the 44 and 50 seaters aren't profitable. A 70 seater may be depending on the cost. Crew costs are a very small part of the equation. Look at UAL and U, their pilots are almost working for free, and yet they still can't make money. It is due to the absence of a business plan, and the large numbers of RJ's operated at both carriers aren't helping them return to profitability.

Mainline ALPA knows that the rank and file won't memrat any deal giving up the 70 seat flying unless it were to come with a whole lot of improvements to other parts of the contract. We have already looked at flying them ourselves at a lower rate than the Diesel, and it appears to have support. I don't really know what is going to happen, but I don't think the company's request to bring in another regional bodes well for anyone. If you are so aware of the workings of the system, then you should know that you are only hurting yourself by bringing down the mainline.

BTW, I am not in the Grissom unit, though it is a great unit and I have lots of friends there. I am glad you understand that it is "Tough" duty, but since I don't remember seeing you in the desert for 200 days a year, I doubt you really understand. J

 

[NuGuy]

Guitarman,

Don't take it so hard. From his profile, it looks like needsum bought an expensive dress, but no one invited him to the party.

Nu

 

[needsumluv]

Well Guitar I agree with most of what you said except how are we bringing down mainline?

You need to stop thinking of us as the enemy - the enemy is SWA, JTblu, AirTran and others. Your so worried about your pensions, keeping scope and not losing your pay that these companies will pass you standing with your thumb up your rear. I mean your company has 7 billion in debt and 4 billion in pension obligations and your losing money at the rate of a million a day, give or take a few 100,000 and you still think your company can sustain 2.5 times the pay rate of jet blue(if you include your benefits).

Yes RJ have a very high CASM but they also have a high RASM and right now the way the hub and spoke system works NWA would be out of business with out regional feed.

You need to think of NWA as one big team including 9E and XJ. The person who can do the job most efficient should get the job. In that regard XJ and 9E should fly the 90 and 70 and 50 seaters.

WE have guys out on the street, like you, we need to find a way to get them back to work with a J4J deal or something. Of course this is easy for me to say because we would directly benefit from this but in my mind it is the only logical thing to do if you want the company to survive the next 15 years.

I have spent my fare share deployed so you can put away your violin.

 

[Guitarman]

Now I am really confused. I started my post by saying I though we should all think of each other as professionals, and that a flow through would be beneficial. I don't think of you as the enemy, but I think the attitude that was espoused earlier in the thread about the regionals taking the 70 seat flying and doing it cheaper brings down the profession.

Do we want to start a bidding war over who will take less for the privelige of flying a red tailed aircraft? You are a professional with unique skills and abilities, as am I. You should be compensated for these skills, and not let the companies try to treat us like fast-food employees. It took a lot of training and years of experience to be able to safely operate these aircraft. We shouldn't cheapen ourselves by helping management trivialize our role in the industry.

My previous post about widebody progression wasn't meant to say "I'm better than you". It was only meant to illustrate that I don't see a flowthrough benefitting me personally. I do think it will benefit the profession as a whole. Just because my experience is different from yours, or DoinTime's, does that mean I have nothing to bring to a discussion? Approximately 55% of the majors are still made up of pilots with a military background. We could argue all day long about who has flown what, or who has been over the pond, or any other measure that would make you feel that I have some "credibility". At the end of the day your opinion of me, and my opinion of you will have zero impact on the situation.

I thought that this place was a forum for discussion of all points of view, and that another viewpoint and information would be welcome. I see that perhaps I was wrong. JB