Looks Like 1500 Hours May Become the New Hiring Minimum Among Other Things:

[AC560]

...says the best damn burger flipper in all Genessee County.

Which with overtime puts me ahead in terms of salary to most of the people on this thread and I get all the free cheese fries I can eat.

 

[Flyprdu]

Which with overtime puts me ahead in terms of salary to most of the people on this thread and I get all the free cheese fries I can eat.

Touche.

 

[deadstick]

It's all about the numbers.

Management's default response to proposals is that it cost too much, or the margin isn't there, or...

I agree with some of the concepts that AC560, and yes, yip, have put out here. With Orbitz, priceline, and travelcity, a $5 difference in fare can be the difference. Those sites don't list services included in the price (or crew qualifications), just the bottom line. Midwest sited these internet clearing houses as a reason their business fell off. People (not from the MKE area) who were looking online for a ticket from A to B, saw a cheaper fare (by $20-40) and didn't have a clue about the meals (from back in the day) or the Signature seating. They just saw the $$$. I personally think that was Midwest's fault for not doing more advertising, but that is just me.

BUT, the American consumer has his/her breaking point. Just look at fuel sales when gas was $5/gal. People stopped driving. If we lose too much capacity (several companies going Ch7) and prices increase too much, demand will decline with supply.

SO, even if pilot pay accounts for 5%, but you have to hire 20% more pilots to comply with the new rules, then that cost just went up to 6% (lumping new hire training cost w/pay since they'd all be 1yr scale).

The problem I have with the managements' claims is that the accounting practices seem to mirroe Arthur Anderson's Enron operation. The flexibility to take various write-downs (at will it seems) appears to give them the leverage to manipulate the numbers. The company can appear profitable or weak at will. It's some freaky smoke-n-mirrors, voodoo bookkeeping.

 

[pilotyip]

Not the point

It's all about the numbers.
I agree with some of the concepts that AC560, and yes, yip, have put out here. With Orbitz, priceline, and travelcity, a $5 difference in fare can be the difference. Those sites don't list services included in the price (or crew qualifications), just the bottom line. Midwest sited these internet clearing houses as a reason their business fell off. People (not from the MKE area) who were looking online for a ticket from A to B, saw a cheaper fare (by $20-40) and didn't have a clue about the meals (from back in the day) or the Signature seating. They just saw the $$$. I personally think that was Midwest's fault for not doing more advertising, but that is just me.

Thank You, you have recognized the bigger picture outside the cockpit.

Safety cost money. Who is going to pay for it? Who should pay for it?

It is not about safety, the consumer experiences the most dangerous part of his trip driving to the airport. The consumer sees one thing, how much does it cost, everything else counts for little to the middle income airline ticket purchaser. It is not management, pilots, safetry, regulation. It is the the middle income airline ticket purchase, the person buying the ticket that drives the entiore airline industry. You to deal with that reality.

 

[ualdriver]

The paradigm is for you to change. Though looking at 90% of the threads on the first page of the majors forums it is pretty obvious that you guys couldn't organize a bake sale let alone a revolution in labor.

Wow, another ALPA basher with a cute little phrase that probably doesn't have a clue what ALPA has done, continues to do, and will do for airline pilots. It's not ALPA's fault that this industry operates on narrow profit margins, is highly, highly cyclical, highly regulated with an antilabor tilt, and suffers and continues to suffer from a huge oversupply of pilots. No matter what union an industry like that has, bad things are going to happen to pilots- and have. To make the implication that ALPA is poorly organized largely because of the conditions that exist outside of ALPA's control makes me wonder about your "specialness" implied in the next statement.

I speak from the luxury of being a trained professional who is highly desired and compensated in my field for my ability to achieve results. You speak as somebody whose only worth is his seniority number.

We both chose what we would be judged on.

Again, lame. What is it AC560, that you do that makes you so special? Please tell us. If you're still a pilot, what a cheap shot to disparage a fellow pilot implying that he's only worth his seniority number. Every airline pilot in the industry is tied to a seniority number, union or non-union, and if you choose to work in the airline industry, that's what your stuck with. Airline industry pilots jobs were some of the most sought after and competitive jobs one could obtain, and most of us see that in the quality of the people we work with. To imply that he or anyone else is using a seniority number to hide from our inabilities to do anything else......give me a break.

Thank You, you have recognized the bigger picture outside the cockpit.

It is not about safety, the consumer experiences the most dangerous part of his trip driving to the airport. The consumer sees one thing, how much does it cost, everything else counts for little to the middle income airline ticket purchaser. It is not management, pilots, safetry, regulation. It is the the middle income airline ticket purchase, the person buying the ticket that drives the entiore airline industry. You to deal with that reality.

Actually, you illustrate how clueless the typical airline passenger is, and I agree with you. All the more reason they need regulations like this one to protect themselves from the downward spiral in the industry they're creating, without even knowing it.

 

[AC560]

Management's default response to proposals is that it cost too much, or the margin isn't there, or...

And this is where labor collapses in most companies. What are you doing to push these ideas with management to make the company more successful? Are you trying to get pilots onto the Board, into management? Labor has to become part of the solution and not the problem. Use your leverage to negotiate a say in the running of the company as opposed to give me a 3% raise.

saw a cheaper fare (by $20-40) and didn't have a clue about the meals (from back in the day) or the Signature seating. They just saw the $$$. I personally think that was Midwest's fault for not doing more advertising, but that is just me.

Absolutely and as an extensive business traveler I have commented on several threads that I would be willing to pay professional and personally a small additional amount for little perks. I used to travel a lot on Southwest because the flight attendants had great attitudes, the pilots would talk to people in the lounge, etc. Today most of my travels are on AA primarily due to frequent flier miles but the reason for the initial switch was at one time they had the bigger seating in the cabin (now since gone). I switched from UA to AA because of that.

As a company in a competitive industry you have to differentiate. I work in shipping which has in most major markets over 400 competitors. Even in airfreight where DHL (talking heavy weight) is the biggest player they have less then 10% market share. We can't all compete on price alone. We have to compete on price, service, technology, locations, etc. I look at UA/AA/DL/NW and see zero difference. I fly Virgin Upper Deck I see a big difference at least at the front of the bus (likewise on BA). Business/First Internationally on the US legacy carriers is a joke and where I can I book with AA on a CX flight so I get the miles and the CX service.

But it gets back to again what is labor doing to correct this? You guys spend your time arguing about how flight attendants are mean to you and you have no Captains authority and how your crew meal sucks. All you do is cling on to what you have in the hopes you make it to retirement. All you are is a big part of the problem and not the solution.

The problem I have with the managements' claims is that the accounting practices seem to mirror Arthur Anderson's Enron operation. The flexibility to take various write-downs (at will it seems) appears to give them the leverage to manipulate the numbers. The company can appear profitable or weak at will. It's some freaky smoke-n-mirrors, voodoo bookkeeping.

Welcome to every other business in the world, airlines aren't any different. Why doesn't ALPA have accountants who can craft a profit sharing scheme which takes financial trickery into account? Better yet why doesn't ALPA sit on the board? Again you guys need to look in the mirror instead of sitting around all day crying woes me, I hope Obama saves me.

 

[pilotyip]

Wow!

Actually, you illustrate how clueless the typical airline passenger is, and I agree with you. All the more reason they need regulations like this one to protect themselves from the downward spiral in the industry they're creating, without even knowing it.

Wow, you agree with me? I am a former ALPA member, airline went out of business in the early 80's. In the beginning ALPA did great things for the airline career, but there is limit to what a union can do when the comsumer dictates how much revenue will come into an airline. There is no easy solution that makes things better without punishing someone. For all the pilots who want hirer pay, there are two ways to go about it. #1 withhold your services until you get the pay you want. This can also be done in your place of work to force management into higher pay rates. This is the same method used by the Comair, UAL, NWA, and DAL pilots in the late 90’s. Those were great victories for the pilot work force, hjowever there is the UAW downside of fewer jobs and possible company BK. #2 raise money in the capital markets, start your own airline, and pay the pilots whatever they think is fair for their services, and pay management no more than the average pilot's pay. Pitfalls with #1, there may be unemployed pilots who are desperate to feed their families and make house payments. These pilots may work at a lower wages than you would like. Pitfall with #2, are pilots willing to risk their own money in starting an airline? Unions can not make silk purse out of a pig's ear.

 

[ualdriver]

Wow, you agree with me? I am a former ALPA member, airline went out of business in the early 80's. In the beginning ALPA did great things for the airline career, but there is limit to what a union can do when the comsumer dictates how much revenue will come into an airline.

ALPA still does great things for the airline career, it's just that pilots don't pay attention. They don't go to union meetings, they don't ask questions, they don't read their expensive magazine subscription, and they rely on getting most of their information from forums such as these and their best friend's cousin's brother who is the CEO's neighbor.

Why are you surprised that I agree with that part of your argument? I've stated repeatedly that market forces are far more powerful than ANY union. That's why pilot compensation continues to slide. I don't care who your union is, when there is a large oversupply of pilots saturating the industry, it's very easy for a JetBlue, an Allegiant, a Virgin America, a Skybus, etc., to come in and massively undercut your professional wages until some sort of equilibrium is reached. It's ALPA's job to slow that slide (and that's all they can do is slow it- not stop it), and in my opinion that what's they have done and have been relatively successful in doing so.

Back on topic.......now bumping airline pilots up to 1500 hrs. is going to alter that supply and demand equation and it should take care of at least two or three problems that we as organized labor have. However, as I stated the day after the legislation came out, in my opinion, I doubt the ATP requirement is going to stick. After listening to the testimony and reading what Babbitt had to say, I bet some sort of special training programs and/or mentoring programs come into play for low time guys instead. We'll see.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I speak from the luxury of being a trained professional who is highly desired and compensated in my field for my ability to achieve results. You speak as somebody whose only worth is his seniority number.

We both chose what we would be judged on.

It suggests that you are a corporate pilot..... or a well endowned porn star..... regardless, good luck.... an hick ups in your solid career should be easy to recover from.....

Which with overtime puts me ahead in terms of salary to most of the people on this thread and I get all the free cheese fries I can eat.

and yet here you are....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Thank You, you have recognized the bigger picture outside the cockpit.


It is not about safety, the consumer experiences the most dangerous part of his trip driving to the airport. The consumer sees one thing, how much does it cost, everything else counts for little to the middle income airline ticket purchaser. It is not management, pilots, safetry, regulation. It is the the middle income airline ticket purchase, the person buying the ticket that drives the entiore airline industry. You to deal with that reality.

No it is even bigger than that.... it is what we value as a culture in this nation as a group of citizen consumers....

We sell each other out for good deals...cheap goods from China and cheap airline tickets online.... yet we don't know how to function as a collective group to do what is best for all of us...

$99 transcon fares don't allow for profit or safety... it doesn't work...

Like the pilot profession to the medical profession and doctors. Do we really want doctors to vacate communities because mal practice insurance is too high? Is that what the people in those communities want? Probably not, but those people don't get to decide. Others decided for them, that they won't have doctors...

Your example of the ride to the airport is more dangerous is rediculous... then you blather on about the consumer.... but when the consumer gets screwed either financially or mortally, then the consumer or his kin run to the govt for legislation. Now, who gets to decide on the legislation? The interest groups in DC.....

We are a reactionay culture... we can't proactivey decide together what we want... we have to wait for the pain of the status quo to be so great that the belief that the change will be better in order to motivate us... and then elite groups actually make the changes in DC.


This is a major flaw in our country and culture and it all starts with each of us not playing the blame game...