• NC Software is having a Black Friday Sale Event thru December 4th on Logbook Pro, APDL - Airline Pilot Logbook, Cirrus Elite Binders, and more. Use coupon code BF2020 at checkout to redeem 15% off your purchase. Click here to shop now.
  • NC Software is proud to announce the release of APDL - Airline Pilot Logbook version 10.0. Click here to view APDL on the Apple App store and install now.

Looks Like 1500 Hours May Become the New Hiring Minimum Among Other Things:

Sedona16

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 5, 2001
Posts
564
Total Time
10,400
Congress to toughen airline standardsPosted 1h 17m ago​


By Alan Levin, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON — Safety standards for airlines and pilots would be dramatically toughened in legislation scheduled to be introduced Wednesday in Congress.
Prompted by the crash last February near Buffalo that has raised questions about pilot qualifications, training and fatigue, the "Airline Safety and Pilot Training Improvement Act of 2009" aims to find the most successful safety programs and mandate them for all airlines, said Rep. Jerry Costello, D-Ill., chairman of the House Aviation Subcommittee.
MORE:NTSB plan aims to shield planes from bird risks

The bill would add tough new certification requirements for entry-level commercial pilots, require additional emergency training, improve availability of pilot records and mandate stricter rules to minimize pilot fatigue.
"Our bill is a serious effort to consolidate what we know industry-wide about aviation safety to improve safety performance going forward," Costello said in a statement.
FIND MORE STORIES IN: Federal Aviation Administration | National Transportation Safety Board | Air Transport Association
The bill would:

Require that all airline pilots obtain an Airline Transport Pilot license, which is currently only needed by captains. Pilots must have a minimum of 1,500 flight hours to obtain the license. Co-pilots may now be hired at airlines with as little as about 200 hours, though most begin airline work with more experience. This is good for all active pilots. Its that whole supply and demand thing and this gives a couple points to the pilots in that battle.


• Mandate that the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) within 90 days set up a new database of pilot records so that airlines will have access to more information before they hire someone for the cockpit. The captain of the jet that crashed near Buffalo had failed several FAA-mandated tests of his piloting skills, but his airline did not know about all of them when it hired him.


• Direct the FAA within one year to rewrite the rules for how long pilots can work. Several attempts to rewrite the rules to make piloting less prone to fatigue have failed in recent decades. FAA Administrator Randy Babbitt also has vowed to update the rules.

• Require airlines and travel websites when they sell tickets to disclose the name of the carrier operating the flight. About half of all flights are operated by regional airlines working under contract to major carriers, but those regionals almost never sell tickets directly to passengers. Most of the regional flights are flown with the name of the major carrier painted on their aircraft. Delta and the rest of the gang who have been pushing for so called "seamless code sharing" aka farming to the regionals probably wont like this one. Maybe with the negative perception of regionals right now this will further influence the powers that be to bring more flying back to mainline. Well its a nice thought anyway.

• Set up numerous studies and task forces to examine how best to train pilots, minimize pilot fatigue and run a safe airline.

The Air Transport Association, which represents large carriers, issued a statement saying that it would prefer that current efforts to improve safety begun earlier this year by Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood be allowed to work before Congress passes legislation.
"We believe in that process, and we believe it should be allowed to proceed to a successful conclusion," said ATA President James May.
HA HA anybody surprised by this?


The crash Feb. 12 of a Colgan Air turboprop, which killed 50 people, has raised numerous safety issues. A National Transportation Safety Board investigation has found that neither pilot may have gotten a full night's sleep. The pilots also reacted improperly to an emergency, raising questions about how well they were trained.








You might be interested in:
 
Last edited:

brokeflyer

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 12, 2005
Posts
2,374
Total Time
1501
this is stupid because no one is hiring. Go back and fire everyone with less 1500 hours.....

another waste of money making a law that will do nothing.
 

johnsonrod

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 25, 2006
Posts
4,218
Total Time
8000+
Oooh no, what is Gulfstream Academy down in Ft. Lickerdale gonna do? It's about time....
 

DrewBlows

Go Tigers!
Joined
Jun 25, 2003
Posts
2,031
Total Time
4500
this is stupid because no one is hiring. Go back and fire everyone with less 1500 hours.....

another waste of money making a law that will do nothing.

There will be hiring when the new rest rules take effect.
 

DrewBlows

Go Tigers!
Joined
Jun 25, 2003
Posts
2,031
Total Time
4500
• Require airlines and travel websites when they sell tickets to disclose the name of the carrier operating the flight. About half of all flights are operated by regional airlines working under contract to major carriers, but those regionals almost never sell tickets directly to passengers. Most of the regional flights are flown with the name of the major carrier painted on their aircraft.

I'd have gone a step further and requir airlines to operate under their own name. No more "Connection" or "Express" unless that is the name of the airline.
 

BeachBummer

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Posts
997
Total Time
.71yrs
There will be hiring when the new rest rules take effect.


I think that there will be alot of that going around. Then plan on alot of JA flying when they can't fill seats at the regional level! Love this industry
 

dougdrvr

Well-known member
Joined
May 28, 2009
Posts
270
Total Time
34000
I'd have gone a step further and requir airlines to operate under their own name. No more "Connection" or "Express" unless that is the name of the airline.
An unbeleiveably simple answer to this whole mess! Stop letting airlines masquarade as someone else!
 

Lear70

JAFFO
Joined
Oct 17, 2003
Posts
7,487
Total Time
4abeer
Require that all airline pilots obtain an Airline Transport Pilot license, which is currently only needed by captains. Pilots must have a minimum of 1,500 flight hours to obtain the license. Co-pilots may now be hired at airlines with as little as about 200 hours, though most begin airline work with more experience. This is good for all active pilots. Its that whole supply and demand thing and this gives a couple points to the pilots in that battle.
Glad to see that what I've been preaching for over HALF A DECADE is finally being seriously looked at.

I agree, once the guys currently on the street get jobs and there is a need for new pilots, this is going to seriously become a problem for air carriers. Why? Pretty simple: the many small charter companies where many pilots built their time are either out of business or seriously down-sized. Check running has become almost a thing of the past, as has ad-hoc freight with almost everything being shipped in from overseas. With the fewer jobs and reduced operations resulting in slower time-building, fewer and fewer pilots will be able to build enough time to obtain the ATP rating fast enough to keep the flood of available applicants to the airlines.

Now we just have to make sure we guard against a MPL or increased foreign pilots or airlines flying our routes, and we should have some leverage moving forward...

• Require airlines and travel websites when they sell tickets to disclose the name of the carrier operating the flight. About half of all flights are operated by regional airlines working under contract to major carriers, but those regionals almost never sell tickets directly to passengers. Most of the regional flights are flown with the name of the major carrier painted on their aircraft. Delta and the rest of the gang who have been pushing for so called "seamless code sharing" aka farming to the regionals probably wont like this one. Maybe with the negative perception of regionals right now this will further influence the powers that be to bring more flying back to mainline. Well its a nice thought anyway.
Yeah, nice thought, but people will STILL buy the lowest-priced ticket, regardless of who operates the flight.

this is stupid because no one is hiring. Go back and fire everyone with less 1500 hours.....

another waste of money making a law that will do nothing.
Almost NO ONE in the 121 world has less than 1,500 hours now. The last big hiring with 500 hours total time was almost 2 years ago. Flying 600-800 hours a year (conservatively) means it's unlikely there's more than a handful of sub-1,500 hour pilots anywhere in the 121 world now.

Most of us disagree with you that this law will "do nothing". Put the law into effect and give it 4-5 years and you'll see a large change. With fewer and fewer pilots interested because of slave wages at regionals and now a requirement for an ATP before you can get hired there, you'll see an even larger decrease of new pilot entrants into the field, and the trickle-down effect once the age-65 pilots retire and the furloughees are hired, things will start getting tight.

Case in point? Almost every regional would have been unable to fill classes the last 3 years of hiring before this recession if the ATP would have been required. Be patient, you'll see...
 

CFI2766

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 11, 2005
Posts
1,293
Total Time
4000
Up to a year to re-write rest regs? A year is a long time; I can't help but wonder what the various airline management groups would do during that time to weaken the fatigue rules.
 

njcapt

Freak power candidate
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
1,096
Total Time
>12K
Now we just have to make sure we guard against a MPL or increased foreign pilots or airlines flying our routes, and we should have some leverage moving forward...

This is the proverbial hole in the dike, and everybody had better line up to stick their fingers into it. At the first sign of hiring distress you can count on the RAA and ATA to cry their eyes out to congress and the FAA to let them relax cabotage and right to work restrictions and push for MPL. This is the line that can't be crossed to ensure the last little bit of dignity this career still contains doesn't swirl the bowl.
 

kf4amu

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 31, 2005
Posts
3,074
Total Time
250
Theres plenty of pilots in the country with more that 1500 hours. What about all the military guys that move into other careers? How about all the furloughed pilots that quit the airline business altogether (60 percent of the last batch of USAir recalls) etc


There are plenty of qualified pilots, but not plenty of qualified pilots willing to work for the ********************ty pay.
 

Jetjockey

Stay thirsty my friends
Joined
Feb 28, 2002
Posts
1,492
Total Time
18K+
I'm sure the pilots already hired with less than 1,500 hours would be grandfathered in. Ex post facto laws are unconstitutional.

1,500 hours sounds like a realistic starting point to me.
 

Amish RakeFight

Registered Loser
Joined
Dec 28, 2005
Posts
8,006
Total Time
.
A 1500 hr requirement will put a huge dent in the bridge program model that have been offered in the past as incentive to enroll with a pilot mill. The "non-CFI" crowd may be heavily put off and not bother to pursue a flying career. Seems many skipped this character-building step to get hired on with 300-500 hours.
 

Diesel-9

Well-known member
Joined
May 1, 2005
Posts
527
Total Time
18,885
Wasn't 1500 Hrs and an ATP the minimum 20+ years ago? Shouldn't have ever changed.


Requirements to Obtain an ATP Certificate
  1. Be at least 23 years of age.
  2. Be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language.
  3. Be of good moral character.
  4. Meet at least one of the following:
    1. Hold at least a commercial pilot certificate and an instrument rating.
    2. Meet the military experience requirements (listed in FAR 61.73) to qualify for a commercial pilot certificate and an instrument rating.
    3. Hold either a foreign ATP or a foreign commercial pilot license and an instrument rating, without limitations, issued by a member nation of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO).
  5. Hold at least a current FAA third-class medical certificate. Later, if your flying requires an ATP certificate, you must hold a first-class medical certificate.
  6. Receive and log ground training from an authorized instructor, or complete a home-study course (such as studying Airline Transport Pilot FAA Knowledge Test and Aviation Weather and Weather Services) to learn (61.155)
    1. Applicable Federal Aviation Regulations . . . that relate to airline transport pilot privileges, limitations, and flight operations.
    2. Meteorology, including knowledge of and effects of fronts, frontal characteristics, cloud formations, icing, and upper-air data.
    3. General systems of weather and NOTAM collection, dissemination, interpretation, and use.
    4. Interpretation and use of weather charts, maps, forecasts, sequence reports, abbreviations, and symbols.
    5. National Weather Service functions as they pertain to operations in the National Airspace System.
    6. Windshear and microburst awareness, identification, and avoidance.
    7. Principles of air navigation under instrument meteorological conditions in the National Airspace System.
    8. Air traffic control procedures and pilot responsibilities as they relate to en route operations, terminal area and radar operations, and instrument departure and approach procedures.
    9. Aircraft loading, weight and balance, use of charts, graphs, tables, formulas, and computations, and their effect on aircraft performance.
    10. Aerodynamics relating to an aircraft's flight characteristics and performance in normal and abnormal flight regimes.
    11. Human factors.
    12. Aeronautical decision making and judgment.
    13. Crew resource management to include crew communication and coordination.
  7. Pass a pilot knowledge test with a score of 70% or better.
    1. A knowledge test is not required for you to add another aircraft type rating to your ATP certificate if your ATP certificate lists the aircraft category and class rating that is appropriate to the type rating sought.
  8. Accumulate flight experience (FAR 61.159).
    1. Except as provided in b. and c. on the next page, you must log at least 1,500 hr. of total time as a pilot that includes at least
      1. 500 hr. of cross-country flight time
      2. 100 hr. of night flight time
        1. A person who has performed at least 20 night takeoffs and landings to a full stop may substitute each additional night takeoff and landing to a full stop for 1 hr. of night flight time, limited to not more than 25 hr. of night flight time.
      3. 75 hr. of actual or simulated instrument flight time
        1. The maximum time that may be accumulated in a flight simulator or flight training device, representing an airplane, is either
          1. 25 hr., if the training is not conducted under FAR Part 142, or
          2. 50 hr., if the training is conducted under FAR Part 142.
      4. 250 hr. of flight time as PIC of an airplane, or as SIC performing the duties and functions of a PIC under the supervision of a PIC, or by any combination of the two. This requirement must include
        1. 100 hr. of cross-country time
        2. 25 hr. of night flight time
        NOTE: Not more than 100 hr. of the total aeronautical experience requirements may be obtained in a flight simulator or a flight training device that represents an airplane, provided the experience was obtained in a course conducted under FAR Part 142.
    2. A commercial pilot may credit the following flight time toward the 1,500 hr. of total pilot time.
      1. SIC time, provided the time is acquired in an airplane, under one of the following conditions:
        1. Required to have more than one pilot flight crewmember by the airplane's flight manual, a type certificate, or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted
        2. Engaged in operations under Part 121 or 135 for which a SIC is required
        3. Required under the FARs to have more than one pilot flight crewmember
      2. Flight-engineer time, provided the time
        1. Is acquired in an airplane required to have a flight engineer by the airplane's flight manual or type certificate
        2. Is acquired while in operations conducted under Part 121 for which a flight engineer is required
        3. Is acquired while the person is participating in a pilot training program under Part 121
        4. Does not exceed more than 1 hr. for each 3 hr. of flight-engineer flight time for a total credited time of not more than 500 hr.
    3. You may be issued an ATP certificate with the endorsement "Holder does not meet the pilot in command aeronautical experience requirements of ICAO," if you
      1. Credit SIC or flight-engineer time toward the 1,500 hr. total flight time requirement
      2. Do not have at least 1,200 hr. of flight time as a pilot, including no more than 50% of your SIC time and none of your flight-engineer time
      3. Otherwise meet the aeronautical experience requirements
        NOTE: The endorsement described in item c. above will be removed when you present satisfactory evidence of the accumulation of 1,200 hr. flight time as a pilot including no more than 50% of your SIC time and none of your flight-engineer time.
  9. Successfully complete the ATP practical flight test given as a final exam by an FAA inspector or designated pilot examiner and conducted as specified in the FAA's Airline Transport Pilot and Type Rating Practical Test Standards (FAA-S-8081-5B, dated July 1995).
    1. The ATP practical test covers the following areas of operations:
      1. Preflight preparation
      2. Preflight procedures
      3. Takeoff and departure phase
      4. In-flight maneuvers
      5. Instrument procedures
      6. Landings and approaches to landings
      7. Normal and abnormal procedures
      8. Emergency procedures
      9. Postflight procedures
    2. We do not provide a flight maneuver book for the ATP since the test is make and model specific to the airplane being used.
 

instructordude

Playing with Fire
Joined
Apr 13, 2006
Posts
975
Total Time
3800
A 1500 hr requirement will put a huge dent in the bridge program model that have been offered in the past as incentive to enroll with a pilot mill. The "non-CFI" crowd may be heavily put off and not bother to pursue a flying career. Seems many skipped this character-building step to get hired on with 300-500 hours.

I got hours instructing but none of them hours prepared me for the 121 environment like "The Academey".
 

scrub

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 26, 2006
Posts
115
Total Time
7:58pm
problem not solved! I know a lot of guys with a lot more than 1500 hrs in the left seat of a shinny jet and they still don't know how to fly!!!!!
 

pilotyip

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
13,629
Total Time
14000
What does 1500 hours do for anyone? I have interviewed a USAF pilot leaving active service with less than 1500 hours after 10 years of service, but it was all MEL turbo jet, mostly EC-135. By this standard he could not fly in the right seat of a commuter 121 airplane. But Joe CFI with 1501 hours, 4 MEL would take his place. Who would you rather have in the right seat? About helo pilots where would they fit into this proposal.
 

cjdriver

Well-known member
Joined
May 3, 2005
Posts
736
Maybe if they raised the min hours to 1500 and an ATP (god forbid an airline pilot has to have an airline license), the airlines would have to pay more, which would attract experienced military pilots who now don't care to compete with puppy mill pilots for a 16k/year job. The low threshold to entry in the airline industry is a race to the bottom, and we've arrived at the bottom. Hence all the problems at, and attention on the regionals.
 

brokeflyer

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 12, 2005
Posts
2,374
Total Time
1501
What does 1500 hours do for anyone? I have interviewed a USAF pilot leaving active service with less than 1500 hours after 10 years of service, but it was all MEL turbo jet, mostly EC-135. By this standard he could not fly in the right seat of a commuter 121 airplane. But Joe CFI with 1501 hours, 4 MEL would take his place. Who would you rather have in the right seat? About helo pilots where would they fit into this proposal.


Ive never been impressed with military pilots transfering to civilian. Myself included.

We are very good at what we do but when we go to civilian, we may as well start from scratch.
 
Top