Looks Like 1500 Hours May Become the New Hiring Minimum Among Other Things:

[AC560]

Management's default response to proposals is that it cost too much, or the margin isn't there, or...

And this is where labor collapses in most companies. What are you doing to push these ideas with management to make the company more successful? Are you trying to get pilots onto the Board, into management? Labor has to become part of the solution and not the problem. Use your leverage to negotiate a say in the running of the company as opposed to give me a 3% raise.

saw a cheaper fare (by $20-40) and didn't have a clue about the meals (from back in the day) or the Signature seating. They just saw the $$$. I personally think that was Midwest's fault for not doing more advertising, but that is just me.

Absolutely and as an extensive business traveler I have commented on several threads that I would be willing to pay professional and personally a small additional amount for little perks. I used to travel a lot on Southwest because the flight attendants had great attitudes, the pilots would talk to people in the lounge, etc. Today most of my travels are on AA primarily due to frequent flier miles but the reason for the initial switch was at one time they had the bigger seating in the cabin (now since gone). I switched from UA to AA because of that.

As a company in a competitive industry you have to differentiate. I work in shipping which has in most major markets over 400 competitors. Even in airfreight where DHL (talking heavy weight) is the biggest player they have less then 10% market share. We can't all compete on price alone. We have to compete on price, service, technology, locations, etc. I look at UA/AA/DL/NW and see zero difference. I fly Virgin Upper Deck I see a big difference at least at the front of the bus (likewise on BA). Business/First Internationally on the US legacy carriers is a joke and where I can I book with AA on a CX flight so I get the miles and the CX service.

But it gets back to again what is labor doing to correct this? You guys spend your time arguing about how flight attendants are mean to you and you have no Captains authority and how your crew meal sucks. All you do is cling on to what you have in the hopes you make it to retirement. All you are is a big part of the problem and not the solution.

The problem I have with the managements' claims is that the accounting practices seem to mirror Arthur Anderson's Enron operation. The flexibility to take various write-downs (at will it seems) appears to give them the leverage to manipulate the numbers. The company can appear profitable or weak at will. It's some freaky smoke-n-mirrors, voodoo bookkeeping.

Welcome to every other business in the world, airlines aren't any different. Why doesn't ALPA have accountants who can craft a profit sharing scheme which takes financial trickery into account? Better yet why doesn't ALPA sit on the board? Again you guys need to look in the mirror instead of sitting around all day crying woes me, I hope Obama saves me.

 

[pilotyip]

Wow!

Actually, you illustrate how clueless the typical airline passenger is, and I agree with you. All the more reason they need regulations like this one to protect themselves from the downward spiral in the industry they're creating, without even knowing it.

Wow, you agree with me? I am a former ALPA member, airline went out of business in the early 80's. In the beginning ALPA did great things for the airline career, but there is limit to what a union can do when the comsumer dictates how much revenue will come into an airline. There is no easy solution that makes things better without punishing someone. For all the pilots who want hirer pay, there are two ways to go about it. #1 withhold your services until you get the pay you want. This can also be done in your place of work to force management into higher pay rates. This is the same method used by the Comair, UAL, NWA, and DAL pilots in the late 90’s. Those were great victories for the pilot work force, hjowever there is the UAW downside of fewer jobs and possible company BK. #2 raise money in the capital markets, start your own airline, and pay the pilots whatever they think is fair for their services, and pay management no more than the average pilot's pay. Pitfalls with #1, there may be unemployed pilots who are desperate to feed their families and make house payments. These pilots may work at a lower wages than you would like. Pitfall with #2, are pilots willing to risk their own money in starting an airline? Unions can not make silk purse out of a pig's ear.

 

[ualdriver]

Wow, you agree with me? I am a former ALPA member, airline went out of business in the early 80's. In the beginning ALPA did great things for the airline career, but there is limit to what a union can do when the comsumer dictates how much revenue will come into an airline.

ALPA still does great things for the airline career, it's just that pilots don't pay attention. They don't go to union meetings, they don't ask questions, they don't read their expensive magazine subscription, and they rely on getting most of their information from forums such as these and their best friend's cousin's brother who is the CEO's neighbor.

Why are you surprised that I agree with that part of your argument? I've stated repeatedly that market forces are far more powerful than ANY union. That's why pilot compensation continues to slide. I don't care who your union is, when there is a large oversupply of pilots saturating the industry, it's very easy for a JetBlue, an Allegiant, a Virgin America, a Skybus, etc., to come in and massively undercut your professional wages until some sort of equilibrium is reached. It's ALPA's job to slow that slide (and that's all they can do is slow it- not stop it), and in my opinion that what's they have done and have been relatively successful in doing so.

Back on topic.......now bumping airline pilots up to 1500 hrs. is going to alter that supply and demand equation and it should take care of at least two or three problems that we as organized labor have. However, as I stated the day after the legislation came out, in my opinion, I doubt the ATP requirement is going to stick. After listening to the testimony and reading what Babbitt had to say, I bet some sort of special training programs and/or mentoring programs come into play for low time guys instead. We'll see.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I speak from the luxury of being a trained professional who is highly desired and compensated in my field for my ability to achieve results. You speak as somebody whose only worth is his seniority number.

We both chose what we would be judged on.

It suggests that you are a corporate pilot..... or a well endowned porn star..... regardless, good luck.... an hick ups in your solid career should be easy to recover from.....

Which with overtime puts me ahead in terms of salary to most of the people on this thread and I get all the free cheese fries I can eat.

and yet here you are....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Thank You, you have recognized the bigger picture outside the cockpit.


It is not about safety, the consumer experiences the most dangerous part of his trip driving to the airport. The consumer sees one thing, how much does it cost, everything else counts for little to the middle income airline ticket purchaser. It is not management, pilots, safetry, regulation. It is the the middle income airline ticket purchase, the person buying the ticket that drives the entiore airline industry. You to deal with that reality.

No it is even bigger than that.... it is what we value as a culture in this nation as a group of citizen consumers....

We sell each other out for good deals...cheap goods from China and cheap airline tickets online.... yet we don't know how to function as a collective group to do what is best for all of us...

$99 transcon fares don't allow for profit or safety... it doesn't work...

Like the pilot profession to the medical profession and doctors. Do we really want doctors to vacate communities because mal practice insurance is too high? Is that what the people in those communities want? Probably not, but those people don't get to decide. Others decided for them, that they won't have doctors...

Your example of the ride to the airport is more dangerous is rediculous... then you blather on about the consumer.... but when the consumer gets screwed either financially or mortally, then the consumer or his kin run to the govt for legislation. Now, who gets to decide on the legislation? The interest groups in DC.....

We are a reactionay culture... we can't proactivey decide together what we want... we have to wait for the pain of the status quo to be so great that the belief that the change will be better in order to motivate us... and then elite groups actually make the changes in DC.


This is a major flaw in our country and culture and it all starts with each of us not playing the blame game...

 

[JoeMerchant]

ALPA still does great things for the airline career, it's just that pilots don't pay attention. They don't go to union meetings, they don't ask questions, they don't read their expensive magazine subscription, and they rely on getting most of their information from forums such as these and their best friend's cousin's brother who is the CEO's neighbor.

So this all those "stupid pilot's" fault....Your precious ALPA isn't to blame? It's exactly that arrogance that helps to create the very apathy you rail against....ALPA has a lot to do with the problems we face and blaiming the membership only makes the problem worse....

Why are you surprised that I agree with that part of your argument? I've stated repeatedly that market forces are far more powerful than ANY union. That's why pilot compensation continues to slide. I don't care who your union is, when there is a large oversupply of pilots saturating the industry, it's very easy for a JetBlue, an Allegiant, a Virgin America, a Skybus, etc., to come in and massively undercut your professional wages until some sort of equilibrium is reached. It's ALPA's job to slow that slide (and that's all they can do is slow it- not stop it), and in my opinion that what's they have done and have been relatively successful in doing so.

Let's look at where some of those market forces come from...shall we....

1. The De-regulation Act of 1978 signed by Jimmy Carter and championed by Ted Kennedy...The left likes to look out for the poor consumer....Who do the unions support...You guessed it...Those same left wingers who want to protect the poor consumer...

2. A total failure on the scope issue by ALPA which allowed management to put flying out for bid based on cost.....Who sold that...You guessed it....ALPA....

3. A total failure by ALPA to regulate what it takes to become an airline pilot....No other profession allows someone to pay a bunch of money and become a member of the profession after a short 10 months...Of course according to Rez....they are a professional as long as they put on an ALPA pin and pay money to Herndon...

Back on topic.......now bumping airline pilots up to 1500 hrs. is going to alter that supply and demand equation and it should take care of at least two or three problems that we as organized labor have. However, as I stated the day after the legislation came out, in my opinion, I doubt the ATP requirement is going to stick. After listening to the testimony and reading what Babbitt had to say, I bet some sort of special training programs and/or mentoring programs come into play for low time guys instead. We'll see.

Why hasn't your precious ALPA ever pushed for a 1500 hour requirement or an ATP requirement? Why did ALPA support MPL? ALPA failed....No other professional organization supports low experience....Only ALPA....

 

[JoeMerchant]

It suggests that you are a corporate pilot..... or a well endowned porn star..... regardless, good luck.... an hick ups in your solid career should be easy to recover from.....

Neither corporate pilots, nor porn stars are members of unions....Yet they get more respect and more pay than the average airline pilot....Why is that Rez?

 

[JoeMerchant]

No it is even bigger than that.... it is what we value as a culture in this nation as a group of citizen consumers....

We sell each other out for good deals...cheap goods from China and cheap airline tickets online.... yet we don't know how to function as a collective group to do what is best for all of us...

$99 transcon fares don't allow for profit or safety... it doesn't work...

....who is to blame for that Rez? Who signed the Deregulation Act of 1978 and who sponsored it? Carter and Kennedy are heroes to those of you on the left....They were looking out for the little guy, weren't they? Be careful what you wish for.....

Like the pilot profession to the medical profession and doctors. Do we really want doctors to vacate communities because mal practice insurance is too high? Is that what the people in those communities want? Probably not, but those people don't get to decide. Others decided for them, that they won't have doctors...

...you're right...The trial lawyers, who support your party the Democrats, will continue to keep malpractice insurance high...which costs all of us..Again, it's your side of the aisle that makes this possible...

Your example of the ride to the airport is more dangerous is rediculous... then you blather on about the consumer.... but when the consumer gets screwed either financially or mortally, then the consumer or his kin run to the govt for legislation. Now, who gets to decide on the legislation? The interest groups in DC.....

The example is not rediculous.....The "consumer" wants cheap stuff at cheap prices....Not possible...Who claims that is possible? The left does....Your side does....You can't have it both ways....

This is a major flaw in our country and culture and it all starts with each of us not playing the blame game...

You are the king of the "blame game".....According to you, it is all the fault of Republicans, George Bush, and Skywest pilots.....You refuse to look in the mirror....

 

[ualdriver]

So this all those "stupid pilot's" fault....Your precious ALPA isn't to blame? It's exactly that arrogance that helps to create the very apathy you rail against....ALPA has a lot to do with the problems we face and blaiming the membership only makes the problem worse....

Let's look at where some of those market forces come from...shall we....

1. The De-regulation Act of 1978 signed by Jimmy Carter and championed by Ted Kennedy...The left likes to look out for the poor consumer....Who do the unions support...You guessed it...Those same left wingers who want to protect the poor consumer...

2. A total failure on the scope issue by ALPA which allowed management to put flying out for bid based on cost.....Who sold that...You guessed it....ALPA....

3. A total failure by ALPA to regulate what it takes to become an airline pilot....No other profession allows someone to pay a bunch of money and become a member of the profession after a short 10 months...Of course according to Rez....they are a professional as long as they put on an ALPA pin and pay money to Herndon...

Why hasn't your precious ALPA ever pushed for a 1500 hour requirement or an ATP requirement? Why did ALPA support MPL? ALPA failed....No other professional organization supports low experience....Only ALPA....

Joe, ALPA is a complete failure that does nothing for pilots, OK? I'm not debating a guy like you. You sit there at your ALPA airline with your cushy schedule and 6 figure salary flying a 50 seat jet, and then tell us all how terrible ALPA is. Yeah, right. ALPA has really failed YOU.

You're barely an ALPA member, you don't pay your dues, you brag about sending postage paid cards back to ALPA so you can cost them extra money, and you take pleasure in fellow ALPA members' failings. Your irrational hatred of the union is so blinding you can't see the forest for the trees and debating you is absolutely pointless. Write a post telling everyone how I'm dodging your questions, then put me on your ignore list or something, will ya? That's about all a guy like you is going to get out of me anymore.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe, ALPA is a complete failure that does nothing for pilots, OK? I'm not debating a guy like you. You sit there at your ALPA airline with your cushy schedule and 6 figure salary flying a 50 seat jet, and then tell us all how terrible ALPA is. Yeah, right. ALPA has really failed YOU.

You're barely an ALPA member, you don't pay your dues, you brag about sending postage paid cards back to ALPA so you can cost them extra money, and you take pleasure in fellow ALPA members' failings. Your irrational hatred of the union is so blinding you can't see the forest for the trees and debating you is absolutely pointless. Write a post telling everyone how I'm dodging your questions, then put me on your ignore list or something, will ya? That's about all a guy like you is going to get out of me anymore.

Typical response from the ALPA bleachers....and you wonder why you aren't taken seriously...You failed to address any of the issues I raised.....instead you attacked me because I dared to question the almighty ALPA....I have been through ALPA leadership training and that is the one thing they teach you...Protect ALPA at any cost....

Unlike you, I will address the issues you raised....

Yes I have a cushy schedule and make 6 figures....However, due to ALPA failures, I probably won't keep that...It will be outsourced to someone who will do it for cheaper....Either another ALPA regional, or even the ALPA represented mainline pilots....That's what we do in this so called "union"...We compete with one another for work, and we call each other "brother" while we take work from one another...Keep up the cheerleading.....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You're barely an ALPA member, you don't pay your dues, you brag about sending postage paid cards back to ALPA so you can cost them extra money, and you take pleasure in fellow ALPA members' failings. Your irrational hatred of the union is so blinding you can't see the forest for the trees and debating you is absolutely pointless. Write a post telling everyone how I'm dodging your questions, then put me on your ignore list or something, will ya? That's about all a guy like you is going to get out of me anymore.

He was an elected ALPA officer that couldn't follow basic duties in the C&BL. His behavior was rejected by his fellow ALPA pilots. This is why he disdains ALPA.... its ego... he now hates the very organization he desperately wanted to fit it..... however I suspect he wanted to be an ALPA officer for personal aggrandizement.... I doubt he cares much for others... or ever did....

The problem is.... he has no shame... so he will constantly try to subvert anyone who wants to contribute to the profession in part for fear that they will gain honest statisfaction in accomplishment where he never did.... nor ever will....

 

[JoeMerchant]

He was an elected ALPA officer that couldn't follow basic duties in the C&BL. His behavior was rejected by his fellow ALPA pilots. This is why he disdains ALPA.... its ego... he now hates the very organization he desperately wanted to fit it..... however I suspect he wanted to be an ALPA officer for personal aggrandizement.... I doubt he cares much for others... or ever did....

The problem is.... he has no shame... so he will constantly try to subvert anyone who wants to contribute to the profession in part for fear that they will gain honest statisfaction in accomplishment where he never did.... nor ever will....

Here is what Rez said about the Skywest pilots on another thread:

"Maybe the OO pilots need to stop being treated professionally at the airport. But that won't happen... we'll still continue to help you with your jumpseat problems, smile and acknowledge you... and you'll think you are liked and maybe even respected..... "

Yet he accuses me of " not caring for others"....another ALPA hypocrite...I care more about my Skywest "brothers" than I do about the ALPA cheerleaders who helped create this mess.....That's what they hate....Blame everyone but ALPA....

I could give a rat's A$$ about ALPA....I care about ASA and Skywest Inc....That's who pays my check....

 

[ualdriver]

Typical response from the ALPA bleachers....and you wonder why you aren't taken seriously...You failed to address any of the issues I raised.....instead you attacked me because I dared to question the almighty ALPA....I have been through ALPA leadership training and that is the one thing they teach you...Protect ALPA at any cost....

Joe, you are an angry, bitter pilot. You are so pissed off that I don't think you are capable of coherent thought. Seriously.

First of all, as I have stated REPEATEDLY, I am not an ALPA cheerleader. I'm a guy that wishes we didn't even need unions, but in this industry that is not realistic. I've worked at union and non-union airlines/entities. It's a no-brainer. I'll take imperfect ALPA over nothing. Show me a union better than ALPA and I'll personally start the drive at my airline myself. If that's your definition of an "ALPA cheerleader" then I don't know what to tell you.

And then you make these points, some of them valid, mostly not, then imply, "look flightinfo.com readers, here are some of ALPA's failures, therefore invalidating any contribution ALPA has made, currently makes, and will make in the future." Then you go off on these anti-ALPA tirades and brag about not paying dues, sending back postage paid cars, etc. ALPA is a pretty big organization. ANY big organization has its failings. Again, to only point out ALPA's failings, and then try to invalidate the whole organization because of those failings is ridiculous. There is no large organization on the planet that could survive that scrutiny. That's why I say you can't see the forest for the trees.

Then you make some ridiculous leap about the Deregulation Act and how ALPA failed there because it typically supports Democrats. Joe, there are two, sometimes 3 parties to choose from. What is a union supposed to do, support "...pilots are greedy and unpatriotic....." McCain because Kennedy pushed for deregulation 30 years ago? Maybe, just maybe, no candidate is necessarily perfect so you pick the candidate that will best further your organization's goals? And maybe, just maybe, just because YOU don't agree with ALPA's political choice that it doesn't invalidate the whole organization?

On point 2, yup ALPA membership screwed up the outsourcing of RJ's. Obviously with the hindsight of 20/20 not one ALPA airline should have relaxed scope. Period. Does that mean ALPA is a totally useless organization now? Nope, I don't think so. Again, you're so bitter and angry, you fail to see EVERYTHING else ALPA has done, currently does, and will do in the future. I can't wait for the, "oh yeah, tell me one thing ALPA has done for me lately," I'm sure to read as a reply.....

On point 3, a total failure by ALPA to regulate? GMAFB. I didn't realize ALPA wrote the FARs or dictated to our legislative branch. I thought it was a union that influences said organizations. So because Prater/Woerth/Babbitt/whoever else didn't march into the halls of Congress and say, "this is how it's going to be," ALPA has totally failed? Why couldn't I own a handgun in Chicago, Joe? Is the NRA a total failure because it didn't march into my state's legislature and tell them how it's going to be? Why couldn't business jets fly into DCA for years after 9/11? Why did flight schools go out of business under the DC ADIZ when they couldn't fly their planes? Why are general aviation airports closing all over the country? The AOPA must be a failure because it didn't regulate properly, right? Yet these are organizations that you have previously described as successes. How can that be? Because you're so bitter and angry, you can't see the difference.

Why hasn't ALPA ever pushed for a 1500 hr. requirement? You have to have willing parties on the other end of the negotiation to make stuff happen. Nobody cared until Buffalo. That argument is the same lame argument some anti-ALPA, angry furloughees make about getting laid off. Why didn't ALPA get me longevity? Why didn't ALPA get a buyout for the senior guys? Why didn't ALPA negotiate lower line caps to keep people on the property? It's the same reason. ALPA can "want" all day and night sometimes. If the other guy doesn't want to discuss it with you, you aren't getting anything. Just because the entity on the opposite side of the table isn't interested in discussing a particular item with you, doesn't make ALPA a failed organization.

Why did ALPA support MPL? Maybe, just maybe, they thought an inexperienced pilot going through a MPL program would be better than a 250 hr. wonder coming through All ATP's. Maybe they thought that they could influence MPL legislation, structure, and oversight, and make the profession better. I've argued that the whole MPL thing is a moot point. Either way, you've got an inexperienced pilot shelling out $80K for training. One emphasizes airline operations from the get go, one has you drilling holes in the sky on VFR cross countries. Both spit out pilots from the opposite end that have no business sitting in the right seat of an airliner. So ALPA chooses to support the MPL path instead of the All ATP's path, and you don't agree with that? Whether you think it's right or wrong, that makes ALPA a failure?

Then you say, "no other organization supports low experience." Really? Have you ever been to hospital, only to be seen by a Resident or an intern? I have. Does that mean the AMA supports inexperienced medical professionals treating patients? Are you familiar with the financial planning industry? How about the insurance industry? Inexperienced professionals in those professions give important advice every day of the week. Does that mean FINRA, the SEC, and the state's insurance commission "support inexperienced professionals" giving important financial and insurance advice? They aren't actively supporting it just because it exists. I'm sure if you asked ALPA leadership, they would prefer to have 10,000 hour, experienced pilots in every cockpit. I'm sure if you asked FINRA, the SEC, and your state's insurance entity, they'd rather have experienced professionals with 10 years on the job providing you with financial/insurance advice. But that doesn't mean they're "supporting" inexperienced players. It's a lame argument from a bitter, angry pilot doing anything he can to disparage ALPA.

Do you see a pattern here, Joe? You have one guy who realizes that ALPA is an imperfect organization run by imperfect pilots, but despite those failings, still sees value in ALPA going forward. And then you have another bitter, angry pilot illustrating a few of ALPA's failings, mf'ing ALPA every chance he has, name calling, and writing off the whole organization as useless, all the while enjoying the union benefits of a 6 figure salary and 18 days off a month. Kind of hypocritical, if you ask me.

So this "ALPA cheerleader" isn't dodging questions, Joe. He has, however, just wasted 20 minutes of his life that he'll never get back.

 

[ualdriver]

He was an elected ALPA officer that couldn't follow basic duties in the C&BL. His behavior was rejected by his fellow ALPA pilots. This is why he disdains ALPA.... its ego... he now hates the very organization he desperately wanted to fit it..... however I suspect he wanted to be an ALPA officer for personal aggrandizement.... I doubt he cares much for others... or ever did....

The problem is.... he has no shame... so he will constantly try to subvert anyone who wants to contribute to the profession in part for fear that they will gain honest statisfaction in accomplishment where he never did.... nor ever will....

Yup, I'm getting the picture...

 

[JoeMerchant]

So much for you ignoring me because I am not a member in good standing....I guess things started hitting too close to home...This is a start....

Joe, you are an angry, bitter pilot. You are so pissed off that I don't think you are capable of coherent thought. Seriously.

You are wrong...I'm not an "angry bitter pilot"....I didn't leave to chase the dream at United like you did...I suspect it is you that is angry and bitter.....I have a great schedule....Why should I be bitter....Things are great where I sit...Even you have said that...

First of all, as I have stated REPEATEDLY, I am not an ALPA cheerleader. I'm a guy that wishes we didn't even need unions, but in this industry that is not realistic. I've worked at union and non-union airlines/entities. It's a no-brainer. I'll take imperfect ALPA over nothing. Show me a union better than ALPA and I'll personally start the drive at my airline myself. If that's your definition of an "ALPA cheerleader" then I don't know what to tell you.

How has that worked for you at United? I'm sorry, but I'll take a profitable company that treats it's employees good....Skywest Inc does that...United...not so much....

And then you make these points, some of them valid, mostly not, then imply, "look flightinfo.com readers, here are some of ALPA's failures, therefore invalidating any contribution ALPA has made, currently makes, and will make in the future."

Some are valid are they? Which ones? Actually, I have admitted that ALPA has done some good things....However I believe the bad outweighs the good..

Then you go off on these anti-ALPA tirades and brag about not paying dues, sending back postage paid cars, etc. ALPA is a pretty big organization. ANY big organization has its failings.

You are right...That's why I am not a big supporter of big organizations....I was a registered Republican, but I voted Libertarian this time around.....The Republican failed. I am Catholic, but they failed also with the priest/sex scandel....The Federal govt. continues to fail and I only wish I could stop paying taxes.....

Again, to only point out ALPA's failings, and then try to invalidate the whole organization because of those failings is ridiculous. There is no large organization on the planet that could survive that scrutiny. That's why I say you can't see the forest for the trees.

I have pointed out ALPA's good points...few that they are....I don't support organizations that fail...That's why I voted Libertarian this time as a registered Republican...The Republicans failed....Large organization fail because of people like you....They don't accept criticism and they protect the organization at the expense of the membership...I would rather be independent and speak my mind than parrot the talking points of a failed organization...That's just me...

Then you make some ridiculous leap about the Deregulation Act and how ALPA failed there because it typically supports Democrats. Joe, there are two, sometimes 3 parties to choose from. What is a union supposed to do, support "...pilots are greedy and unpatriotic....." McCain because Kennedy pushed for deregulation 30 years ago? And maybe, just maybe, just because YOU don't agree with ALPA's political choice that it doesn't invalidate the whole organization?

First thing you have to have if you want to bargain for more is a healthy economy, a healthy company, and a healthy industry.....Nothing else matters if you don't have those things....You can't squeeze blood out of a turnip....The left wing isn't good for those 3 things....The Deregulation Act of 1978 is the single biggest reason we will never see the pay and workrules that we once had.....The revenue isn't there anymore and never will be...It's more important to the left that the poor people have cheap tickets...Sorry if you can't accept that truth...

On point 2, yup ALPA membership screwed up the outsourcing of RJ's. Obviously with the hindsight of 20/20 not one ALPA airline should have relaxed scope. Period. Does that mean ALPA is a totally useless organization now? Nope, I don't think so. Again, you're so bitter and angry, you fail to see EVERYTHING else ALPA has done, currently does, and will do in the future. I can't wait for the, "oh yeah, tell me one thing ALPA has done for me lately," I'm sure to read as a reply.....

Actually they screwed up with outsourcing of the turboprops first....But the mainline egos were too big to fly "little airplanes".....and it has come back to bite them in the a$$...Now that we agree on that, how do we reconcile the very real issue that some of us have made a career flying these "little airplanes" that the mighty mainline pilots didn't want to fly? It's my job now, and I will do anything and everything to protect from you....I'm sorry United hasn't worked out for you, but that isn't MY problem...That is YOUR problem....If you want to work on a mutual solution, let me know....If you want to dictate the solution, then GFYS!

On point 3, a total failure by ALPA to regulate? GMAFB. I didn't realize ALPA wrote the FARs or dictated to our legislative branch. I thought it was a union that influences said organizations. So because Prater/Woerth/Babbitt/whoever else didn't march into the halls of Congress and say, "this is how it's going to be," ALPA has totally failed? Why couldn't I own a handgun in Chicago, Joe? Is the NRA a total failure because it didn't march into my state's legislature and tell them how it's going to be? Why couldn't business jets fly into DCA for years after 9/11? Why did flight schools go out of business under the DC ADIZ when they couldn't fly their planes? Why are general aviation airports closing all over the country? The AOPA must be a failure because it didn't regulate properly, right? Yet these are organizations that you have previously described as successes. How can that be? Because you're so bitter and angry, you can't see the difference.

Why hasn't ALPA ever pushed for a 1500 hr. requirement? You have to have willing parties on the other end of the negotiation to make stuff happen. Nobody cared until Buffalo. That argument is the same lame argument some anti-ALPA, angry furloughees make about getting laid off. Why didn't ALPA get me longevity? Why didn't ALPA get a buyout for the senior guys? Why didn't ALPA negotiate lower line caps to keep people on the property? It's the same reason. ALPA can "want" all day and night sometimes. If the other guy doesn't want to discuss it with you, you aren't getting anything. Just because the entity on the opposite side of the table isn't interested in discussing a particular item with you, doesn't make ALPA a failed organization.

Why did ALPA support MPL? Maybe, just maybe, they thought an inexperienced pilot going through a MPL program would be better than a 250 hr. wonder coming through All ATP's. Maybe they thought that they could influence MPL legislation, structure, and oversight, and make the profession better. I've argued that the whole MPL thing is a moot point. Either way, you've got an inexperienced pilot shelling out $80K for training. One emphasizes airline operations from the get go, one has you drilling holes in the sky on VFR cross countries. Both spit out pilots from the opposite end that have no business sitting in the right seat of an airliner. So ALPA chooses to support the MPL path instead of the All ATP's path, and you don't agree with that? Whether you think it's right or wrong, that makes ALPA a failure?

Then you say, "no other organization supports low experience." Really? Have you ever been to hospital, only to be seen by a Resident or an intern? I have. Does that mean the AMA supports inexperienced medical professionals treating patients? It's a lame argument from a bitter, angry pilot doing anything he can to disparage ALPA.

Where do I start.....

1. ALPA has never pushed for higher requirements for pilots, despite many of us pushing for it....They ignored us...

2. ALPA pushes for regulations all the time...Right now they are pushing for tougher rest rules....Why haven't they pushed for tought pilot requirements?

3. Nobody cared until Buffalo? UYFCM? Many of us have complained for years about the inexperience in the cockpit....Even now, you cheerleaders are trying to blame it on fatigue instead of inexperience....Despite the fact that he had over 22 hours of rest...GMAFB!

4. ALPA supported MPL for the same reason that it never pushed for tougher requirements.....Low timers love ALPA and think it is great.....They love nothing more than to put on that ALPA lanyard and believe they have made it to the big leagues....The AMA or ABA would never support a fast track to becomming a doctor or lawyer.....ALPA on the other hand endorses it.....

5. Can you become a resident or an intern in 10 months? You can become an airline pilot in 10 months....Lame argument....but not surprising...

Do you see a pattern here, Joe? You have one guy who realizes that ALPA is an imperfect organization run by imperfect pilots, but despite those failings, still sees value in ALPA going forward. And then you have another bitter, angry pilot illustrating a few of ALPA's failings, mf'ing ALPA every chance he has, name calling, and writing off the whole organization as useless, all the while enjoying the union benefits of a 6 figure salary and 18 days off a month. Kind of hypocritical, if you ask me.

You have it backwards grasshopper.....This guy getting 18 days off a month making 6 figures is d@mn glad he didn't go to United....That would have made me bitter.....