Looks Like 1500 Hours May Become the New Hiring Minimum Among Other Things:

[Clyde Frog]

Two things: First, much of this discussion isn't really about safety, but more about supply and demand; more specifically, how to choke off supply dramatically by eliminating the puppy mills. If my basic econ class still applies, that makes the entry level pilot worth more, helping to reverse the current death spiral.

Second, the very real safety issue. I think we can all agree that 1500 hours does not equal a qualified 121 F/O. Here's what does, however: an ATP license (which happens to require 1500 hours). So no, they're not just looking at a total time requirement, which I would agree solves nothing. But if I'm putting my family on a regional and I know BOTH pilots have an ATP (assuming they don't dilute the standards of this checkride, which should be a tough one), then I'm feeling a lot better about the risk involved.

Pass this law!

Very well said. I agree completely.

 

[Bringupthebird]

It sure doesn't seem like those 1500 hours they each had (more for the Capt) were quality hours. They lacked basic airmanship skills. You don't pull back on the yoke during a stall. You don't put the flaps up during one either. That plane pancaked straight down on ONE house. You have to set a new standard (a higher standard) and go from there. To the pilots, I say RIP. But, something has to be done here.


Bye Bye---General Lee

I still think the story is not as simple as that. Look at the NASA tailplane icing video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ifKduc1hE8 . I wouldn't be surprised if this film wasn't in the back of his mind and immediately thought of tailplane icing when it pitched forward with flap deployment. An uncommanded raising of the flaps brought too many unknowns to react properly.

I have been involved in an accident investigation and I saw it was easier to blame the pilot and that this became the cause cast in stone.

I could be wrong, but I think the guy deserves the benefit of the doubt and a bad check ride (or even two) may not mean that the guy was a pitfully poor stick.

 

[kf4amu]

I could be wrong, but I think the guy deserves the benefit of the doubt and a bad check ride (or even two) may not mean that the guy was a pitfully poor stick.

5 does.

 

[Trash8Mofo]

What I'm talking about is a COMPREHENSIVE exam once you HAVE 1,500 hours, prior to starting your ATP training, that covers EVERY, SINGLE question on ALL the tests, private through commercial multi, the FAR's, the AIM, and THEN a CHECKRIDE that covers ALL maneuvers, judgment, and performance under pressure, prior to even STARTING the ATP training.

Not to mention high altitude aerodynamics, high speed aerodynamics, Crew scenarios, and probably even supersonic theories and considerations for the future. Overkill? Maybe. But I can say honestly that I myself am not comfortable with my own knowledge in these areas, and my plane can go to FL510 and does M0.92.


Similar to the MCAT or LSAT, make it a 4-6 hour marathon test covering EVERYTHING they should have learned. You can only take it twice, maybe three times in your lifetime, period. Fail, and you don't get another shot at it. Ever.

EXACTLY.

Once word gets around how tough it is to get INTO the program and, like others have said, limit the places you can obtain an ATP to 3 or 4 in the ENTIRE COUNTRY, and make it just as hard as getting your JAA license, THEN we'll be closer to ensuring safety by making sure only people who really have the aptitude to be pilots make it to the flight deck of an airliner...

Another factor that driving wages down are the young pilots' self-worth, or the lack thereof. Self-worth is in direct proportion to the amount of effort spent and sacrifices made. It would help if pilot selection have such an aptitude test that requires a solid 3 months full-time effort to prepare, and that one can only take 2-3 times ever. It would also send a warning to anyone who is thinking about becoming a pilot that after spending $20K and passed the commercial/instrument licenses, there is no guarantee for an ATP.

I encourage everyone to write their congressmen about this. This is the one time you can do something about what you get paid 5 years from now.

 

[NCFlyer]

I still think the story is not as simple as that. Look at the NASA tailplane icing video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ifKduc1hE8 . I wouldn't be surprised if this film wasn't in the back of his mind and immediately thought of tailplane icing when it pitched forward with flap deployment. An uncommanded raising of the flaps brought too many unknowns to react properly.

I agree.

I believe that they both were so concerned about icing and the possible tailplane stall that that is what he reacted to. Of course we will never know what was on his mind or what he was thinking. It seems that he did the correct tailplane stall recovery which only worsen the situation.

The aircraft went from straight & level at 170kts to stalled, in what 8-10 seconds, and neither of the pilots noticed the rapidly decreasing airspeed.

Truly tragic in more ways than 1.

 

[Lear70]

I encourage everyone to write their congressmen about this. This is the one time you can do something about what you get paid 5 years from now.

Absolutely!

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Here is what ALPA said about that:

Screening

Additionally, pilots today coming from non-military backgrounds often do not have the challenging experience of their predecessors on which to build – e.g. flying corporate, night freight, or flight instructing - before being hired at entry-level, or regional air carriers.

What??? I did all three of those. Flight instructing was a cakewalk, of course, but at least you learned the regs. The flight time was pretty much a throw-away.

The corporate flying I did was not much different than airline flying - minus the crappy schedule.

Night cargo? Night cargo is some of the hardest flying out there. Forget private pilot crap, cargo is where I learned to really fly.

Like I said, instructing is where most pilots really learn the guts of the regs, but shouldn't that be what we're doing when we are getting the Private, Comm, and Instr. ratings?

Maybe the changes coming down the pipe will raise pay for flight instructors and we'll get some experienced pilots back into the ranks of instructors.

 

[pilotyip]

Rich people advantage?

Two things: First, much of this discussion isn't really about safety, but more about supply and demand; more specifically, how to choke off supply dramatically by eliminating the puppy mills. If my basic econ class still applies, that makes the entry level pilot worth more, helping to reverse the current death spiral. Pass this law!

Has anyone thought that this may be just he recipe for those rich pilots whose daddy’s own an airplane or has lots of money to eliminate all of the poor trash trying to be pilots? It will become the career that rich people can pass down to their kids. Is this going to be a result of this?

 

[pilotyip]

Exactly

What???

Night cargo? Night cargo is some of the hardest flying out there. Forget private pilot crap, cargo is where I learned to really fly.

Maybe the changes coming down the pipe will raise pay for flight instructors and we'll get some experienced pilots back into the ranks of instructors.

Places like USA Jet, Kalitta, Ameristar is where you really learn to fly. The career success of our former employees confirms this fact.

 

[cjdriver]

Places like USA Jet, Kalitta, Ameristar is where you really learn to fly. The career success of our former employees confirms this fact.

The best pilots I've flown with were freight dogs, by far. You can build 1500 hours, and actually get a lot out of the process.

In regards to min qualifications, in the corporate world, both pilots are usually ATP's and typed in the aircraft. Why wouldn't the airlines require the same thing? It's ridiculous to have a multi-million dollar airplane and then save a few bucks on training for the operators.

 

[waveflyer]

I couldn't be happier w/ the agreement over the need to raise both academic and experience standards- well said Lear and others! And it IS a great comparison between the legal/ medical profession and us-

But here's the question- would each of us 'vetted' pilots be willing to go through the tougher academics to get up to par? I would! Absolutely. Welcome it.

 

[pilotyip]

College degree anyone?

I couldn't be happier w/ the agreement over the need to raise both academic and experience standards- well said Lear and others! And it IS a great comparison between the legal/ medical profession and us.

So like Doctors, Lawyers, and MBA's, we are going to make a college degree a per-req. for an ATP? From what college? What curriculum? on-campus or off-campus, pay your fee get your B?, what would determine the academic experience except a test like the MCAT, GMAT, ACT or SAT that put ATP candidates in the upper 15% of all people taking test? Kinda like the screening you need to get into the military, lets make 20/20 uncorrected a minimum for an ATP. Nothing but the absolute best..

 

[waveflyer]

Yip-
I'll bite- though I really think you're insecure and scared from a management perspective.
20/20 uncorrected isn't something you can control- academics is- I wasn't going that far- but I wouldn't object- I graduated magna cum laude from a good tough school- we operate - it's not book work that we do- but I can't help but think that if the colgan captain had a better understanding of what was going on - he would have been able to save himself and his passengers. Without researching it- I would support aligning our academics to JAA standards- no degree reqd- but a more legitimate and learning process . We all know our T/F 3-answer multiple choice- published answer tests are a complete 100% joke. How about we make it ' not a joke' and go from there ? Sound good?

 

[Clyde Frog]

So like Doctors, Lawyers, and MBA's, we are going to make a college degree a per-req. for an ATP? From what college? What curriculum? on-campus or off-campus,

Excellent idea pilotyip.

A four year degree in Aviation Science from an accredited institution should be required for the ATP. Absolutely.

 

[Kalifornia]

So like Doctors, Lawyers, and MBA's, we are going to make a college degree a per-req. for an ATP? From what college? What curriculum? on-campus or off-campus, pay your fee get your B?, what would determine the academic experience except a test like the MCAT, GMAT, ACT or SAT that put ATP candidates in the upper 15% of all people taking test? Kinda like the screening you need to get into the military, lets make 20/20 uncorrected a minimum for an ATP. Nothing but the absolute best..

Good god, 7200 posts at your age!!!??? This much devotion to downgrading this profession on here is beyond bizarre. From one hip in need of replacement, you'll shoot out the notion that this is an easy job that high school drop outs can do just fine at and then the other hip in need of replacement you shoot out that a typical 70 year is completely competent to handle the rigors of the crappy work conditions you now help create. You are an aviation legend, however not a respectable one.

 

[QOL_is_great:)]

1500 hours after 10 years of military service is pretty weak. Sounds like someone who was more interested in sitting at a desk instead of progressing in a flying career. In any case, tough. Mins are the min.

Not really!! Not sure what the current optempo is for home-station v. a deployed aviator, but 200-400 hrs a home-station does happen and has happened. Things have changed, but I'd like to here from some pure mil pilots out here and see what they are logging a year. With more deployments mil pilots are flying a lot more hours in a year. But with $$ going to the units overseas and less for returned units means lower flying hour programs for non-deployed units.

Being a military aviator isn't like a civilian Part 135 or 91 pilot who will sell their soul to log time. Hell, I saw it in the regional I worked were one guy was always picking up extra time and logged just shy of 1,000 hrs. for the year. Hey, all the power to him. A mil pilot can't do that since they each have additional duties. Most newly minted aviators don't like to sit behind any desk, trust me.

This change in hiring numbers is a long time coming. I hope we do see the ATP as a requirement. I also hope to see that a military pilot's record (hours) are consider within the revised reg so their service and experience can be applied in the civilian sector. It's done for doctors and lawyers.

 

[Clyde Frog]

Good god, 7200 posts at your age!!!??? This much devotion to downgrading this profession on here is beyond bizarre. From one hip in need of replacement, you'll shoot out the notion that this is an easy job that high school drop outs can do just fine at and then the other hip in need of replacement you shoot out that a typical 70 year is completely competent to handle the rigors of the crappy work conditions you now help create. You are an aviation legend, however not a respectable one.

I love this post.

 

[Raskal]

Excellent idea pilotyip.

A four year degree in Aviation Science from an accredited institution should be required for the ATP. Absolutely.

ROTFLMAO... "aviation science"! Good one!

 

[waveflyer]

The mil concern is a valid one- bit 1500 hrs isn't a lot- if you're not flying that much why not join the base flying club and make sure you log an extra 100 + hrs a year to make sure you hit the target- or even better- instruct- lite plane flying does teach you a lot- and instructing would give the single pilot guys some semblance of CRM and how to teach when you need to as a captain.

Most mil guys do meet the requirements - where the 1500 ATP really helps is at the regionals- it'll force a lot more pilots to go the 135 SPIFR route which gives you invaluable experience. I learned more in 4 months doing that than many full years of airline flying.

Just remember from the union standpoint it has to lead to higher wages (which is truly why so many regional pilots fly tired a lot- to pay the rent on weak wages). And higher wages are about the only pressure that could get some of this outsourcing back in the tent where it should be

Take 5 minutes and WRITE YOUR CONGRESSMAN TODAY- tell them who you are and that you want increased standards. Be heard! Think we finally have some motivation for them to listen

 

[ualdriver]

Has anyone thought that this may be just he recipe for those rich pilots whose daddy’s own an airplane or has lots of money to eliminate all of the poor trash trying to be pilots? It will become the career that rich people can pass down to their kids. Is this going to be a result of this?

How is that any different that what is happening right now? Countless people passed me early in my career, even though I had a much better academic record and better quality flight time because their parents paid for their job at Comair or Atlantic Coast.

Further, how is that any different than any other profession?

So like Doctors, Lawyers, and MBA's, we are going to make a college degree a per-req. for an ATP? From what college? What curriculum? on-campus or off-campus, pay your fee get your B?, what would determine the academic experience except a test like the MCAT, GMAT, ACT or SAT that put ATP candidates in the upper 15% of all people taking test? Kinda like the screening you need to get into the military, lets make 20/20 uncorrected a minimum for an ATP. Nothing but the absolute best..

Where did anyone say that a college degree was going to be a prerequisite? All anyone is saying is that the path to an ATP should be more academically challenging and they use other countries' certification path as an example. I agree it should be more challenging, particularly the written testing. What we have now is an absolute joke.

We don't need to turn this into a medical board certification, but we could look at how other professionals groups test their members (FINRA for financial professionals, Microsoft, Cisco certifications for computer professionals, etc.) and perhaps use them as examples. I have taken a FINRA written exam before and it was FAR harder than any written exam I have taken from the FAA. But it forced me to learn the material in order to pass the exam, vs. the "memorize the questions" format we use now.