Looks Like 1500 Hours May Become the New Hiring Minimum Among Other Things:

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Pure B.S.

Demand and Supply is the fundamental of Capitalism. It's econ 101. For an uneducated man, one who cannot get a point across without labeling it with some B.S. term, I surely can see why you would call yourself blue collar.

BTW, competition is also another capitalism concept, as in taking a standardized test and the best candidates get the best jobs.

What is not in the fabric of this country is greed: Selling yourself, your brothers, and your profession short.

Not sure where we are disagreeing... if pilot unions such as ALPA could control the number of pilots into the Part 121 airlines, thus, raising the value of pilots artifically.... is that socialist or capitalist?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

So you will just accept the pilots' profession as not worthwhile because management thinks we are not worthwhile? I hope you are not bargaining on behalf of any pilot groups because you have some serious self-esteem issue.

Hardly.... do you think you would be efffective if a pilot negotiator sat down at the table and tried to negotiate like a white collar professional?

Management has to control all costs, and they control their in-house counselors' cost too. Does that make these lawyer's blue-collar?

Nope... controlling cost and labor is not exclusive to white or blue collar... it is business...

All nurses, and some MDs have CBA.

I'd consider nurses blue collar. Certain MDs might.. but it is not hourly I suspect.

 

[Lear70]

Rez, we may agree on the problem most pilots have with their union involvement, but once again you have proven just how far out in left field you are, compared with the vast majority of airline pilots, or the public in general, most of whom would NOT consider us "blue collar".

I'd consider nurses blue collar. Certain MDs might.. but it is not hourly I suspect.

Last I checked, most doctors billed by the hour, especially surgeons. It gets coded by procedure, certainly, but make no mistake, a doctor bills appropriately for their time. Dont' believe me? Try this one: go and try to have surgery done and tell him or her that you know the surgery will take 4 hours, but you only want to pay them for one. See how far you get with that approach...

By the same metric, attorneys are paid by the hour; would you call THEM blue collar? I didn't think so.

And you wonder why no one listens to you for more than a couple posts...

Ditto what was previously said. Someone who believes we are "blue collar" has NO business representing pilots at the table or in an MEC voting position determining negotiating goals.

 

[Motown]

Hardly.... do you think you would be efffective if a pilot negotiator sat down at the table and tried to negotiate like a white collar professional?

I think it would be a welcomed change of pace. Others will never have a better opinion of ourselves than we do, and if we think of ourselves as blue collar workers than others will view us that way, too... especially at the bargaining table.

White collar has nothing to do with salary vs. hourly wages. The last time I hired an attorney I paid by the hour ($285/hr), and my attorney friends get paid by the hour. Another friend is a neurosurgeon and bills by the hour when he performs surgery. I don't suppose you'd call them blue collar workers, would you?

Both the medical and legal professions restrict the entrants to their professions by using their trade organizations-- the AMA and the ABA-- to certify university programs. It is not the Gov't placing limits on who can become a doctor or lawyer (socialism?), it is the doctors and lawyers themselves (capitalism?). Tell me why we can't do something similar? In order to work for an ALPA carrier, one must have graduated from an ALPA certified school and passed an ALPA administered exam. If you don't pass the exam, you can't be placed on the seniority list of the airline. That, together with a massive public media campaign touting the training and professionalism of an ALPA-certified pilot places pressure on airlines to use only certified pilots. (By the way, I used ALPA as an example... but it could be any newly-formed organization responsible for certifying schools and providing the entrance exam.)

This technique is used in many other situations. When I look for a doctor, I first check out the AMA website to see if they are a member and where they went to school. When I was a CFI I made sure to become a Gold Seal in order to stand out from the rest. If I had continued instructing instead of joining the airlines, I would have pursued the Master CFI certification. When I look for a vet for my dog, I look for AAHA certification.

I would assume that, in time, this could be a liability issue for airlines. If an acident investigation revealed that the airline did not use certified pilots, their liability may be increased... and their insurance premiums may be increased.

Obviously continuing to do what we've been doing isn't working. It's time for a new strategy.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez, we may agree on the problem most pilots have with their union involvement, but once again you have proven just how far out in left field you are, compared with the vast majority of airline pilots, or the public in general, most of whom would NOT consider us "blue collar".

And how is that working for us? Perhaps you see the disconnect. We've got a bunch of prima donna pilots who think they are white collar and expect management to treat them as so.... how is that working for us?

The public's perception of us is still rooted pre deregulation....

Last I checked, most doctors billed by the hour, especially surgeons. It gets coded by procedure, certainly, but make no mistake, a doctor bills appropriately for their time. Dont' believe me? Try this one: go and try to have surgery done and tell him or her that you know the surgery will take 4 hours, but you only want to pay them for one. See how far you get with that approach...

By the same metric, attorneys are paid by the hour; would you call THEM blue collar? I didn't think so.

They may bill by the hour, but don't they get paid a salary. Meaning, the hospital or firm pays the dr. or lawyer out of that hourly rate. I don't know I am not a dr. or lawyer. And that is the point... worrying about how these guys get paid is futile.

And you wonder why no one listens to you for more than a couple posts...

Ditto what was previously said. Someone who believes we are "blue collar" has NO business representing pilots at the table or in an MEC voting position determining negotiating goals.

Why the personal insults?

So when you go to the table and the govt and company view you as hourly labor, and the system is set up to negotaite as hourly labor... how is thinking white collar going help?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I think it would be a welcomed change of pace. Others will never have a better opinion of ourselves than we do, and if we think of ourselves as blue collar workers than others will view us that way, too... especially at the bargaining table.

Then we'll have to change the federal code.

White collar has nothing to do with salary vs. hourly wages. The last time I hired an attorney I paid by the hour ($285/hr), and my attorney friends get paid by the hour. Another friend is a neurosurgeon and bills by the hour when he performs surgery. I don't suppose you'd call them blue collar workers, would you?

Do they get dolalr for dollar? Or do the hospitals and firms get their cut?

Both the medical and legal professions restrict the entrants to their professions by using their trade organizations-- the AMA and the ABA-- to certify university programs. It is not the Gov't placing limits on who can become a doctor or lawyer (socialism?), it is the doctors and lawyers themselves (capitalism?). Tell me why we can't do something similar? In order to work for an ALPA carrier, one must have graduated from an ALPA certified school and passed an ALPA administered exam. If you don't pass the exam, you can't be placed on the seniority list of the airline. That, together with a massive public media campaign touting the training and professionalism of an ALPA-certified pilot places pressure on airlines to use only certified pilots. (By the way, I used ALPA as an example... but it could be any newly-formed organization responsible for certifying schools and providing the entrance exam.)

If it is a great idea... then I think it would be done. How does an organization control and certify entrants?

This technique is used in many other situations. When I look for a doctor, I first check out the AMA website to see if they are a member and where they went to school. When I was a CFI I made sure to become a Gold Seal in order to stand out from the rest. If I had continued instructing instead of joining the airlines, I would have pursued the Master CFI certification. When I look for a vet for my dog, I look for AAHA certification.

So how would that work for airline pilots? Once a pilot gets hired what incentive does he have to get a gold seal or Master class?

I would assume that, in time, this could be a liability issue for airlines. If an acident investigation revealed that the airline did not use certified pilots, their liability may be increased... and their insurance premiums may be increased.

Obviously continuing to do what we've been doing isn't working. It's time for a new strategy.

If it would be a liability, then I would bet the airlines would lobby against it. That would be the first battle ground...

 

[Motown]

Then we'll have to change the federal code.

Why? I don't recall anything in the Federal code specifying that we must be viewed as blue collar employees. In fact, a quick keyword search failed to hit on that word at all.

Do they get dolalr for dollar? Or do the hospitals and firms get their cut?

In the case of my neurosurgeon friend, he gets paid an hourly rate. What the facility charges the patient he doesn't know (or care). The patient doesn't pay his wage directly, just like our passengers don't pay our wage directly. Both clients (patients and passengers) pay the company (medical facility and airlines) for a service, and the service provider (surgeon and pilot) get paid an hourly wage for providing the service. (By the way, I need to tip my hat to my friend-- at 28 he just finished an 8-year neurosurgery residency, one of the youngest people to do so, and his sister is finishing her general residency at 25. He left last month for Israel where he will be working in an Army hospital for a 1-year fellowship seeing cases he'd never see regularly in the US. I've never seen someone work so hard and make it look so effortless.)

Likewise, in the case of my attorney friends, they bill clients $200 and $285 per hour, respectively, and they get paid $100 and $125 per hour respectively. (The 3rd friend wasn't home when I called a few minutes ago, so I don't know what he gets paid.)

If it is a great idea... then I think it would be done.

If you applied that logic to every new idea-- that it would have already been done if it were a great idea-- then we'd never have anything new, would we? "CSIRO 1996: If making Internet connections wireless is a great idea... then I think it would have been done" or "ALPA 1931: If establishing a collective bargaining agent for pilots is a great idea... then I think it would have been done."

How does an organization control and certify entrants?

Excellent question, and one I think ALPA or a newly formed group of concerned pilots should study. I am sure that a quick investigation of the history of the American Bar Association and the American Medical Association would teach us a lot.

So how would that work for airline pilots? Once a pilot gets hired what incentive does he have to get a gold seal or Master class?

I am sure that there are many ways to approach this. If we use my original example that a requirement of membership in ALPA is the passing of a Bar-type entrance exam, then any pilot hired at a current ALPA would have to have passed the exam in order to obtain ALPA membership. Public shame works well, too: "At ALPA, we only admit the best qualified pilots, pilots who have graduated an ALPA-certified school and are able to pass the ALPA-exam on the first or second attempt. Many call themselves pilots, but only a select few have earned the title ALPA Pilot. So the next time you book a ticket, be sure to ask the airline, 'Do you employ ALPA Pilots?' Your family deserves the best."

Trust me, peer pressure works well in a situation like this. When United Airlines employed the first nurse as a flight attendant in 1930, other airlines fell all over themselves to make sure that their flights had nurses on board, too. Nobody wanted to be viewed as 'less safe' than United Airlines. It was only because of WWII's need for nurses in the military that the requirement was relaxed at the airlines.

If it would be a liability, then I would bet the airlines would lobby against it. That would be the first battle ground...

I know it happens, but one would hope that an airline would never survive the PR disaster of campaigning AGAINST a perceived safety improvement. Let's take this ATP requirement as an example... the ATA is pushing to drop it, but their push is a quiet behind-the-scenes push. Nobody is running nationwide television ads touting the benefits of an all-ATP crew (the license, not the school). I think that ALPA should, and I'd gladly mail in a voluntary contribution for that cause. I suspect that if one airline starts advertising that every one of their flights has two ATP certified pilots on board, other airlines will be falling all over themselves to follow suit.

 

[waveflyer]

Rez- what are you talking about? How we negotiate our terms and whether it's collective or not- is IRRELEVANT to this issue. I know you have an agenda to get more participation and to get pilots to vote and support politicians who support our profession- so do I- (it's not a coincidence that this is being handled now w/ the current group of politicians) BUT YOU'RE LOSING SIGHT OF THE BALL ON THIS ONE. HUMAN NATURE EXISTS REGARDLESS OF WHETHER WE BARGAIN INDIVIDUALLY OR COLLECTIVELY. And so does SUPPLY and DEMAND.

If it gets harder to become a pilot AND stay a pilot- that will do two things- restrict the supply of pilots- you're right that that doesn't lead directly to increased wages- but it does give our unions leverage. What it secondly does is make us each individually less willing to accept low wages. THAT'S THE IMPORTANT THING. If you've spent any time listening to an FO at a regional tell you that what we do isn't important- and that it's not worth money- you'd see this problem. They haven't studied as hard as many of us. The process didn't require as much- They aren't as safe- but also think less of their worth. How many times have we been frustrated at sub-par contracts passing?

But do NOT get this twisted. This isn't only about money- It's about the FACT that i've flown with a lot of great professionals- but also a LOT of very poor pilots who are DANGEROUS. LITERALLY. These people are not weeded out- and management wants them employed. The weak links send a message that we are not valuable. That if we demand more money or a better work rules- there will always be somebody who's just glad to be employed who will do it. And since they aren't invested- that's a good argument to make.

If the wages are higher- it will attract more talented people who will do the job better. That's an argument everyday people can get around.

 

[rumrnr78]

There is no "Regional" nor "Mainline" ATP!! You idiots have let the public/politicians call the shots! What changes happened to mainline after Cali, Delta in DFW (2 times), Little Rock by AA, AA AirBus out of NY after 2001, SWA off the runaways in Burbank, Chicago and Amarillo (for example) took place? Nothing, cause they are considered professionals. I don't know if the regionals can save face cause they have let the majors (some pilots, only!!!!) and the public frame the debate.

 

[waveflyer]

MAKE THE CALL

Members of the Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure
U.S. House of Representatives
111th Congress
Majority (2165 RHOB) - (202) 225-4472
Minority (2163 RHOB) - (202) 225-9446
​

James L. Oberstar, Minnesota, Chairman

Democrats

• Nick J. Rahall, II, West Virginia
• Peter A. DeFazio, Oregon
• Jerry F. Costello, Illinois
• Eleanor Holmes Norton, District of Columbia
• Jerrold Nadler, New York
• Corrine Brown, Florida
• Bob Filner, California
• Eddie Bernice Johnson, Texas
• Gene Taylor, Mississippi
• Elijah E. Cummings, Maryland
• Leonard L. Boswell, Iowa
• Tim Holden, Pennsylvania
• Brian Baird, Washington
• Rick Larsen, Washington
• Michael E. Capuano, Massachusetts
• Timothy H. Bishop, New York
• Michael H. Michaud, Maine
• Russ Carnahan, Missouri
• Grace F. Napolitano, California
• Daniel Lipinski, Illinois
• Mazie K. Hirono, Hawaii
• Jason Altmire, Pennsylvania
• Timothy J. Walz, Minnesota
• Heath Shuler, North Carolina
• Michael A. Arcuri, New York
• Harry E. Mitchell, Arizona
• Christopher P. Carney, Pennsylvania
• John J. Hall, New York
• Steve Kagen, Wisconsin
• Steve Cohen, Tennessee
• Laura Richardson, California
• Albio Sires, New Jersey
• Donna F. Edwards, Maryland
• Solomon P. Ortiz, Texas
• Phil Hare, Illinois
• John A. Boccieri, Ohio
• Mark H. Schauer, Michigan
• Betsy Markey, Colorado
• Parker Griffith, Alabama
• Michael E. McMahon, New York
• Thomas S.P. Perriello, Virginia
• Dina Titus, Nevada
• Harry Teague, New Mexico
• Vacancy
• Republicans
  • John L. Mica, Florida, Ranking - Republican Member
  • Don Young, Alaska
  • Thomas E. Petri, Wisconsin
  • Howard Coble, North Carolina
  • John J. Duncan, Jr., Tennessee
  • Vernon J. Ehlers, Michigan
  • Frank A. LoBiondo, New Jersey
  • Jerry Moran, Kansas
  • Gary G. Miller, California
  • Henry E. Brown, South Carolina
  • Timothy V. Johnson, Illinois
  • Todd Russell Platts, Pennsylvania
  • Sam Graves, Missouri
  • Bill Shuster, Pennsylvania
  • John Boozman, Arkansas
  • Shelley Moore Capito, West Virginia
  • Jim Gerlach, Pennsylvania
  • Mario Diaz-Balart,Florida
  • Charles W. Dent, Pennsylvania
  • Connie Mack,Florida
  • Lynn A. Westmoreland, Georgia
  • Jean Schmidt, Ohio
  • Candice S. Miller, Michigan
  • Mary Fallin, Oklahoma
  • Vern Buchanan, Florida
  • Robert E. Latta, Ohio
  • Brett Guthrie, Kentucky
  • Anh "Joseph" Cao, Louisiana
  • Aaron Schock, Illinois
  • Pete Olson, Texas

 

[waveflyer]

WRITE YOUR CONGRESSMAN- MAKE THE CALL

Subcommittee on Aviation

U.S. House of Representatives
111th Congress
Majority (2251 RHOB) - (202) 225-9161
Minority (2251 RHOB) - (202) 226-3220
Jerry F. Costello, Illinois, Chairman
Members​

Issues in the Spotlight

• H.R. 3371 "Airline Safety and Pilots Training Act of 2009"
• H.R. 3371 Summary

http://transportation.house.gov/subcommittees/aviation.aspx

Subcommittee on Aviation

Jerry F. Costello, Illinois, Chairman​

[SIZE=-1]Russ Carnahan, Missouri Parker Griffith, Alabama
Michael E. McMahon, New York
Peter A. DeFazio, Oregon
Eleanor Holmes Norton, District of Columbia
Bob Filner, California
Eddie Bernice Johnson, Texas
Leonard L. Boswell, Iowa
Tim Holden, Pennsylvania
Michael E. Capuano, Massachusetts
Daniel Lipinski, Illinois
Mazie K. Hirono, Hawaii
Harry E. Mitchell, Arizona
John J. Hall, New York
Steve Cohen, Tennessee
Laura A. Richardson, California
John A. Boccieri, Ohio
Nick J. Rahall, II, West Virginia
Corrine Brown, Florida
Elijah E. Cummings, Maryland
Jason Altmire, Pennsylvania
Solomon P. Ortiz, Texas
Mark H. Schauer, Michigan
James L. Oberstar, Minnesota (ex officio)
Vacancy
[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Thomas E. Petri, Wisconsin, Ranking Member
Howard Coble, North Carolina
John J. Duncan, Jr., Tennessee
Vernon J. Ehlers, Michigan
Frank A. LoBiondo, New Jersey
Jerry Moran, Kansas
Sam Graves, Missouri
John Boozman, Arkansas
Shelley Moore Capito, West Virginia
Jim Gerlach, Pennsylvania
Charles W. Dent, Pennsylvania
Connie Mack, Florida
Lynn A. Westmoreland, Georgia
Jean Schmidt, Ohio
Mary Fallin, Oklahoma
Vern Buchanan, Florida
Brett Guthrie, Kentucky

[/SIZE]

 

[waveflyer]

This is worth more than any pissing contest whether it's mil/civ or regional/major.

Contact the Committee

2165 Rayburn House Office Building
Washington, DC 20515
Phone: (202) 225-4472
Fax: (202) 226-1270

 

[pilotyip]

Hello, what about the consumer

It seems that everyone is ignoring the consumer, except management who understand that keeping seats filled is the only things that creates and sustains pilot jobs. In the end the consumer will spend less dollars on airline tickets as the price goes up. The marginal propensity to consume is a powerful factor in the market place. Raising wages and resultant costs will be good for a few senior pilots and not so good for everyone else. Airline ABC is a gold seal ALPA endorsed best practices airline, LAX-JFK $400, XYZ is a new airline, not endorsed, LAX-JFK $350. Which one will have higher load factor?

 

[JustaNumber]

Pilotyip,
That's why everyone needs to play under the same rules. Just like the government mandating a higher quality TSA agent (sure they're still idiots but they're higher calibre idiots than pre-9/11), the government has a responsibility to the public to increase pilot quality.

You must admit that the combination of low regional wages and the ease of qualifying for the regional pilot position (two things that actually are cause and effect) has caused a reduction in the overall quality of pilots. The proposed legislation before congress would change that.

 

[pilotyip]

I am just an observer

Pilotyip,
That's why everyone needs to play under the same rules. Just like the government mandating a higher quality TSA agent (sure they're still idiots but they're higher calibre idiots than pre-9/11), the government has a responsibility to the public to increase pilot quality.

You must admit that the combination of low regional wages and the ease of qualifying for the regional pilot position (two things that actually are cause and effect) has caused a reduction in the overall quality of pilots. The proposed legislation before congress would change that.

I really have no dog in this fight. But I continue to post there will be unintended consequences of any action to change the status quo. I think I see a belief amongst the posters here that pay raises will go to everyone in the name of safety, stability, or whatever other reason is given to raise pay. Then it seems this is coupled with the belief that everything else will stay the same as it is now. That all pilots will do the same jobs they are doing right now except make more money with the same days off. I just do not believe the industry can absorb any additional costs and still sell tickets at the current prices. If tickets prices go up then passengers go down. Any change will good for a few senior guys and not so good for everyone else. Do whatever you guys want to do, it your industry just watch out what you ask for.

 

[ualdriver]

I really have no dog in this fight. But I continue to post there will be unintended consequences of any action to change the status quo. I think I see a belief amongst the posters here that pay raises will go to everyone in the name of safety, stability, or whatever other reason is given to raise pay. Then it seems this is coupled with the belief that everything else will stay the same as it is now. That all pilots will do the same jobs they are doing right now except make more money with the same days off. I just do not believe the industry can absorb any additional costs and still sell tickets at the current prices. If tickets prices go up then passengers go down. Any change will good for a few senior guys and not so good for everyone else. Do whatever you guys want to do, it your industry just watch out what you ask for.

1) 250 hr. pilots have no business being in the right seat of an airliner. If you argument is that we need to overlook this indiscretion in order to keep butts in seats- I don't care.

2) Pilots costs are an EXTREMELY low cost item as a percentage of an airline's total costs, around 2% of total costs for my airline according to the BTS website which compiles that sort of data. If the FAA raises minimum standards, we're talking about raising that small 2% by a small percentage. Seriously, how much do you really think this small, incremental cost is going to cost the consumer compared to, for example, today's increase in crude oil futures, up 3% today alone? I don't disagree that every time you increase costs by one penny, X amount less people fly, but that's a "risk," a small risk, I'm willing to take.

3) I think it will be good not just for senior pilots, but for junior pilots who are going to have an opportunity to earn a livable wage AND society as a whole because hopefully we'll see better qualified pilots flying jets around.

 

[Trash8Mofo]

It seems that everyone is ignoring the consumer, except management who understand that keeping seats filled is the only things that creates and sustains pilot jobs. In the end the consumer will spend less dollars on airline tickets as the price goes up. The marginal propensity to consume is a powerful factor in the market place. Raising wages and resultant costs will be good for a few senior pilots and not so good for everyone else.

More B.S.

1) Its not the pilots' job to advocate how to sell tickets, that's the management's job. The pilots don't need to fight our own fights and do your job too.

2)If a company can not pay it's employees and it's professional a respectable and reasonable wages and at the same time be profitable, then there is something wrong with it's business model.

As it is, airlines profit margins is so low that any hiccups would send the balance sheets into red figures, there is something wrong with that business model. That goes to show most airlines management inept.

 

[AC560]

As it is, airlines profit margins is so low that any hiccups would send the balance sheets into red figures, there is something wrong with that business model.

Correct and what needs to happen is that a couple airlines need to liquidate as we have more supply then demand can support in the market. What YIP is advocating keeps your job, what your advocating helps stock prices. I never really understood myself why the debt holders at many of the airlines just don't cash in or lock the unions out and hire lower paid scabs.

Where you go wrong though is "The pilots don't need to fight our own fights and do your job too.". If the airline liquidates you get to look forward to joining the bottom of a seniority list someplace else (maybe) with a tremendous cut in pay. If the airline merges you probably get forward to looking at the same. Management on the other hand will merely go work in another or the same industry (an accountant is an accountant) for the same or probably more pay. This gets back though to the fact that pilots have fundamentally screwed themselves as the means to their compensation (seniority versus contribution or skill) at most airlines.

My situation going from Tigers to the freight forwarding side isn't a great example as FedEx took pretty good care of everyone. We picked up a lot of office (supervisors/management/executives) people in the Eastern/Pan Am debacles though, most of them ended up doing the same or better then previous. The pilots didn't fair so well in either of those two situations.

Bottom line is pilots have no leverage of any kind today, everyone knows it. All a strike at UA for example would do is get management parachutes and put all the pilots on the street. What the unions need to be doing is figuring out how they can work more with management and create opportunities which strengthen the company through work rule changes (not necessarily salary changes) that also compensate the worker for greater efficiencies and profits. This isn't the 1960's and either the unions adapt to modern reality or they go away.

But the bottom line is pilots and management are in it together. Anyone who thinks otherwise is nuts.

 

[pilotyip]

BS Number

1) 2) Pilots costs are an EXTREMELY low cost item as a percentage of an airline's total costs, around 2% of total costs for my airline according to the BTS website which compiles that sort of data. If the FAA raises minimum standards, we're talking about raising that small 2% by a small percentage. Seriously, how much do you really think this small, incremental cost is going to cost the consumer compared to, for example, today's increase in crude oil futures, up 3% today alone? I don't disagree that every time you increase costs by one penny, X amount less people fly, but that's a "risk," a small risk, I'm willing to take.
.

From ATW, total airline employee compensation 26% to 45% of gross profit, depending upon the airline. Pilot make up the largest single segmentof total payrol. did not have the numbers, but it is most likely in the 15% to 20% of gross profit. If the pilot get a raise do all the other employees go without rasies. If all employees get raises, what happens to profits?

 

[pilotyip]

Nice dose of reality

But the bottom line is pilots and management are in it together. Anyone who thinks otherwise is nuts.

Nice to see some are figuring it out