Looks Like 1500 Hours May Become the New Hiring Minimum Among Other Things:

[Lear70]

From ATW, total airline employee compensation 26% to 45% of gross profit, depending upon the airline. Pilot make up the largest single segmentof total payrol. did not have the numbers, but it is most likely in the 15% to 20% of gross profit. If the pilot get a raise do all the other employees go without rasies. If all employees get raises, what happens to profits?

This just goes to show that you really don't understand how the PASSENGER airline cost structure works.

Pilots are not anywhere CLOSE to 15-20% of an airlines GROSS profit. Try about 10% of THAT number, between 1.5-2.0% of an airlines' COST per available seat mile. If a company is charging, on average, 5-7% above cost overall throughout the system, i.e. turning a profit, which only a few airlines are doing right now, you could double a pilot's TOTAL COMPENSATION package, including insurance, retirement, etc, and the airline would still make a profit with those margins.

This data, by the way, comes directly from 3rd party outside financial consultants who are paid to give unbiased data.

This is what you don't understand in your preaching about pilots somehow risking a company's liquidity over a REASONABLE pay raise which is at LEAST 3% PER YEAR. Otherwise, I work for less and less every year, while the company still gets to raise prices to cover their OTHER costs, i.e. fuel, parts, leases, insurance. I'm sorry, but that just doesn't work, and if a company can't cover the increased pilot costs as well, then they don't deserve to be in business, goodbye, sayonara, arrivederci, ciao, hasta la vista, kaput. I am sick to DEATH of employers getting away with that crap. Management can kiss my A$$ if they don't like it, and more pilots need to think that way and grow a pair.

 

[Kalifornia]

Nice to see some are figuring it out

And your not one of them as you are a complete management tool with the full time task of trying to abolish expectations on here of any improvement in pilot compensation and work rules in the industry.

 

[pilotyip]

Don't figure

Lets look at SWA one of the few profitable airlines, 5900 pilots, average annual salary, (guessing low, since many F/O's make that much) , = $100,000, total pilot annual payroll before benefits, $590,000,000, now use an industry standard of 1.35% for benfits, ='s $769,500,000. Profit last year $178,000,000. What percent is $769M of $178M on an annual basis? 430%. Pilot compensation is four times the amount of profit. Pilot compensation is also about 7% of gross revenue at SWA
SWA 2008 Financial Statistics:

• 
  [*]Net income: $178 million
  [*]Net income, excluding special items: $294 million
  [*]Total passengers carried: 101.9 million
  [*]Total RPMs: 73.5 billion
  [*]Average passenger load factor: 71.2 percent
  [*]Total operating revenue: $11.0 billion
  

 

[Nevets]

My guess would be pilot error.

I guess I worded my question poorly. I meant, was the cause of accidents that were attributed to pilot error in Europe the same as those here.

I suspect that if one airline starts advertising that every one of their flights has two ATP certified pilots on board, other airlines will be falling all over themselves to follow suit.

This is EXACTLY what NetJets does. They advertise that both pilots have at least 2500 TT and type ratings. Seems to work for them.

Lets look at SWA one of the few profitable airlines, 5900 pilots, average annual salary, guessing low , = $100,000, total pilot annual payroll before benefits, $590,000,000, now use an industry standard of 1.35% for benfits, ='s $769,500,000. Profit last quarter $57,000,000. What percent is $769M of $57M on an annual basis? 337%. Pilot compensation is four times the amount of profit.

How do those numbers work out when you compare it to total expenses and total income/revenue?

 

[waveflyer]

pilotyip's argument is exactly what the ATA does all day long with expensive lawyers- and frankly our own lobbyists have not kept up.

Does his argument make sense-- with that logic- SWA pilots should take a 75% paycut to even out the profit to pay ratio-- ?? And that's just to break even! ( never mind that he compared annual salaries with one quarter. ) Sorry yip- but on a average southwest flight- a capt will make $250 and the Fo $175- That same flight will burn 6000#'s of gas which at $3/ gal is $3000 -how much is the time value of money on that $40+ million jet for that flight? Now on the flipside- how much revenue did that same flight take in? Let's say the average ticket was a $100- and we had 37 extra seats unsold- $10,000 in revenue from passengers alone- now Cargo? How about monster drinks and alcohol? Heavy bags? - how much of a percentage is pilot pay again?
Is it challenging to run an airline? Absolutely- but these slewed numbered arguments have been tired for a long time yip. We're just not falling for them anymore. How about we just set up our compensation like real estate agents and get 3% of the revenue? That's a simple number that would double pilot pay overnight and everyone would know that it wasn't OUR pay that sank the ship.

If you honestly think the ship sinks or swims based on pilot pay - even on the old contracts circa 2000- you're an idiot. Never even close. The numbers just don't back that up.

 

[waveflyer]

We should advertise the resumes of our pilots- that's one of the problems is that public doesn't know how experienced their pilots are. Almost every passenger i talk to makes huge assumptions as to the experience and qualifications of their pilots. They trust that the regulators have handled it- Those colgan passengers had no idea their captain came from the most corrupt pilot farm in the country. There's no mechanism in this outsourced world of domestic flying, to know whether or not your pilot has 3000 hours total between the two pilots or 30,000 hours total. Therefore- how can the customer make an informed decision?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Nice to see some are figuring it out

Unfortunately, management, who controls the airlines, doesn't see it that way. Labor is their liability....

 

[ualdriver]

From ATW, total airline employee compensation 26% to 45% of gross profit, depending upon the airline. Pilot make up the largest single segmentof total payrol. did not have the numbers, but it is most likely in the 15% to 20% of gross profit. If the pilot get a raise do all the other employees go without rasies. If all employees get raises, what happens to profits?

Who cares yip? Every raise every employee working at every company on the planet eats into company profits. Should employees not expect raises because of that? What happens to profits if all employees get raises? Profits go down......or......a company can raise the price of their product to reflect those higher costs. How they choose to pass along their higher costs is what the CEO gets paid the big bucks for. Since it's going to be an industry wide cost increase if this legislation stands, I'm not terribly concerned.

I thought the point you were trying to make was that if we try to protect the general population from inexperienced regional airline pilots that less people will fly because costs will go up. I already told you I agree. I also believe that this cost will be so small that it will be negligible and is certainly an acceptable risk to me, and I'm working at a financially fragile airline. We're talking about a small percentage of a small percentage of an airline's total costs going up. If this costs a regional airline more than a percentage point or two of total operational costs (1 or 2 bucks on $100), I'd be surprised.

 

[AC560]

Unfortunately, management, who controls the airlines, doesn't see it that way. Labor is their liability....

Labor is its own liability and frankly the results of the last 20yrs support that. Scope, pay, benefits, job security, the wholesale elimination of 10,000's of non-pilot union jobs at the airlines, etc.

Bang the management sucks and lets dig our heels in boys mantra all you want. Fact remains it isn't working. Management has nothing to lose, labor has everything to lose.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Labor is its own liability and frankly the results of the last 20yrs support that. Scope, pay, benefits, job security, the wholesale elimination of 10,000's of non-pilot union jobs at the airlines, etc.

Bang the management sucks and lets dig our heels in boys mantra all you want. Fact remains it isn't working. Management has nothing to lose, labor has everything to lose.

Agreed.... and this is an acceptable paradigm?

 

[pilotyip]

Got me wrong.

If you honestly think the ship sinks or swims based on pilot pay - even on the old contracts circa 2000- you're an idiot. Never even close. The numbers just don't back that up.

Got me wrong, I was countering a post above that pilot salaries were only a small part of gross profit. They are in fact a large part. I am not saying change salaries, I am pointing out there is not much margin in the airline business and any change to costs will have consequences, many of them unforeseen.

 

[AC560]

Agreed.... and this is an acceptable paradigm?

The paradigm is for you to change. Though looking at 90% of the threads on the first page of the majors forums it is pretty obvious that you guys couldn't organize a bake sale let alone a revolution in labor.

 

[pilotyip]

Funny

The paradigm is for you to change. Though looking at 90% of the threads on the first page of the majors forums it is pretty obvious that you guys couldn't organize a bake sale let alone a revolution in labor.

Now that is funny!

 

[Lear70]

Lets look at SWA one of the few profitable airlines, 5900 pilots, average annual salary, (guessing low, since many F/O's make that much) , = $100,000, total pilot annual payroll before benefits, $590,000,000, now use an industry standard of 1.35% for benfits, ='s $769,500,000. Profit last year $178,000,000. What percent is $769M of $178M on an annual basis? 430%. Pilot compensation is four times the amount of profit. Pilot compensation is also about 7% of gross revenue at SWA
SWA 2008 Financial Statistics:

• 
  [*]Net income: $178 million
  [*]Net income, excluding special items: $294 million
  [*]Total passengers carried: 101.9 million
  [*]Total RPMs: 73.5 billion
  [*]Average passenger load factor: 71.2 percent
  [*]Total operating revenue: $11.0 billion

How many times net profit are aircraft leases?
Fuel costs?
Combined non-pilot compensation for all other employee groups?

It doesn't matter, as long as a company is covering their costs and still making a profit. That's what you don't get. I don't give a d@mn how much my salary is of total income at a company, as long as it's profitable, I deserve to be paid a fair wage for my contribution to the company's operations. If they can't afford a fair wage, they don't need to be in business.

Southwest is a great example, thank you. An airline that can afford to pay their pilots 7 times Gross Revenue and STILL turn a profit.

Now imagine all the REST of the airlines out there where pilot compensation is only 2% or so of Gross Revenue. If Southwest can afford to pay more than 3 times that, then so can everyone else. Thank you for making my point for me...

 

[waveflyer]

Got me wrong, I was countering a post above that pilot salaries were only a small part of gross profit. They are in fact a large part. I am not saying change salaries, I am pointing out there is not much margin in the airline business and any change to costs will have consequences, many of them unforeseen.

sound the bells! The mysterious 'consequences'!!
I think it would have a big affect on your company- not much on majors- the biggest on "regionals"- and that's kind of the point inexperienced pilots have ended up doing mainline domestic flying and it's not right to anyone involved- ESP pilots and passengers- there's simply a better way-

Call your congressman today- you'll be surprised how little they know on this subject- call the papers- we can't wait! Now is the time

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The paradigm is for you to change. Though looking at 90% of the threads on the first page of the majors forums it is pretty obvious that you guys couldn't organize a bake sale let alone a revolution in labor.

It seems most American consumers readily cut down American workers. Pilots will complain about $99 fares but then run to big box stores to get the cheapest price.....

You speak from the luxury of not having responsbility.....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Got me wrong, I was countering a post above that pilot salaries were only a small part of gross profit. They are in fact a large part. I am not saying change salaries, I am pointing out there is not much margin in the airline business and any change to costs will have consequences, many of them unforeseen.

Safety cost money. Who is going to pay for it? Who should pay for it?

 

[CrimsonEclipse]

The paradigm is for you to change. Though looking at 90% of the threads on the first page of the majors forums it is pretty obvious that you guys couldn't organize a bake sale let alone a revolution in labor.

That's beautiful man....

 

[AC560]

You speak from the luxury of not having responsbility.....

I speak from the luxury of being a trained professional who is highly desired and compensated in my field for my ability to achieve results. You speak as somebody whose only worth is his seniority number.

We both chose what we would be judged on.

 

[Flyprdu]

I speak from the luxury of being a trained professional who is highly desired and compensated in my field for my ability to achieve results. You speak as somebody whose only worth is his seniority number.

We both chose what we would be judged on.

...says the best damn burger flipper in all Genessee County.