Looks Like 1500 Hours May Become the New Hiring Minimum Among Other Things:

[pilotyip]

Got me wrong.

If you honestly think the ship sinks or swims based on pilot pay - even on the old contracts circa 2000- you're an idiot. Never even close. The numbers just don't back that up.

Got me wrong, I was countering a post above that pilot salaries were only a small part of gross profit. They are in fact a large part. I am not saying change salaries, I am pointing out there is not much margin in the airline business and any change to costs will have consequences, many of them unforeseen.

 

[AC560]

Agreed.... and this is an acceptable paradigm?

The paradigm is for you to change. Though looking at 90% of the threads on the first page of the majors forums it is pretty obvious that you guys couldn't organize a bake sale let alone a revolution in labor.

 

[pilotyip]

Funny

The paradigm is for you to change. Though looking at 90% of the threads on the first page of the majors forums it is pretty obvious that you guys couldn't organize a bake sale let alone a revolution in labor.

Now that is funny!

 

[Lear70]

Lets look at SWA one of the few profitable airlines, 5900 pilots, average annual salary, (guessing low, since many F/O's make that much) , = $100,000, total pilot annual payroll before benefits, $590,000,000, now use an industry standard of 1.35% for benfits, ='s $769,500,000. Profit last year $178,000,000. What percent is $769M of $178M on an annual basis? 430%. Pilot compensation is four times the amount of profit. Pilot compensation is also about 7% of gross revenue at SWA
SWA 2008 Financial Statistics:

• 
  [*]Net income: $178 million
  [*]Net income, excluding special items: $294 million
  [*]Total passengers carried: 101.9 million
  [*]Total RPMs: 73.5 billion
  [*]Average passenger load factor: 71.2 percent
  [*]Total operating revenue: $11.0 billion

How many times net profit are aircraft leases?
Fuel costs?
Combined non-pilot compensation for all other employee groups?

It doesn't matter, as long as a company is covering their costs and still making a profit. That's what you don't get. I don't give a d@mn how much my salary is of total income at a company, as long as it's profitable, I deserve to be paid a fair wage for my contribution to the company's operations. If they can't afford a fair wage, they don't need to be in business.

Southwest is a great example, thank you. An airline that can afford to pay their pilots 7 times Gross Revenue and STILL turn a profit.

Now imagine all the REST of the airlines out there where pilot compensation is only 2% or so of Gross Revenue. If Southwest can afford to pay more than 3 times that, then so can everyone else. Thank you for making my point for me...

 

[waveflyer]

Got me wrong, I was countering a post above that pilot salaries were only a small part of gross profit. They are in fact a large part. I am not saying change salaries, I am pointing out there is not much margin in the airline business and any change to costs will have consequences, many of them unforeseen.

sound the bells! The mysterious 'consequences'!!
I think it would have a big affect on your company- not much on majors- the biggest on "regionals"- and that's kind of the point inexperienced pilots have ended up doing mainline domestic flying and it's not right to anyone involved- ESP pilots and passengers- there's simply a better way-

Call your congressman today- you'll be surprised how little they know on this subject- call the papers- we can't wait! Now is the time

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The paradigm is for you to change. Though looking at 90% of the threads on the first page of the majors forums it is pretty obvious that you guys couldn't organize a bake sale let alone a revolution in labor.

It seems most American consumers readily cut down American workers. Pilots will complain about $99 fares but then run to big box stores to get the cheapest price.....

You speak from the luxury of not having responsbility.....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Got me wrong, I was countering a post above that pilot salaries were only a small part of gross profit. They are in fact a large part. I am not saying change salaries, I am pointing out there is not much margin in the airline business and any change to costs will have consequences, many of them unforeseen.

Safety cost money. Who is going to pay for it? Who should pay for it?

 

[CrimsonEclipse]

The paradigm is for you to change. Though looking at 90% of the threads on the first page of the majors forums it is pretty obvious that you guys couldn't organize a bake sale let alone a revolution in labor.

That's beautiful man....

 

[AC560]

You speak from the luxury of not having responsbility.....

I speak from the luxury of being a trained professional who is highly desired and compensated in my field for my ability to achieve results. You speak as somebody whose only worth is his seniority number.

We both chose what we would be judged on.

 

[Flyprdu]

I speak from the luxury of being a trained professional who is highly desired and compensated in my field for my ability to achieve results. You speak as somebody whose only worth is his seniority number.

We both chose what we would be judged on.

...says the best damn burger flipper in all Genessee County.

 

[AC560]

...says the best damn burger flipper in all Genessee County.

Which with overtime puts me ahead in terms of salary to most of the people on this thread and I get all the free cheese fries I can eat.

 

[Flyprdu]

Which with overtime puts me ahead in terms of salary to most of the people on this thread and I get all the free cheese fries I can eat.

Touche.

 

[deadstick]

It's all about the numbers.

Management's default response to proposals is that it cost too much, or the margin isn't there, or...

I agree with some of the concepts that AC560, and yes, yip, have put out here. With Orbitz, priceline, and travelcity, a $5 difference in fare can be the difference. Those sites don't list services included in the price (or crew qualifications), just the bottom line. Midwest sited these internet clearing houses as a reason their business fell off. People (not from the MKE area) who were looking online for a ticket from A to B, saw a cheaper fare (by $20-40) and didn't have a clue about the meals (from back in the day) or the Signature seating. They just saw the $$$. I personally think that was Midwest's fault for not doing more advertising, but that is just me.

BUT, the American consumer has his/her breaking point. Just look at fuel sales when gas was $5/gal. People stopped driving. If we lose too much capacity (several companies going Ch7) and prices increase too much, demand will decline with supply.

SO, even if pilot pay accounts for 5%, but you have to hire 20% more pilots to comply with the new rules, then that cost just went up to 6% (lumping new hire training cost w/pay since they'd all be 1yr scale).

The problem I have with the managements' claims is that the accounting practices seem to mirroe Arthur Anderson's Enron operation. The flexibility to take various write-downs (at will it seems) appears to give them the leverage to manipulate the numbers. The company can appear profitable or weak at will. It's some freaky smoke-n-mirrors, voodoo bookkeeping.

 

[pilotyip]

Not the point

It's all about the numbers.
I agree with some of the concepts that AC560, and yes, yip, have put out here. With Orbitz, priceline, and travelcity, a $5 difference in fare can be the difference. Those sites don't list services included in the price (or crew qualifications), just the bottom line. Midwest sited these internet clearing houses as a reason their business fell off. People (not from the MKE area) who were looking online for a ticket from A to B, saw a cheaper fare (by $20-40) and didn't have a clue about the meals (from back in the day) or the Signature seating. They just saw the $$$. I personally think that was Midwest's fault for not doing more advertising, but that is just me.

Thank You, you have recognized the bigger picture outside the cockpit.

Safety cost money. Who is going to pay for it? Who should pay for it?

It is not about safety, the consumer experiences the most dangerous part of his trip driving to the airport. The consumer sees one thing, how much does it cost, everything else counts for little to the middle income airline ticket purchaser. It is not management, pilots, safetry, regulation. It is the the middle income airline ticket purchase, the person buying the ticket that drives the entiore airline industry. You to deal with that reality.

 

[ualdriver]

The paradigm is for you to change. Though looking at 90% of the threads on the first page of the majors forums it is pretty obvious that you guys couldn't organize a bake sale let alone a revolution in labor.

Wow, another ALPA basher with a cute little phrase that probably doesn't have a clue what ALPA has done, continues to do, and will do for airline pilots. It's not ALPA's fault that this industry operates on narrow profit margins, is highly, highly cyclical, highly regulated with an antilabor tilt, and suffers and continues to suffer from a huge oversupply of pilots. No matter what union an industry like that has, bad things are going to happen to pilots- and have. To make the implication that ALPA is poorly organized largely because of the conditions that exist outside of ALPA's control makes me wonder about your "specialness" implied in the next statement.

I speak from the luxury of being a trained professional who is highly desired and compensated in my field for my ability to achieve results. You speak as somebody whose only worth is his seniority number.

We both chose what we would be judged on.

Again, lame. What is it AC560, that you do that makes you so special? Please tell us. If you're still a pilot, what a cheap shot to disparage a fellow pilot implying that he's only worth his seniority number. Every airline pilot in the industry is tied to a seniority number, union or non-union, and if you choose to work in the airline industry, that's what your stuck with. Airline industry pilots jobs were some of the most sought after and competitive jobs one could obtain, and most of us see that in the quality of the people we work with. To imply that he or anyone else is using a seniority number to hide from our inabilities to do anything else......give me a break.

Thank You, you have recognized the bigger picture outside the cockpit.

It is not about safety, the consumer experiences the most dangerous part of his trip driving to the airport. The consumer sees one thing, how much does it cost, everything else counts for little to the middle income airline ticket purchaser. It is not management, pilots, safetry, regulation. It is the the middle income airline ticket purchase, the person buying the ticket that drives the entiore airline industry. You to deal with that reality.

Actually, you illustrate how clueless the typical airline passenger is, and I agree with you. All the more reason they need regulations like this one to protect themselves from the downward spiral in the industry they're creating, without even knowing it.