Looks Like 1500 Hours May Become the New Hiring Minimum Among Other Things:

[NavinRJohnson]

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What is the leading cause of pilot error accidents in Europe compared to US pilots?

My guess would be pilot error.

 

[igneousy2]

The European commercial pilots do not have a better safety record than U.S. pilots despite their "rigorous" exams and training.

That's because they don't have the depth of experience that the US airline industry has. In Europe they have 500 hour pilots flying across the Atlantic in 777's.

I submit that the US industry is safe as a whole ON AVERAGE because of it's history which has little to do with it's future.

When I took my first flight lesson in the late 80's my CFI had 3000 hours total time and was looking for a regional job. When I got hired at a regional I was the 2nd lowest time member of my class with 1600 hours total time at a regional airline that had never hired anyone with less than ATP qualifications...until a year later. When I flew as a Regional FO all of the Captains I flew with had 6000-8000 plus hours at a minimum. As an FO at a major today I had over 6000 when I was hired and I would guess that I haven't flown with a Captain with less than 20,000 hours yet. The right seat has been a great apprentiship for me with some great airmen with a vast variety of experience. I imagine most of my civilian counter-parts at a similar stage in their careers have experienced very similar stories. I guess my main point is the FAA minimums never really mattered because by the time anybody got remotely close to having to have any kind of responsibility as an airline pilot they had so far exceeded the minimums that it rendered the minimums moot.

5 years ago pilot minimums started really falling to ridicules numbers 1000 then 500 now Commercial Multi. At first this wasn't a big deal because you still had some "orginizational knowledge" at the regionals and these 250 hour wonder pilots could soak up what they could before they were made Captains. As majors continued to hire, however, the experience level at the regionals has continued to fall rapidly.

Now a new student flies with an instructor who barely kinows more than they do as they only have 300-500 hours themselves, gets hired at a regional, then flies with a Captain with 2000 hours who barely knows anything...and the beat goes on.

I think requiring an ATP to be an FO is a good start and I also think that the FAA also needs to increase the experience level to be a Captain to at least around 1500-2000 hours as an SIC at an airline or similar operation.

Our current safety AVERAGE is still good because MOST of the flying is still being done by very experienced pilots. If you look at the rash of regional fatals recently and consider that they still make up only a fraction of the departures...over time the AVERAGE will slowly get worse if the current situation is allowed to persist. it is an alarming trend.

As far as the military guy that couldn't average 12 hours a month...I 2nd the notion that he was a slug because he COULD have went to the aero club and rented a 172 a few times and easily had his 1500 hours within his 10 year career. I'm sorry but I don't sympathize with some of the military guys that are whiners because in my view 1500 hours is not a very high bar and it doesn't take much effort to make sure you get it. If you are only flying 12 hours a month on average for 10 years...and these are the first 10 years of your flying career...then you are really not learning enough regardless of what kind of fancy airplane you are flying. A friend of mine was a Command SGT Major for an Engineering Battalion. About 4 years before he retired he took his first flight lesson. In those 4 years he got every rating from Private through MEI. He got his Citation X type and ATP right after he retired. He instructed on the weekends and was on-call at a local night freight hauler. He started his first flying job on a citation X about 3 months after retiring from the Army. "I don't have 1500 hours because I was a fighter pilot!!!WAAAHHHHH!!!!"


later

 

[tyuwerty]

Canadian commercial pilots have no better safety record than their U.S. counterparts despite their in depth exams.

Can you back that statement up with some facts?

When was the last Fatal crash at the regional or major level in Canada? I can only think of the Air Canada RJ back maybe 12 years ago that went off the end of a rwy on the east coast.

I just looked it up, the crash above had no fatalities and was in 1997.

I think you have to go to the early 90's to find an example at the regional/major level.

In the states we have easy examples of Colgan, Pinnacle, Comair. all in the last few years.

 

[Papa Woody]

An unbeleiveably simple answer to this whole mess! Stop letting airlines masquarade as someone else!

Exactly.

Majors aren't even called "Airlines" anymore....

...the new technically correct term, used in all important (financial, regulatory, legal) documents is: "Airline Operator."

The majority of the tickets issued by a "Major" airline include a segment on a contract "airline." They just market the seats.

That's why wages suck, service blows, and planes crash. (Lexington, Buffalo are cases in point.)

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The medical and legal field limits it's supply by controlling the requirements to pass the bar, etc.

Why can't pilots do the same for our field?

Are you sure about that?

Even so... we are blue collar labor with CBAs. Drs. and Lawyers don't have CBAs. Controlling the supply of blue collar labor is not a free market caveat. That is called socialism by many.

Why is it airline pilots are good ol' free market idealist..... except when it comes to their career... then suddenly they want all the govt intervention needed to provide a stable and secure career?

 

[Lear70]

Are you sure about that?

Even so... we are blue collar labor with CBAs. Drs. and Lawyers don't have CBAs. Controlling the supply of blue collar labor is not a free market caveat. That is called socialism by many.

Why is it airline pilots are good ol' free market idealist..... except when it comes to their career... then suddenly they want all the govt intervention needed to provide a stable and secure career?

Sorry, but college educated with advanced training that takes YEARS to accumulate is NOT "Blue Collar".

Blue Collar is my janitor, my plumber, my electrician, my air conditioning tech, my pool guy, people who do MANUAL labor with a few weeks or months of on-the-job training requiring and who aren't subject to continued training and testing, and whose cognitive, reasoning, and crisis-solving skills aren't necessary for the safety of thousands of people a year.

I suggest you reexamine your definition of blue collar, although I know you won't, you've been barking up this blue collar tree for as long as I can remember, and no one's buying it except you and a few management cronies.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Right on, Lear70.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Sorry.... you can view yourself and us however you wish... to the govt and management we are hourly blue collar labor. We are no different that to them than the aircraft cleaners... a cost to be controlled.

Sorry, but college educated with advanced training that takes YEARS to accumulate is NOT "Blue Collar".

Blue Collar is my janitor, my plumber, my electrician, my air conditioning tech, my pool guy, people who do MANUAL labor with a few weeks or months of on-the-job training requiring and who aren't subject to continued training and testing, and whose cognitive, reasoning, and crisis-solving skills aren't necessary for the safety of thousands of people a year.

I suggest you reexamine your definition of blue collar, although I know you won't, you've been barking up this blue collar tree for as long as I can remember, and no one's buying it except you and a few management cronies.

Does managment treat you like a janitor, plumber, electrician or a pool guy? Or do they treat you like a college education white collar professional.

You need to understand the realm in which we operate. When you go to CapHill we are viewed as organized blue collar labor....

Who amongts us that is also college educated with advanced training belongs to a labor union that negoatiates hourly rates in collective bargaining agreements. Doctors? Lawyers? Architechs?

This is a major flaw in Air Line Pilot thinking.... to believe we are something we are not is counter productive.

I don't disagree with your thinking.. We are highly trained college educated professionals.. and we should act the part.... even when professionalism and safety cards are used against us...

But when we deal with managment and govt.... we are who we are....

 

[Trash8Mofo]

Controlling the supply of blue collar labor is not a free market caveat. That is called socialism by many.

Pure B.S.

Demand and Supply is the fundamental of Capitalism. It's econ 101. For an uneducated man, one who cannot get a point across without labeling it with some B.S. term, I surely can see why you would call yourself blue collar.

BTW, competition is also another capitalism concept, as in taking a standardized test and the best candidates get the best jobs.

What is not in the fabric of this country is greed: Selling yourself, your brothers, and your profession short.

 

[Trash8Mofo]

Sorry.... you can view yourself and us however you wish... to the govt and management we are hourly blue collar labor.

We are no different that to them than the aircraft cleaners... a cost to be controlled.

Who amongts us that is also college educated with advanced training belongs to a labor union that negoatiates hourly rates in collective bargaining agreements. Doctors? Lawyers? Architechs?

So you will just accept the pilots' profession as not worthwhile because management thinks we are not worthwhile? I hope you are not bargaining on behalf of any pilot groups because you have some serious self-esteem issue.

Management has to control all costs, and they control their in-house counselors' cost too. Does that make these lawyer's blue-collar?

All nurses, and some MDs have CBA.