Looks Like 1500 Hours May Become the New Hiring Minimum Among Other Things:

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Pure B.S.

Demand and Supply is the fundamental of Capitalism. It's econ 101. For an uneducated man, one who cannot get a point across without labeling it with some B.S. term, I surely can see why you would call yourself blue collar.

BTW, competition is also another capitalism concept, as in taking a standardized test and the best candidates get the best jobs.

What is not in the fabric of this country is greed: Selling yourself, your brothers, and your profession short.

Not sure where we are disagreeing... if pilot unions such as ALPA could control the number of pilots into the Part 121 airlines, thus, raising the value of pilots artifically.... is that socialist or capitalist?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

So you will just accept the pilots' profession as not worthwhile because management thinks we are not worthwhile? I hope you are not bargaining on behalf of any pilot groups because you have some serious self-esteem issue.

Hardly.... do you think you would be efffective if a pilot negotiator sat down at the table and tried to negotiate like a white collar professional?

Management has to control all costs, and they control their in-house counselors' cost too. Does that make these lawyer's blue-collar?

Nope... controlling cost and labor is not exclusive to white or blue collar... it is business...

All nurses, and some MDs have CBA.

I'd consider nurses blue collar. Certain MDs might.. but it is not hourly I suspect.

 

[Lear70]

Rez, we may agree on the problem most pilots have with their union involvement, but once again you have proven just how far out in left field you are, compared with the vast majority of airline pilots, or the public in general, most of whom would NOT consider us "blue collar".

I'd consider nurses blue collar. Certain MDs might.. but it is not hourly I suspect.

Last I checked, most doctors billed by the hour, especially surgeons. It gets coded by procedure, certainly, but make no mistake, a doctor bills appropriately for their time. Dont' believe me? Try this one: go and try to have surgery done and tell him or her that you know the surgery will take 4 hours, but you only want to pay them for one. See how far you get with that approach...

By the same metric, attorneys are paid by the hour; would you call THEM blue collar? I didn't think so.

And you wonder why no one listens to you for more than a couple posts...

Ditto what was previously said. Someone who believes we are "blue collar" has NO business representing pilots at the table or in an MEC voting position determining negotiating goals.

 

[Motown]

Hardly.... do you think you would be efffective if a pilot negotiator sat down at the table and tried to negotiate like a white collar professional?

I think it would be a welcomed change of pace. Others will never have a better opinion of ourselves than we do, and if we think of ourselves as blue collar workers than others will view us that way, too... especially at the bargaining table.

White collar has nothing to do with salary vs. hourly wages. The last time I hired an attorney I paid by the hour ($285/hr), and my attorney friends get paid by the hour. Another friend is a neurosurgeon and bills by the hour when he performs surgery. I don't suppose you'd call them blue collar workers, would you?

Both the medical and legal professions restrict the entrants to their professions by using their trade organizations-- the AMA and the ABA-- to certify university programs. It is not the Gov't placing limits on who can become a doctor or lawyer (socialism?), it is the doctors and lawyers themselves (capitalism?). Tell me why we can't do something similar? In order to work for an ALPA carrier, one must have graduated from an ALPA certified school and passed an ALPA administered exam. If you don't pass the exam, you can't be placed on the seniority list of the airline. That, together with a massive public media campaign touting the training and professionalism of an ALPA-certified pilot places pressure on airlines to use only certified pilots. (By the way, I used ALPA as an example... but it could be any newly-formed organization responsible for certifying schools and providing the entrance exam.)

This technique is used in many other situations. When I look for a doctor, I first check out the AMA website to see if they are a member and where they went to school. When I was a CFI I made sure to become a Gold Seal in order to stand out from the rest. If I had continued instructing instead of joining the airlines, I would have pursued the Master CFI certification. When I look for a vet for my dog, I look for AAHA certification.

I would assume that, in time, this could be a liability issue for airlines. If an acident investigation revealed that the airline did not use certified pilots, their liability may be increased... and their insurance premiums may be increased.

Obviously continuing to do what we've been doing isn't working. It's time for a new strategy.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez, we may agree on the problem most pilots have with their union involvement, but once again you have proven just how far out in left field you are, compared with the vast majority of airline pilots, or the public in general, most of whom would NOT consider us "blue collar".

And how is that working for us? Perhaps you see the disconnect. We've got a bunch of prima donna pilots who think they are white collar and expect management to treat them as so.... how is that working for us?

The public's perception of us is still rooted pre deregulation....

Last I checked, most doctors billed by the hour, especially surgeons. It gets coded by procedure, certainly, but make no mistake, a doctor bills appropriately for their time. Dont' believe me? Try this one: go and try to have surgery done and tell him or her that you know the surgery will take 4 hours, but you only want to pay them for one. See how far you get with that approach...

By the same metric, attorneys are paid by the hour; would you call THEM blue collar? I didn't think so.

They may bill by the hour, but don't they get paid a salary. Meaning, the hospital or firm pays the dr. or lawyer out of that hourly rate. I don't know I am not a dr. or lawyer. And that is the point... worrying about how these guys get paid is futile.

And you wonder why no one listens to you for more than a couple posts...

Ditto what was previously said. Someone who believes we are "blue collar" has NO business representing pilots at the table or in an MEC voting position determining negotiating goals.

Why the personal insults?

So when you go to the table and the govt and company view you as hourly labor, and the system is set up to negotaite as hourly labor... how is thinking white collar going help?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I think it would be a welcomed change of pace. Others will never have a better opinion of ourselves than we do, and if we think of ourselves as blue collar workers than others will view us that way, too... especially at the bargaining table.

Then we'll have to change the federal code.

White collar has nothing to do with salary vs. hourly wages. The last time I hired an attorney I paid by the hour ($285/hr), and my attorney friends get paid by the hour. Another friend is a neurosurgeon and bills by the hour when he performs surgery. I don't suppose you'd call them blue collar workers, would you?

Do they get dolalr for dollar? Or do the hospitals and firms get their cut?

Both the medical and legal professions restrict the entrants to their professions by using their trade organizations-- the AMA and the ABA-- to certify university programs. It is not the Gov't placing limits on who can become a doctor or lawyer (socialism?), it is the doctors and lawyers themselves (capitalism?). Tell me why we can't do something similar? In order to work for an ALPA carrier, one must have graduated from an ALPA certified school and passed an ALPA administered exam. If you don't pass the exam, you can't be placed on the seniority list of the airline. That, together with a massive public media campaign touting the training and professionalism of an ALPA-certified pilot places pressure on airlines to use only certified pilots. (By the way, I used ALPA as an example... but it could be any newly-formed organization responsible for certifying schools and providing the entrance exam.)

If it is a great idea... then I think it would be done. How does an organization control and certify entrants?

This technique is used in many other situations. When I look for a doctor, I first check out the AMA website to see if they are a member and where they went to school. When I was a CFI I made sure to become a Gold Seal in order to stand out from the rest. If I had continued instructing instead of joining the airlines, I would have pursued the Master CFI certification. When I look for a vet for my dog, I look for AAHA certification.

So how would that work for airline pilots? Once a pilot gets hired what incentive does he have to get a gold seal or Master class?

I would assume that, in time, this could be a liability issue for airlines. If an acident investigation revealed that the airline did not use certified pilots, their liability may be increased... and their insurance premiums may be increased.

Obviously continuing to do what we've been doing isn't working. It's time for a new strategy.

If it would be a liability, then I would bet the airlines would lobby against it. That would be the first battle ground...

 

[Motown]

Then we'll have to change the federal code.

Why? I don't recall anything in the Federal code specifying that we must be viewed as blue collar employees. In fact, a quick keyword search failed to hit on that word at all.

Do they get dolalr for dollar? Or do the hospitals and firms get their cut?

In the case of my neurosurgeon friend, he gets paid an hourly rate. What the facility charges the patient he doesn't know (or care). The patient doesn't pay his wage directly, just like our passengers don't pay our wage directly. Both clients (patients and passengers) pay the company (medical facility and airlines) for a service, and the service provider (surgeon and pilot) get paid an hourly wage for providing the service. (By the way, I need to tip my hat to my friend-- at 28 he just finished an 8-year neurosurgery residency, one of the youngest people to do so, and his sister is finishing her general residency at 25. He left last month for Israel where he will be working in an Army hospital for a 1-year fellowship seeing cases he'd never see regularly in the US. I've never seen someone work so hard and make it look so effortless.)

Likewise, in the case of my attorney friends, they bill clients $200 and $285 per hour, respectively, and they get paid $100 and $125 per hour respectively. (The 3rd friend wasn't home when I called a few minutes ago, so I don't know what he gets paid.)

If it is a great idea... then I think it would be done.

If you applied that logic to every new idea-- that it would have already been done if it were a great idea-- then we'd never have anything new, would we? "CSIRO 1996: If making Internet connections wireless is a great idea... then I think it would have been done" or "ALPA 1931: If establishing a collective bargaining agent for pilots is a great idea... then I think it would have been done."

How does an organization control and certify entrants?

Excellent question, and one I think ALPA or a newly formed group of concerned pilots should study. I am sure that a quick investigation of the history of the American Bar Association and the American Medical Association would teach us a lot.

So how would that work for airline pilots? Once a pilot gets hired what incentive does he have to get a gold seal or Master class?

I am sure that there are many ways to approach this. If we use my original example that a requirement of membership in ALPA is the passing of a Bar-type entrance exam, then any pilot hired at a current ALPA would have to have passed the exam in order to obtain ALPA membership. Public shame works well, too: "At ALPA, we only admit the best qualified pilots, pilots who have graduated an ALPA-certified school and are able to pass the ALPA-exam on the first or second attempt. Many call themselves pilots, but only a select few have earned the title ALPA Pilot. So the next time you book a ticket, be sure to ask the airline, 'Do you employ ALPA Pilots?' Your family deserves the best."

Trust me, peer pressure works well in a situation like this. When United Airlines employed the first nurse as a flight attendant in 1930, other airlines fell all over themselves to make sure that their flights had nurses on board, too. Nobody wanted to be viewed as 'less safe' than United Airlines. It was only because of WWII's need for nurses in the military that the requirement was relaxed at the airlines.

If it would be a liability, then I would bet the airlines would lobby against it. That would be the first battle ground...

I know it happens, but one would hope that an airline would never survive the PR disaster of campaigning AGAINST a perceived safety improvement. Let's take this ATP requirement as an example... the ATA is pushing to drop it, but their push is a quiet behind-the-scenes push. Nobody is running nationwide television ads touting the benefits of an all-ATP crew (the license, not the school). I think that ALPA should, and I'd gladly mail in a voluntary contribution for that cause. I suspect that if one airline starts advertising that every one of their flights has two ATP certified pilots on board, other airlines will be falling all over themselves to follow suit.

 

[waveflyer]

Rez- what are you talking about? How we negotiate our terms and whether it's collective or not- is IRRELEVANT to this issue. I know you have an agenda to get more participation and to get pilots to vote and support politicians who support our profession- so do I- (it's not a coincidence that this is being handled now w/ the current group of politicians) BUT YOU'RE LOSING SIGHT OF THE BALL ON THIS ONE. HUMAN NATURE EXISTS REGARDLESS OF WHETHER WE BARGAIN INDIVIDUALLY OR COLLECTIVELY. And so does SUPPLY and DEMAND.

If it gets harder to become a pilot AND stay a pilot- that will do two things- restrict the supply of pilots- you're right that that doesn't lead directly to increased wages- but it does give our unions leverage. What it secondly does is make us each individually less willing to accept low wages. THAT'S THE IMPORTANT THING. If you've spent any time listening to an FO at a regional tell you that what we do isn't important- and that it's not worth money- you'd see this problem. They haven't studied as hard as many of us. The process didn't require as much- They aren't as safe- but also think less of their worth. How many times have we been frustrated at sub-par contracts passing?

But do NOT get this twisted. This isn't only about money- It's about the FACT that i've flown with a lot of great professionals- but also a LOT of very poor pilots who are DANGEROUS. LITERALLY. These people are not weeded out- and management wants them employed. The weak links send a message that we are not valuable. That if we demand more money or a better work rules- there will always be somebody who's just glad to be employed who will do it. And since they aren't invested- that's a good argument to make.

If the wages are higher- it will attract more talented people who will do the job better. That's an argument everyday people can get around.

 

[rumrnr78]

There is no "Regional" nor "Mainline" ATP!! You idiots have let the public/politicians call the shots! What changes happened to mainline after Cali, Delta in DFW (2 times), Little Rock by AA, AA AirBus out of NY after 2001, SWA off the runaways in Burbank, Chicago and Amarillo (for example) took place? Nothing, cause they are considered professionals. I don't know if the regionals can save face cause they have let the majors (some pilots, only!!!!) and the public frame the debate.

 

[waveflyer]

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