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Look before you leap, NJASAP!

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Anyone who reads ibt1108.com or njasap.com knows there are certain people (read not all) who have absolutely no substance to their posts. "Whatever the pres wants to do, lets do it, and give no thought. Rah rah rah. Woo Hoo!" I filter that nonsense and hope others do the same. Again I say there is good poop here. I welcome good, intelligent debate.
Tell me about it. I want to strangle some of these guys for wallpapering the boards with essentially the same cheerleading crap over and over again. I'm in favor of the split, but some of those guys need to give it a rest.
 
what it really comes down to is YOU ARE A PILOT.

you are not a truck driver you are not a bus driver.

have you ever pulled over at 40,000 ft. to check the engine?

wake up

You are a pilot. You deserve a good living.

we as pilots all deserve everything we have worked for.

do some of you look at your family and wonder why there are still some pilot's out there that are still willing to stab you in the back

we all need to come together. 1 UNION. lets do it.
 
For those that really want to debate, what is one good valid reason for keeping the teamsters?
 
what it really comes down to is YOU ARE A PILOT.

you are not a truck driver you are not a bus driver.

have you ever pulled over at 40,000 ft. to check the engine?

wake up

You are a pilot. You deserve a good living.

we as pilots all deserve everything we have worked for.

do some of you look at your family and wonder why there are still some pilot's out there that are still willing to stab you in the back

we all need to come together. 1 UNION. lets do it.

A frickin men. That is awesome. Same thing I have been preaching at my current (soon to be my previous) el crappo workplace. Management looks at pilots (most of us with 4 year degrees) flying a Citation Bravo in the air ambulance roll the same way they look at high school dropouts with GEDs driving ground ambulances. It's the main reason I came to NetJets.
 
For those that really want to debate, what is one good valid reason for keeping the teamsters?

My son's grade. The 6th grade debate class was asked to describe things you'd find in a football stadium. The longer the answer the more points awarded. Morgan's creative response impressed the teacher so much that he got max points in spite of his 2 word answer--Jimmy Hoffa. Surprised that Morgan knew about Hoffa, much less where he was supposedly buried, I asked where he got his info--history channel. Oh... So I guess we don't need the Teamsters for debate answers...;)

Seriously, CD I can't think of one thing the IBT has (and having doesn't guarantee receiving, remember) that the NJA pilots can't get, or do, on their own. Morgan's amusing story aside, it isn't any fun for pilots to belong to a National organization that's the butt of jokes. Many are tired of the stigma and unprofessional image attached to the Teamsters. Getting nothing for their dues only adds insult to injury.

The above situation applies to the NJA pilots--not to the Options pilotgroup which is much smaller and currently at the bargaining table. The Ops situation is where the IBT is a good insurance policy. NJASAP leaders agree that belonging to the Teamsters was a good idea in the past, but the NJA group is ready to stand alone. They have outgrown the IBT. NJA pilots no longer need Teamsters providing security at picketing events. They need aviation experts lobbying for frac interests. The IBT was asked to provide that help but it's not a priority to them. With so many airline ramp workers, when it comes to issues like user fees, they aren't even on the same side as the frac pilots. NJ pilots are in the best position to step out ahead and represent the industry. I hope the other frac pilots will wish them well. NJW

When you're stuck in a rut pull yourself up by the boot straps and move on.
 
. They need aviation experts lobbying for frac interests. The IBT was asked to provide that help but it's not a priority to them. With so many airline ramp workers, when it comes to issues like user fees, they aren't even on the same side as the frac pilots.
When you're stuck in a rut pull yourself up by the boot straps and move on.

Kind of pointless to align and AID the people working against you isn't it? (GA user fees).;)
 
Yes Fisch, certainly pointless when you have a better alternative. The NJ pilots are ready to solo. On the other hand, being in the IBT is the best option for the FltOps pilots right now. From my PM exchange with one of their leaders I gather that their pilotgroup understands the reality of the situation.

Those who have been reading the board for the last few years may recall the pitch I made to all the frac pilots to show support for the NJA pilots during their contract negotiations. I stated that the bar needed to be raised and it made perfect sense for the largest and only unionized (at that time) group to lead the way. I predicted that a good contract at NJA would help pull up wages across the industry. We're seeing that happen. I'm now suggesting that the NJA pilot group is in the best position to take on the task of promoting the interests of the frac industry. I'm again asking the other frac pilots to lend their moral support to the NJ pilots with supportive posts and encouraging words when you cross paths in the FBOs. NJW
 
do some of you look at your family and wonder why there are still some pilot's out there that are still willing to stab you in the back

we all need to come together. 1 UNION. lets do it.

Interesting question when talking about the IBT. Don't forget that they were the ones who rushed to organize the GoJet pilots when that company was formed in direct violation of the Trans States pilots CBA.

One Union selling another Union under the bus.

F-ck the IBT.
 
...been a long day.

Whether it was thrown under the bus or sold down the river, the Teamsters did not do any pilots a favor by organizing what was clearly a union busting operation. Good luck to the NJ pilots and F-the IBT!
 
I think the age 60 ruling was a perfect example of why independents are NOT potent in the area of public policy/law. As I watched the age 60 rule unfold, SWAPA was totally powerless until ALPA got involved.

Funny how two people can see the same event and come away with such different views!

I guess that's what keeps Flightinfo.com a lively place.

DEAD WRONG!!!! Alpa put out a vote and it returned with a small majority in favor of keeping age 60 (I voted to keep it). Once ALPAs board realized they were powerless to keep age 60 they switched their position to help write the rules. It was going thru with or without ALPO.

ALPAs greed is running away. One example, the board voted to change the way they were payed after 911 so they would not fall victim to the paycuts and the list goes on and on. ALPA is done.
 
...been a long day.

Whether it was thrown under the bus or sold down the river, the Teamsters did not do any pilots a favor by organizing what was clearly a union busting operation. Good luck to the NJ pilots and F-the IBT!

'Jackson, UG was just teasing; we definitely got your message. Thanks for taking the time to post even after a long day and thanks for your support. :) I can't imagine that the NJ pilots would elect to remain with the IBT, especially after Hoffa's letter to the pilotgroup. To give you just one example among many aggravating ones...Hoffa gave credit for the 2007 IBB contract to the Teamsters when the national wasn't even aware that negotiations were taking place. (bet 1108 would have heard from them if the dues were late) Then after learning of the NJ pilots' success they failed to give them even one word of credit/congratulations in their monthly magazine... :mad:

I was interested to read that "the strong 2005 CBA was the first contract for the NJ pilots" (paraphrased). Hardly! While it may be quite accurate to say it was the first strong contract they had acquired (due entirely to the pilots' efforts only), the NJ pilots had been working under a contract for years...:rolleyes:

Regarding the question of whether to leave the IBT, or not, let me put it this way: How many of you guys would keep dating a woman who couldn't pick you out in a crowd, and had such little interest in the relationship that she didn't bother to remember basic facts about you?

Those who refuse to give credit where it is due should be given the boot
 
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Regarding the question of whether to leave the IBT, or not, let me put it this way: How many of you guys would keep dating a woman who couldn't pick you out in a crowd, and had such little interest in the relationship that she didn't bother to remember basic facts about you?

Is she hot (or at least easy?) :D
 
Card is in!

In the 80's IBT had a flight department and that's the closest the've come to knowing anything about aviation.

I will Drink Griz and Bill O's Koolaid all day. Teamsters need to go asap!
 
NJAPLT, I should have put a disclaimer in my post. Better late than never....Those of you with low standards and high testosterone levels are exempt from participating in the survey...:p

The rest of you need to put your boots on. ;) NJASAP (SU2) needs you to sign and mail those cards in while spreading the word. Those of you who helped vacate 284 please reassure the new guys that the future is brighter on the other side.
Thanks,
NJW
 
With all the shenanigans the Teamsters have been up to this week, we probably will have the card drive completed in the next 7-10 days. Seeing as we only launched this thing on March 17th, we're pleased with the support we're getting from the pilots.
 
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Agreed, if the present rate continues. I'm personally hoping the NJ pilots will hit the 85% mark, though. Yes, guys, I'm being optimistic again, but to me it's an easy decision. Are you going home with the foul-mouthed broad who can't remember your name or are you gonna dance with the good-looker who brought you to the present (IBB) celebration party?

In light of the recent shenanigans, it's time to keep up your heels and make a fuss. Flood the mailbox...:cool:
 
The NJ pilots are ready to solo. On the other hand, being in the IBT is the best option for the FltOps pilots right now.

You never stop with the insults and doublespeak.

You basically say that the Flight Options pilots need national help and the NJ pilots don't.

You advocate that NJ pilots bail out on IBT and leave the Flight Options pilots in the middle of critical negotiations.

You advocate solidarity in the industry, yet support splitting NJ pilots into an in-house union where it is well known that NJ is for the most part the loudest voice in the industry.

You support 1108 and the IBT, then once the contract is done you support splitting the relationship because IBT is too expensive and 1108 gets nothing out of it.



You can add this to the ever famous insulting doublespeak previously documented as:
  • The insults to all non-pilot employees about them not investing properly in thier careers by not being pilots.
  • Your husband gets paid for "volunteering" for the union and not flying revenue for NJ.
It goes on and on. Insult after insult of people that are innocent bystanders. People like you just don't get it.


I have core basic values when it come to by union dislikes. One of the biggest is the ongoing and never ending turmoil caused by the existence of unions. Once again NJW, you make my case for me.
 
RRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

Get back in your hole, B.
 
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Sorry 'bout that stench, Cap'n. It happens every time the word-twister slithers across the deck...:erm: Ya see, it leaves a trail of slimy fud.

Arrr mateys...best ta pull on yer boots boys...it's gettin' deep around here. Until the Options crew lands their contract the word-twisters and fudspinners are gonna lie in wait hoping to attack the weak and unwary. Arm yourselves with reality me hearties and give 'em the boot!
 
“$3000 per day! That's what we send to IBT, day in - day out. Every day that we delay, we just add to the coffers in DC.”
NJASAP Leadership
*******************
Wait just a minute, folks.

Before we join the ranks of dis-organized labor, let’s slow down and consider something other than our own parochial interests. While it’s easy to say that we are sending $3000 a day out of our direct control, it may be a little rash to say that we receive no benefit. The IBT has many locals and many concerns. It is fighting for the wages and working conditions of more than just 1108. While we may not see our $3000 per day working within our own walls, it would not be true to say that we’ve received no benefit.

A juggernaut is rolling down the streets paved by organized labor. This juggernaut’s siren-call is “keep your money in-house and fight your own battles!”

This call is reverberating throughout the airline industry, and I suppose elsewhere as well.
Before we further fragment labor we need to carefully analyze if our long term goals are really best served by disassociating ourselves from organized labor. Are we succumbing to the allure of short term goals by sacrificing long term strength and labor solidarity?

When the ALPA represented the majority of airline pilots, the APA and then the SWAPA gleefully pulled the plug and saved themselves a bundle by “going it alone”. For awhile this worked, but as more and more airlines are dropping ALPA, its strength has been sapped and we are seeing labor falling further and further behind in political strength and having fewer and fewer friendly courts.

Is it a mystery why the 121 guys are making less than 50% of what they were making a few years ago? It took the ALPA years to build the political base it enjoyed, but it took only eight years for it to become impotent.

Ladies and gentlemen, we do not operate in a labor-management world of our own, long-term. Yes, today, we are enjoying the fruits of a management that cares about the company, the customers and the employees. We really don’t need anything but a loose association to represent us. However, when RTS is dead, gone and forgotten and the “money boys” come, just as they did to USAir, Emory, United, Delta…who will we turn to when we need some horsepower? Ourselves? Try those “strong union” tactics against a vicious management backed by courts staffed and paid for by big business! Watch the injunctions come down and the individual pilots fired. Watch the bankruptcy court take everything you’ve worked a career for! Ask me how I know.

Think our little union is tough? Ha!

When the NetJets’ pilot scope clause is violated and foreign pilots are flying “our” planes because cabotage is pushed through, will the IBT be there when we need some “big guns”?

Is the IBT ideal? NO! Is the ALPA a panacea? NO! Do they need to change? Yes? Are we going to change them by going it on our own? NO!

Before we throw out what has taken years to build, let us look before we leap! If Bill Olsen wants to start a new national union of pilots that will include every pilot who earns his living by flying, this may be a great first step. ALPA’s formula is badly broken; the IBT maybe worse. But if Bill Olsen is merely trying to save $3000 per day by abandoning organized labor, he had better think before he leads his trusting sheep over the precipice.

Don't send in your card then.....your vote will then be heard
 
Sorry 'bout that stench, Cap'n. It happens every time the word-twister slithers across the deck...:erm: Ya see, it leaves a trail of slimy fud.

Arrr mateys...best ta pull on yer boots boys...it's gettin' deep around here. Until the Options crew lands their contract the word-twisters and fudspinners are gonna lie in wait hoping to attack the weak and unwary. Arm yourselves with reality me hearties and give 'em the boot!


Like I said before, your pirate image is perfect.

Unions have historically burned, pillaged and ruined more aviation careers with their heartless pirate-like tactics and the pirate image you project and welcome is a perfect example of why your pro-union propaganda is so painful to all.

1108 used the IBT to gain the contract and like a pirate will attempt to discard it and pillage the funds of those that previously protected it.

In the process the FLOPS pilots will get hung out to dry because they will not have the full support. Gotta love the pirate like burn and pillage agenda of unions and NJW's disgusting propaganda.

There is only one wordtwister on these boards NJW and that is YOU. Volunteers don't get paid and all aviation professionals have invested in their careers, no matter how much disrespect you show them.

NJ and 1108 USED the IBT to get what they wanted and are discarding the IBT and hanging the FLOPS pilots out to dry. You are a fair weather friend, just like a true pirate.

I come from a sea-faring town, and boots like that on any sailor I know would have forced them to walk the plank.
 
BF, the cards just show call for a vote. Therefore, every single eligible pilot should send in a card. Not doing so is equal to denying your fellow pilots their right to vote. I know that's not your intention.

These are critical times for the pilots of both NJ and FltOps. Your leaders have done a good job explaining the latest events and what's a stake. I admire all of you for the stand you're taking and I'm proud of the unity you're showing. Outsiders may not understand that we're all on the same side, but I know y'all do. Your determination will pay off in the end and the frac industry will be stronger and more secure because of the effort you are each making. Many thanks! NJW

Those who reject democratic rule should be given the boot. Fudspinners and word-twisters to the front of the line.
 
Cry me a river.

1108 used the IBT to gain the contract and like a pirate will attempt to discard it and pillage the funds of those that previously protected it.

For this to be true, the IBT would have had to actually do something, anything, to help the NJA pilots. They did, and now do, absolutely nothing.
 
Fozzy, good point! They tried to take credit for the 2007 CBA. What a sham!..:mad: They didn't even know negotiations were taking place. That's how much the IBT pays attention to the NJA pilots. ..:rolleyes: Any of you NJ pilots that haven't read the NJASAP rebuttal to Hoffa's letter are missing an important update. Don't overlook the fact that he tried to get you to give up your right to vote--in all caps no less. A bit panic stricken, don't you think? After all if the Teamsters had done a good job of representing the NJA pilots they wouldn't have to worry about a vote. As it is, the pilots know exactly who's responsible for their success. There are some excellent posts on the NJASAP board that explains it all.

Read the truth. Send in your card. Vote for the professional representation that brought you the 2007 CBA--NJASAP!
 
Those who reject democratic rule should be given the boot. Fudspinners and word-twisters to the front of the line.


Well, you better head to the beginning of the line then because nowhere, and I mean nowhere does the meaning of the word democracy include the words "strike" or "work action".

When a union strikes, it is taking what they want by force. That isn't democracy, that is a dictatorship.

Democracy is that of the common people, which you have clearly stated many times that non-pilot employees haven't invested in their careers. As non-pilots (common people) they don't have the right to vote with the pilots, do they? If they did you KNOW what the result would be.

You are the only wordtwister on this board, and I enjoy clarifying your disgusting pro-union propaganda.


de·moc·ra·cy
–noun, plural -cies. 1.government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system. 2.a state having such a form of government: The United States and Canada are democracies. 3.a state of society characterized by formal equality of rights and privileges. 4.political or social equality; democratic spirit. 5.the common people of a community as distinguished from any privileged class; the common people with respect to their political power.
 
B19,

First of all, what you just did was spin her words. You are contradicting yourself.

Secondly, your definition is incorrect. The USA is not a democracy, it is a republic. Educate yourself on the difference. PM with questions.
 
Unions have historically burned, pillaged and ruined more aviation careers with their heartless pirate-like tactics


Yeah, it was definitely the union that burned Aloha to the ground huh? Not a scumbag management type with the initals J O, right? Not predatory pricing, illegal access to proprietary information, crewmember intimidation (jumpseat to Hawaii or lose your job), or the myriad other questionable tactics J O uses?

As anyone on this board knows, I'm not exactly a cheerleader for unions. But more aviation careers have been destroyed by unethical management tactics and executive greed than any union.
 
Well, you better head to the beginning of the line then because nowhere, and I mean nowhere does the meaning of the word democracy include the words "strike" or "work action".

Doubt it has this little nugget either.


lock·out
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thinsp.png
/ˈlɒkˌaʊt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[lok-out] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun
the temporary closing of a business or the refusal by an employer to allow employees to come to work until they accept the employer's terms.
[Origin: 1850–55; n. use of v. phrase lock out
thinsp.png
]


Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
 

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