LEX Comair Crew on a nap/cdo/

[acaTerry]

How about regulating yourself?

One airline I used to work for had a 3-call policy...3 calls of fatigue or sick in a year and you were fired. Yes, it was challenged by someone and it stood up in court.

But...

Ours is a chosen profession, and early mornings and flying have been going together since Dawn Patrol.

And so have fatigue related accidents...see the trend?

.....

 

[acaTerry]

It's time for the air carriers and the unions representing pilots (yes, you ALPA) to step up and be proactive on the issue of fatigue.

Sorry, Duane Woerth(less) was too busy campaigning for Kerry and writing stern letters about lasers.

 

[G4G5]

The really HORRIBLE thing is that the technology exists TODAY to have stoped this.

Do a google search on Honeywell Runway Awareness and Advisory System (RAAS).

I have it on my aircraft. It announces the runway, "Approaching Runway XX on takeoff and landing. This would have told the crew that they were on the wrong runway.

When we get to a predetermined number(set by operator) it starts to announce feet remaining on your current runway. This would have warned them that they did not have enough runway remaining.

We are a single aircraft operator and the cost to add it to our G5 was $24,000. For less then $500 a person Comair mgt could have kept everyone on that aircraft alive.

Imagine the discount a large carrier would get. It's truly unfortunate that it takes somethig like this to make mgt wake up

This is the type of safety equipment that I can see the FAA mandating after the NTSB report.

It truly is a shame, my thoughts and prayers go out to the familes of those who lost loved ones.

How hard will it be for Comair to defend the choice NOT to purchase RAAS? I hope the person who made the decision not to purchase RAAS, can sleep with himself

 

[172driver]

How hard will it be for Comair to defend the choice NOT to purchase RAAS? I hope the person who made the decision not to purchase RAAS, can sleep with himself

That person would first have to defend the choice not to purchase GPS on half of the airplanes, which I assume is required for RAAS. That person would not be an employee of Comair either, as mother Delta controls all such expenditures. Since they can't even seem to afford tugs to push back airplanes, I doubt if we'll see RAAS any time soon, unless mandated by the FAA.

 

[ReportCanoa]

Just like the computer meltdown. Delta's fault for not spending the money on upgrades, but Comair's fault anyway. This is a Delta problem, and nothing else.

 

[777_Jackpot]

The really HORRIBLE thing is that the technology exists TODAY to have stoped this.

Yeah its called a heading bug.

 

[ReportCanoa]

ignore list has been updated.

 

[MACHTRANSDUCER]

Gps

some other comair person correct me however, i believe ALL comair jets are now upgraded with GPS. This was only done in 2004 or 2005, mostly done because of FAA mandate for gpws and egpws.
R.I.P. Thoughts and prayers.

 

[172driver]

some other comair person correct me however, i believe ALL comair jets are now upgraded with GPS. This was only done in 2004 or 2005, mostly done because of FAA mandate for gpws and egpws.
R.I.P. Thoughts and prayers.

Nope.

 

[millhouse21]

The egpws probably has a GPS in it that you don't know about or have access to. The J41 was like that. No GPS available for navigation but it does live inside the EGPWS.

 

[JetPilot_Mike]

Not all Comair aircraft have GPS. I believe EGPWS uses a terrain overlay which is provided aircraft position from the FMS. Which is why when the FMS goes into DR, you get a TERRAIN NOT AVAILABLE status message.

 

[Soverytired]

Yeah its called a heading bug.

Ah, another perfect pilot enters our midst.

By your "logic"

Pilots don't need EGPWS . . . we have altimeters and navs for positional awareness.

Pilots don't need gear warning horns . . . we have checklist.

Pilots don't need TCAS . . . . for that is the job of equally infallible ATC.

Pilots don't need runway incursion warning systems or hold short lighting at busy airports. . . .for we have paint on the pavement.

Pilots don't need Windshear warning systems . . . for we have weather reports and airspeed indicators.

Pilots don't need stall warning systems and shakers . . . for pilots would never fly below Vs 1.3.

Pilots don't need overspeed indicators . . . for we would never exceed a flap speed for VMO thanks to our airspeed indicators.

=====================================================

Unfortunately though, all pilots aren't 100% "perfect" as you. So thank you very, much, but I'll take all the help I can get when it comes to catching stupid mistakes.

(but you can of course ignore all those warning systems when you're flying . . .. after all, YOU would never make a mistake, and if they ever activated you no doubt have a broken warning system)

 

[atrdriver]

Ah, another perfect pilot enters our midst.

By your "logic"

Pilots don't need EGPWS . . . we have altimeters and navs for positional awareness.

Pilots don't need gear warning horns . . . we have checklist.

Pilots don't need TCAS . . . . for that is the job of equally infallible ATC.

Pilots don't need runway incursion warning systems or hold short lighting at busy airports. . . .for we have paint on the pavement.

Pilots don't need Windshear warning systems . . . for we have weather reports and airspeed indicators.

Pilots don't need stall warning systems and shakers . . . for pilots would never fly below Vs 1.3.

Pilots don't need overspeed indicators . . . for we would never exceed a flap speed for VMO thanks to our airspeed indicators.

=====================================================

Unfortunately though, all pilots aren't 100% "perfect" as you. So thank you very, much, but I'll take all the help I can get when it comes to catching stupid mistakes.

(but you can of course ignore all those warning systems when you're flying . . .. after all, YOU would never make a mistake, and if they ever activated you no doubt have a broken warning system)

I agree that all the warning systems are great, but how many accidents can you remember where the GPWS has sounded and both pilots ignored it until it was too late? I can think of 2 off the top of my head. Mindset is a big part of this. If, for whatever reason, you think that a condition exists, it takes a pretty big jolt to break that conviction. Sometimes that jolt is just your FO saying what are you doing. But if BOTH pilots are under the same impression, for whatever reason, even a warning system may not help break the chain.

 

[PCL_128]

ignore list has been updated.

I've got more than a couple of names to add to mine too. This incident has really shown who the pathetic **************************************** around here are. Some of you people make me sick.

 

[Soverytired]

I agree that all the warning systems are great, but how many accidents can you remember where the GPWS has sounded and both pilots ignored it until it was too late? I can think of 2 off the top of my head. Mindset is a big part of this. If, for whatever reason, you think that a condition exists, it takes a pretty big jolt to break that conviction. Sometimes that jolt is just your FO saying what are you doing. But if BOTH pilots are under the same impression, for whatever reason, even a warning system may not help break the chain.

Agreed.

I was responding more to the attitude that all pilots must do is be perfect and all will be just fine. Clearly, pilots are human, they screw up daily, and these warning systems have undoubtly saved thousands of lives.

In this instance, a "heading bug" cannot be considered an active warning system. An FMS/nav based runway alignment warning system as discussed over multiple forumns recently IS.

I'm not aware of it's feasibility in the real world, but I DO think there are very, very few pilots who would continue a takeoff with a "ding ding ding, WRONG RUNWAY DOOFUS" aural warning when takeoff power is applied. At least without being very, very certain they were on the right runway, which is after all the whole point.