LEX Comair Crew on a nap/cdo/

[Icelandair]

I think fatigue is a much bigger issue here than realized. If they got in late Friday, I know i can't just get into the hotel and fall over asleep. I need some time to wind down, so they probably got to bed well after midnight. The next day, Saturday, They probably woke up around 9 or 10. I don't know about you, but I can't 8 hours of sleep the next night. Maybe 5 if I am lucky. Because i've learned that if i try to force myself to bed at 7 pm, I end up just starting at the smoke detector light on the ceiling and tossing and turning until about 11 or 12, my normal bedtime. These guys probably had to get up in the 4's for a 5 or 5:15 show time. Dumbass things happen when you are groggy. Maybe scheduling flights in the wee hours of the morning isn't a great idea? Of course the companies wouldn't fix that, only the feds could regulate it and I have little faith in that happening.

 

[172driver]

Per the bid packet, they arrived Fri night, for almost a 28 hour layover.

They weren't necessarily flying a trip from the bid packet. The CA was on reserve. The FO and FA were displaced lineholders, translation: reserves, on a totally different trip than the original. Maybe the dispatcher/scheduler above has specific info about their trip, maybe not, but should not be discussing it here.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

What the hell.....................



At least half a dozen neighbors said they did not know much about the 6-foot-two pilot who worked for Delta Airlines. Records show he received an airline transport pilot certificate in November 2005.
David Norris, who lives next door, said Polehinke had three or four small dogs. Norris also believes he was divorced from his wife, Ida. Florida records do not show the couple had divorced.
Ida Askew, 51, was arrested and charged with attempted murder in July 1999 after she shot Polehinke in the stomach with a handgun while the couple was arguing, police records show.
Askew did not return calls Sunday.
Most of the time, neighbors saw Polehinke drive off in his red Mazda Miata. Once in a while, they would see him working in his yard, they said. They rejoiced that he survived the crash, which authorities said claimed the lives of 49 people.
"I'm happy to hear he's alive," said Kareem Bandele, who lives across the street from Polehinke's home.

 

[FlyinScotsman]

Is Bunny....... Mary Schiavo in disguise?

Yeah, I'd say so.

Are you deliberately understating your qualifications in an attempt to get rises out of people who think you some punk CFI spouting flamebait, or are you actively working in a 121 environment? Your perspective and its credibility are, for better or worse, tied to what you have done and what you are currently doing.

While many of your points are valid, your delivery is crass (and that is giving you a free pass on a few snide comments).

I think so!!!!

Also hold off all judgement until ALL of the facts are in.

My deepest sympathy to all the families involved in this tragic event.

 

[CatYaaak]

I think fatigue is a much bigger issue here than realized. If they got in late Friday, I know i can't just get into the hotel and fall over asleep. I need some time to wind down, so they probably got to bed well after midnight. The next day, Saturday, They probably woke up around 9 or 10. I don't know about you, but I can't 8 hours of sleep the next night. Maybe 5 if I am lucky. Because i've learned that if i try to force myself to bed at 7 pm, I end up just starting at the smoke detector light on the ceiling and tossing and turning until about 11 or 12, my normal bedtime. These guys probably had to get up in the 4's for a 5 or 5:15 show time. Dumbass things happen when you are groggy. Maybe scheduling flights in the wee hours of the morning isn't a great idea? Of course the companies wouldn't fix that, only the feds could regulate it and I have little faith in that happening.

How about regulating yourself?

(Please note: This is STRICTLY a response to Icelandair's scenario-question about resting...I'm treating it as a hypothetical as he's laid it out. It is NOT a comment about this accident crew or their rest. Nobody knows yet who was scheduled where, doing what, or what changes were made).

If you got in late that 1st night, and know if you sleep until "9 or 10" you won't be able to get good rest the 2nd night because your schedule is telling you you have a 4-something wake up, why would you sleep-in so late that first morning?

Why wouldn't you set an alarm that first morning and get up early so you'll be ready to sleep by evening and get a good night's rest before you fly? Especially if you can't personally function on 5 hours of sleep and need 8.

What is "normal bedtime"? Even on reserve it's part of the job to adjust your sleep to scheduled rest no matter what they do with you. Nobody's out there doing "rolling-reserve" are they?

Hey, there's not ever been a flight I've had to wake up at 0330 or thereabouts for and thought it was a "good idea". There's only a couple things I want to be doing at that hour. One of those things is not being awake, and the other thing doesn't involve airplanes, or even leaving the room.

But...

Ours is a chosen profession, and early mornings and flying have been going together since Dawn Patrol. That will never change, they'll never regulate it away, and there's no reason they should assuming rest is provided for.

Besides, if they began to regulate things away merely because they sucked, they should begin with WSCoDs.

 

[Metro752]

FlyinScotsman!

Mary Schiavo is that NTSB DOT cvnt I am talking about. What an ignoramous fat pig running her hog jowels.

 

[NJApilot]

Time will tell whether or not fatigue is found to be factor in this accident. With that said, IF crew fatigue is determined to have played a role, I sincerely hope that all 121 air carriers - and the respective unions at these carriers - will adopt a more proactive approach to crew fatigue.

My current employer (granted, not 121) adheres to a strict policy related to crew fatigue. Simply put, if at any time, ANY crewmember feels that the safety of flight could be compromised due to fatigue, the crew has a contractual obligation to report the condition to Operations. Upon notification of crew fatigue, scheduling must immediately place the crew into rest for a minimum of 14 hours - no repercussions whatsoever, no questions asked (other than the ocassional question from ops asking why the crew is fatigued - but it is never second-guessed). This policy is written into our CBA. There have been ocassions where crews have reported fatigue immediately following a crew rest period, after a noisy overnight at the hotel with interrupted rest - and the company has always complied. Is there some abuse of this policy by crewmembers? From time to time, I would guess that there is....and that is unfortunate. But probably 99% of the time the calls are fully justified, and over time I think most of our crewmembers have adapted to reporting fatigue when only necessary. I would guess that our schedulers sometimes cringe when finding out, an hour prior to a scheduled departure, that a crew is calling in fatigued, but trust me...they know that this policy is enforced from the top of the company down, and they have learned to just deal with and move on. The passengers are sometimes inconvenienced, yes....but it's much better than the alternative, and they are appreciative of that in the end.

The accident in LEX is a tragedy indeed, and my condolences go out to the families of all involved and those at COMAIR. But if fatigue is in fact found to be a contributing factor here, one can only hope that something good comes from such a terrible event. It's time for the air carriers and the unions representing pilots (yes, you ALPA) to step up and be proactive on the issue of fatigue. And if these entities aren't willing to step up, maybe it's time for the rank-and-file pilots to take matters into their own hands and simply make it happen. What I mean by that, I'll leave for you to figure out on your own.

Waiting for a change in FARs is just not good enough anymore - and it's probably not going to happen anytime soon. We're all professionals - it's time to start acting like it.

 

[172driver]

What is "normal bedtime"? Even on reserve it's part of the job to adjust your sleep to scheduled rest no matter what they do with you. Nobody's out there doing "rolling-reserve" are they?

Yes they are. At Comair it is standard practice to constantly change your reserve windows, especially right now, as they are even more short-staffed than normal. This month, I have done 0800-2200, 1000-2400, 1200-2400, and 1800-2400 (the CD shift). Then, of course, once you're assigned a trip, all bets are off. You routinely have report times varying by 12-16 hrs from trip to trip, with some CDO's thrown in there. And that's for a very senior reservist.

I recently had a 1200-2400 callout window where I was paged at 1400, released to rest, and my window was changed to a 2400-1400 for that night. So, theoretically, if I wasn't a good napper, which I'd have no reason to be while holding a day shift, I could've been awake for around 32 hours straight -- 0800 day 1 (my normal waking hour with that shift) until 1600 day 2. At best, I would have been awake for 32 hrs with an afternoon nap of an hour or two. Legal but not safe. They didn't call me out on day 2, but if they had, I was definitely going with the fatigue call. The final word on safety still rests with the crewmember.

I hate to come off as bad mouthing the company at a time like this, but I agree with NJA, something has to be done. Our reserve system is pretty brutal. I will also say that Comair operates well within legal boundaries when it comes to this issue, so you have to look at who makes the law.

I will not comment on the specifics of the accident crew's rest/duty/circadian cycle except to say that the CA was a reserve and the FO and FA were displaced lineholders. All had much more than required rest.

 

[Airbus300]

Pilot's wife says he was rested before doomed flight

Associated Press

LEXINGTON, Ky. - The captain of the Comair jet that crashed this week, killing 49 people, had arrived in Lexington the afternoon before his flight and was rested before leaving, his wife said Monday.
"My husband was not careless in any manner," Amy Clay told the Lexington Herald-Leader in a story on its Web site. Clay's husband, Jeffrey Clay, 35, was killed in the crash early Sunday along with another crew member and 47 passengers.
"He was detail-oriented," Amy Clay said. "He was a wonderful man and an incredible pilot. The pilots who worked with him called him a 'by-the-book guy.'"
Part of the investigation has been focused on why the plane took off from the wrong runway and whether the pilots were tired or compromised in some way.
The FAA's database shows that "neither pilot had any accidents, incidents or enforcement history," said Kathleen Bergen, an FAA spokeswoman.
James Polehinke, 44, the plane's first officer and only survivor, was in critical condition Monday at University of Kentucky Hospital.
Debbie Hersman, a member of the National Transportation Safety Board heading the probe, said Monday night that Polehinke was piloting the plane.
Amy Clay said her husband flew to Lexington as a passenger Saturday afternoon and that she had dinner with him that evening in Lexington before he returned to his hotel. She said she spoke to her husband a few times by telephone that night and thinks the last time must have been about 10 p.m., right before she went to bed.
The shuttle driver who took Clay and the rest of the Flight 5191 crew to the airport said he picked them up at 5 a.m. Sunday and noticed nothing unusual.
"It was all perfectly normal," Jarrod Moore, who works for the Radisson, told the newspaper. "It's usually a quiet ride that time in the morning - just small talk."
Clay said her husband routinely flew in and out of Blue Grass Airport.
Hersman said that the NTSB investigation would include routine toxicology tests for alcohol and drugs. The investigation would look at the crew's training and history, how they had spent the previous 72 hours and whether they got enough rest, Hersman said.
Information from: Lexington Herald-Leader, http://www.kentucky.com

 

[XPOO]

SkyWest flight to ORD took off from LEX that morning, in the same exact aircraft, 4 minutes prior to Comair5191 according to ACARS times at 0601L. It would be interesting to see if that crew could recall the actual airport conditions, runway lighting, etc. I think it would help shed some light on where the confusion may have came from.

 

[CatYaaak]

Yes they are. At Comair it is standard practice to constantly change your reserve windows, especially right now, as they are even more short-staffed than normal. This month, I have done 0800-2200, 1000-2400, 1200-2400, and 1800-2400 (the CD shift). Then, of course, once you're assigned a trip, all bets are off. You routinely have report times varying by 12-16 hrs from trip to trip, with some CDO's thrown in there. And that's for a very senior reservist.

I recently had a 1200-2400 callout window where I was paged at 1400, released to rest, and my window was changed to a 2400-1400 for that night. So, theoretically, if I wasn't a good napper, which I'd have no reason to be while holding a day shift, I could've been awake for around 32 hours straight -- 0800 day 1 (my normal waking hour with that shift) until 1600 day 2. At best, I would have been awake for 32 hrs with an afternoon nap of an hour or two. Legal but not safe. They didn't call me out on day 2, but if they had, I was definitely going with the fatigue call. The final word on safety still rests with the crewmember.

I hate to come off as bad mouthing the company at a time like this, but I agree with NJA, something has to be done. Our reserve system is pretty brutal. I will also say that Comair operates well within legal boundaries when it comes to this issue, so you have to look at who makes the law.

I will not comment on the specifics of the accident crew's rest/duty/circadian cycle except to say that the CA was a reserve and the FO and FA were displaced lineholders. All had much more than required rest.

I'm with you on not commenting on the accident crew.

Yep, that scheduled 12-24/released and reassigned 24-14 sucks and I absolutely disagree with rolling-reserve like that. Pilots can adjust to a reserve schedule (day or night, and it's reasonable for a company to expect them to), but not to what you've described.

As you say, it's incumbent upon the crewmembers not to show up fatigued. I'm happy to hear you'd made the decision to refuse beforehand if a trip were to have been assigned during second period.

But you shouldn't have to rely on the FAR's to defend yourself simply because you've been placed in that situation due to the company's lack of planning and scheduling policies (not to mention a huge hole in your contract) that assumes you can switch sleep on and off like a robot. I'd go so far as to just refuse the re-assignment you've described straight away, because they've robbed me of my ability to show up in the condition that trusting passengers expect.

For unscheduled ops it's impossible for a company to anticipate when the flights will occur or the threshold of fatigue is for each individual crewmember, even while FAR-mandated minimum rest periods are adhered to. It goes with the territory, so a smart co will make it clear to the pilot he/she must speak up if they're fatigued (hopefully beforehand) with no ramifications. NJAPilot sounds like he enjoys that situation and rightfully respects his company for adhering to that policy.

But for an operation running scheduled ops, there is no excuse..none..for not building/assigning a monthly reserve line (or at least blocks of days with time-off at either end to adjust), with the same, unchangeable reserve schedule. I'm fortunate in that the airlines I worked for in the past built them that way as it was in the contract.

Unfortunately, the quality of reserve lines and policies is often either forgotten or played-off as a bargaining chip in furtherance of other issues by one's own MEC reps during negotiations. The Company happily accepts this nugget of "flexibility". Usually, the reps are many seniority numbers past ever having worry about sitting reserve. Reserve pilots have a small voice in a larger group that's beating the drum more loudly for something else. Seniors screw the Juniors to make more of the group happy...sad, but frequently all too true. Safety suffers.

If schedulers there work to minimize this kind of thing for crewmemebers as far as their power allows within the existing company policy and contract, kudos to them.

The accident crew by all reports had legal rest. The investigation into what happened the days prior to that rest regarding rest and assigned duty will tell the story as to whether they had gotten jerked around and rolled or not, and determine if that was a factor. The NTSB covers that ground and doesn't just do the paperwork look-back. They also go back and work forward from each pilot's perspective.

But regardless as to whether it was a factor here (and if I've understood you correctly) shame on the Company for creating this potential on ANY of the flights they've assigned reserve crewmembers to, and shame on your MEC for still allowing that potential to exist. I sincerely hope your pilot group addresses this next time around.

 

[ThankyouCMR]

not possible

It could have been reduced rest, but not a continuous duty. All of Comairs CD lines depart from base city and return to the base directly the next day.
​

 

[Morning Wood]

There's nothing wrong with calling it 'Runway Two Two Zero', is it?

We just use short form and 'acronyms’ because of space and frequency use limitation. This person has all the time in the world to use the full name rather than having to omit a ‘zero’. Believe me, more people in this world are non-pilots and you still think that anything said in this world about aviation should follow strict aviation ‘standards’ and ‘rules’.

Get over it!

Bunny

I have never seen a runway on a chart that way. Check the AIM and see if that phraseology is standard. The heading on runway 22 at LEX is 226. Why not call it 226 instead of 220? Because it's not either, it's 22. That's why runways in airports all going the same direction like LAX with the same heading (069 degrees) aren't all called the same thing.

 

[JP4user]

Maybe on another planet where space cadet Bunny flies they use this terminology for runways?

 

[asmn]

A little information about the present layout in LEX. I flew in yesterday afternoon and out this morning. The layout today of 22, 26 and A is completely different from previous visits. Neither the JEPP or NOS depicts the current airport layout at all. Please look at USA Today article. Please note this information is only today's layout, I have no idea how many, if any, of these changes existed for the crew of 5191.

Taxiing up A to 26 it appears the taxiway centerline has moved because it now leads you south of the numbers painted on 26 directly across to A5 not over the numbers of 26 like before. Taxiway A is barricaded closed between 26 and 22 (not a NOTAMed closure, the closure of A wasn't stated on yesterdays ATIS but was on this mornings). Looking straight ahead of 22 the threshold has been relocated 400-600 feet southwest of old position and the new threshold is just south of A5 and doesn't align with any taxiway. The old northernmost departure end is painted unusable by aircraft.

Runway 22 has several items notamed OTS - centerline lights, REILS, touchdown zone lights and runway distance remaining signs. The notam about the changed threshold is not explicit is states: LEX 4/22 ASDA 7003 TORA 7003 TODA 7003 LDA 6603 WEF 0608202200. 6603 appears to be the new usable length of the runway but we have no updated diagram depicting this length, the closure of Alpha, the back taxi required of 22 for a full length takeoff and the new actual length of 22.

We quarried approach control about why A's closure wasn't on the ATIS yesterday and he stated the tecnically A no longer exists between 22 and 26, a new taxiway will eventually be built that aligns with the new threshold of 22 and that will be named A7.