LEX Comair Crew on a nap/cdo/

[acaTerry]

How about regulating yourself?

One airline I used to work for had a 3-call policy...3 calls of fatigue or sick in a year and you were fired. Yes, it was challenged by someone and it stood up in court.

But...

Ours is a chosen profession, and early mornings and flying have been going together since Dawn Patrol.

And so have fatigue related accidents...see the trend?

.....

 

[acaTerry]

It's time for the air carriers and the unions representing pilots (yes, you ALPA) to step up and be proactive on the issue of fatigue.

Sorry, Duane Woerth(less) was too busy campaigning for Kerry and writing stern letters about lasers.

 

[G4G5]

The really HORRIBLE thing is that the technology exists TODAY to have stoped this.

Do a google search on Honeywell Runway Awareness and Advisory System (RAAS).

I have it on my aircraft. It announces the runway, "Approaching Runway XX on takeoff and landing. This would have told the crew that they were on the wrong runway.

When we get to a predetermined number(set by operator) it starts to announce feet remaining on your current runway. This would have warned them that they did not have enough runway remaining.

We are a single aircraft operator and the cost to add it to our G5 was $24,000. For less then $500 a person Comair mgt could have kept everyone on that aircraft alive.

Imagine the discount a large carrier would get. It's truly unfortunate that it takes somethig like this to make mgt wake up

This is the type of safety equipment that I can see the FAA mandating after the NTSB report.

It truly is a shame, my thoughts and prayers go out to the familes of those who lost loved ones.

How hard will it be for Comair to defend the choice NOT to purchase RAAS? I hope the person who made the decision not to purchase RAAS, can sleep with himself

 

[172driver]

How hard will it be for Comair to defend the choice NOT to purchase RAAS? I hope the person who made the decision not to purchase RAAS, can sleep with himself

That person would first have to defend the choice not to purchase GPS on half of the airplanes, which I assume is required for RAAS. That person would not be an employee of Comair either, as mother Delta controls all such expenditures. Since they can't even seem to afford tugs to push back airplanes, I doubt if we'll see RAAS any time soon, unless mandated by the FAA.

 

[ReportCanoa]

Just like the computer meltdown. Delta's fault for not spending the money on upgrades, but Comair's fault anyway. This is a Delta problem, and nothing else.

 

[777_Jackpot]

The really HORRIBLE thing is that the technology exists TODAY to have stoped this.

Yeah its called a heading bug.

 

[ReportCanoa]

ignore list has been updated.

 

[MACHTRANSDUCER]

Gps

some other comair person correct me however, i believe ALL comair jets are now upgraded with GPS. This was only done in 2004 or 2005, mostly done because of FAA mandate for gpws and egpws.
R.I.P. Thoughts and prayers.

 

[172driver]

some other comair person correct me however, i believe ALL comair jets are now upgraded with GPS. This was only done in 2004 or 2005, mostly done because of FAA mandate for gpws and egpws.
R.I.P. Thoughts and prayers.

Nope.

 

[millhouse21]

The egpws probably has a GPS in it that you don't know about or have access to. The J41 was like that. No GPS available for navigation but it does live inside the EGPWS.

 

[JetPilot_Mike]

Not all Comair aircraft have GPS. I believe EGPWS uses a terrain overlay which is provided aircraft position from the FMS. Which is why when the FMS goes into DR, you get a TERRAIN NOT AVAILABLE status message.

 

[Soverytired]

Yeah its called a heading bug.

Ah, another perfect pilot enters our midst.

By your "logic"

Pilots don't need EGPWS . . . we have altimeters and navs for positional awareness.

Pilots don't need gear warning horns . . . we have checklist.

Pilots don't need TCAS . . . . for that is the job of equally infallible ATC.

Pilots don't need runway incursion warning systems or hold short lighting at busy airports. . . .for we have paint on the pavement.

Pilots don't need Windshear warning systems . . . for we have weather reports and airspeed indicators.

Pilots don't need stall warning systems and shakers . . . for pilots would never fly below Vs 1.3.

Pilots don't need overspeed indicators . . . for we would never exceed a flap speed for VMO thanks to our airspeed indicators.

=====================================================

Unfortunately though, all pilots aren't 100% "perfect" as you. So thank you very, much, but I'll take all the help I can get when it comes to catching stupid mistakes.

(but you can of course ignore all those warning systems when you're flying . . .. after all, YOU would never make a mistake, and if they ever activated you no doubt have a broken warning system)

 

[atrdriver]

Ah, another perfect pilot enters our midst.

By your "logic"

Pilots don't need EGPWS . . . we have altimeters and navs for positional awareness.

Pilots don't need gear warning horns . . . we have checklist.

Pilots don't need TCAS . . . . for that is the job of equally infallible ATC.

Pilots don't need runway incursion warning systems or hold short lighting at busy airports. . . .for we have paint on the pavement.

Pilots don't need Windshear warning systems . . . for we have weather reports and airspeed indicators.

Pilots don't need stall warning systems and shakers . . . for pilots would never fly below Vs 1.3.

Pilots don't need overspeed indicators . . . for we would never exceed a flap speed for VMO thanks to our airspeed indicators.

=====================================================

Unfortunately though, all pilots aren't 100% "perfect" as you. So thank you very, much, but I'll take all the help I can get when it comes to catching stupid mistakes.

(but you can of course ignore all those warning systems when you're flying . . .. after all, YOU would never make a mistake, and if they ever activated you no doubt have a broken warning system)

I agree that all the warning systems are great, but how many accidents can you remember where the GPWS has sounded and both pilots ignored it until it was too late? I can think of 2 off the top of my head. Mindset is a big part of this. If, for whatever reason, you think that a condition exists, it takes a pretty big jolt to break that conviction. Sometimes that jolt is just your FO saying what are you doing. But if BOTH pilots are under the same impression, for whatever reason, even a warning system may not help break the chain.

 

[PCL_128]

ignore list has been updated.

I've got more than a couple of names to add to mine too. This incident has really shown who the pathetic **************************************** around here are. Some of you people make me sick.

 

[Soverytired]

I agree that all the warning systems are great, but how many accidents can you remember where the GPWS has sounded and both pilots ignored it until it was too late? I can think of 2 off the top of my head. Mindset is a big part of this. If, for whatever reason, you think that a condition exists, it takes a pretty big jolt to break that conviction. Sometimes that jolt is just your FO saying what are you doing. But if BOTH pilots are under the same impression, for whatever reason, even a warning system may not help break the chain.

Agreed.

I was responding more to the attitude that all pilots must do is be perfect and all will be just fine. Clearly, pilots are human, they screw up daily, and these warning systems have undoubtly saved thousands of lives.

In this instance, a "heading bug" cannot be considered an active warning system. An FMS/nav based runway alignment warning system as discussed over multiple forumns recently IS.

I'm not aware of it's feasibility in the real world, but I DO think there are very, very few pilots who would continue a takeoff with a "ding ding ding, WRONG RUNWAY DOOFUS" aural warning when takeoff power is applied. At least without being very, very certain they were on the right runway, which is after all the whole point.

 

[acaTerry]

I never knew there were so many pilots who could not make a mistake.

 

[CatYaaak]

.....

aca Terry,

No I don't see the trend and I doubt there is one. Most accidents where fatigue is cited as a factor occur at the end of a long duty day, not at the beginning if legal rest was met. And if rested/adjusted, the fact that it's night or day when the duty occurs is irrelevant in terms of fatigue playing a part.

There are, of course, other inherent risks involved in night flying vs. daytime ops, but it would be erroneous to assume there is an automatic "fatigue" issue just because someone got up early to fly, especially on the first leg of the day.

Conversly, if you're fatigued due to "rolling-reserve" policies, or due to personal habits if you don't, or hold a line, likewise it makes no difference if it's night, day, or early morning.

Too bad about your old airline's policy. Who'd want to work for a company like that anyway? If I'd made my best effort to rest when required but had to make that 3rd call because they jerked me around, I'd walk away with a clear concience. In fact, I'd have been looking around for a new job beginning immediately after I'd placed my 2nd call in order to make the transition seamless.

 

[regionaltard]

As surely as night follows day, this:

The really HORRIBLE thing is that the technology exists TODAY to have stoped this......

.....Yeah its called a heading bug.

leads to this:

.....ignore list has been updated......

.....Ah, another perfect pilot enters our midst......

.....I've got more than a couple of names to add to mine too......

Thanks for helping keep Flight Info "Responsibility Free."

 

[standaman]

Yeah its called a heading bug.

It is common practice at our airline that the heading bug be set to any departure heading given by tower. I do not know if one was given on this particular departure. Maybe this is something that might have to change. I am curious to see if other CRJ operators do this too.

 

[JP4user]

This is not meant as a flame or any type of remark about the crew.

I would assume the crj has efis. Do these displays show the runway on the hsi portion? Our displays on the Boeing have a white runway during t/o and landing. I am just curious if this is not presented in the crj.

 

[imacdog]

The display shows a very basic outline indicating a runway. It is not as advanced of a display as you would find on a Garmin 430 in a 172.

 

[Lear70]

It is common practice at our airline that the heading bug be set to any departure heading given by tower. I do not know if one was given on this particular departure. Maybe this is something that might have to change. I am curious to see if other CRJ operators do this too.

Seting the heading but to the TOWER ASSIGNED HEADING would NOT have helped them in this scenario if it was anything other than RUNWAY HEADING.

Consider taking off on either runway and you're given a departure clearance that says:

"On takeoff fly heading 180, runway 22, cleared for takeoff".

You spin the heading bug to 180, verify it on the FCP, and blast off. Either runway would be a left turn... how would that have helped?

I would bet good money that 90% of the turbojet 121 operators out there have you set (or pre-set as the case may be in a different aircraft) the tower-assigned departure heading in the FCP window.

Speed mode, heading mode, autopilot on, right? Wouldn't have shown up until they engaged heading mode anyway, the CRJ defaults to roll mode of runway heading +/- 5 degrees on takeoff until another lateral mode is selected on the FCP.

This is purely a question of "Why did they enter the wrong runway and what would have broken the chain of events leading up to that fateful decision?"

 

[Lear70]

I never knew there were so many pilots who could not make a mistake.

No sh*t... uke:

 

[Hovernut]

Last I recall, Comair a/c #7326 and above have GPS, and so do the Skywest a/c we got on trade. Never made sense to me when you need its funcionality the most on an approach and missed in high terrain, you'd have the "Terrain Not Available" message because both of us were in green, and at least one in green data since descending below MSA in the mountains.

I know we've had an ops note out for some time specifying only the rwy hdg be set on the bug, not any ATC given departure hdgs. It's hard not to reach up and twist it to the assigned hdg when it's given. I'll make more use of my scratchpad on the yoke for things like that from now on.

I believe the config runway warnings and GPS would make superb additions to our a/c. As usual, these prior scrutinized expenses suddenly make sense when lives have been lost.

I have always been somewhat uncomfortable when there's a short taxi to the t/o rwy at some of the smaller airports, and while I'm doing all the 1st flight checks, the taxi speed (2-engine 1st flight) isn't arrested for me to finish the checklist in a timely manner and assist in monitoring the taxi. Less 'heads down' time for the FO will aid in overall situational awareness. I know I've been at LEX and have been running through all the checks as we make our way around that screwball intersection while it's still dark and I have to trust the CA that the taxi is going as previously briefed.

I'm just dismayed that it usually takes the loss of life for companies to spend money on equipment that exists and makes sense before the event.

Not all Comair aircraft have GPS. I believe EGPWS uses a terrain overlay which is provided aircraft position from the FMS. Which is why when the FMS goes into DR, you get a TERRAIN NOT AVAILABLE status message.

 

[172driver]

I know we've had an ops note out for some time specifying only the rwy hdg be set on the bug, not any ATC given departure hdgs. It's hard not to reach up and twist it to the assigned hdg when it's given

I may have missed an ops note but I'm certain that our FSM calls for bugging the SID or tower assigned departure heading if the turn is to be executed at 400' AGL, as it would be in LEX.

After I get the ATIS and clearance, the first thing I do is set the squawk, radio freqs, altimeters, heading bug, and altitude. If no hdg is assigned, I set the exact rwy hdg from the airport diagram. If we are assigned a different rwy than expected on the taxi, I change the hdg bug and the FMS. One of my pet peeves is that many captains will taxi onto the runway, then center the bug after I have taken the time to do this. It has always bothered me slightly because they are then bugging something other than rwy hdg. Since this accident, it takes on even larger implications.

 

[acaTerry]

aca Terry,

No I don't see the trend and I doubt there is one. Most accidents where fatigue is cited as a factor occur at the end of a long duty day, not at the beginning if legal rest was met.

Negative. Company recurrent showed us a study performed by experts. The conclusion was that there are no definitive, set results that across-the-board prove that one days' catch-up rest is adequate, especially if the circadian rhythmms were interrupted prior to a long day.

And if rested/adjusted, the fact that it's night or day when the duty occurs is irrelevant in terms of fatigue playing a part.

As stated above... You just contradicted your own point

There are, of course, other inherent risks involved in night flying vs. daytime ops, but it would be erroneous to assume there is an automatic "fatigue" issue just because someone got up early to fly, especially on the first leg of the day.

Conversly, if you're fatigued due to "rolling-reserve" policies, or due to personal habits if you don't, or hold a line, likewise it makes no difference if it's night, day, or early morning.

Too bad about your old airline's policy. Who'd want to work for a company like that anyway? If I'd made my best effort to rest when required but had to make that 3rd call because they jerked me around, I'd walk away with a clear concience. In fact, I'd have been looking around for a new job beginning immediately after I'd placed my 2nd call in order to make the transition seamless.

If you still don't have a job, consider NJA...hiring, and a good place to work.

......

 

[172driver]

I would assume the crj has efis. Do these displays show the runway on the hsi portion? Our displays on the Boeing have a white runway during t/o and landing. I am just curious if this is not presented in the crj

No it isn't. The HSI course indicator points to the first fix in the flight plan on t/o and there is no depiction of the rwy on the MFD either.

 

[777_Jackpot]

It is common practice at our airline that the heading bug be set to any departure heading given by tower. I do not know if one was given on this particular departure. Maybe this is something that might have to change. I am curious to see if other CRJ operators do this too.

I wasn't implying that prior to every departure the heading bug should be set to the runway heading. I was inferring that the technology already exists on every aircraft to verify the aircraft is on the correct runway (Compass/heading bug/the giant number on the end of the runway).

 

[777_Jackpot]

No it isn't. The HSI course indicator points to the first fix in the flight plan on t/o and there is no depiction of the rwy on the MFD either.

The first fix on the flight plan, as far as the FMS is concerned, is the 400' AGL fix aligned with the departure runway set in the FMS.

 

[ReportCanoa]

No it isn't. The HSI course indicator points to the first fix in the flight plan on t/o and there is no depiction of the rwy on the MFD either.

Correct. The only time I've seen the CDI lined up with the runway is on an off-the-runway RNAV DP out of Atlanta where the first path terminator is runway heading to an altitude.

777jackarse, you have been ignored.