Lets talk unions....

[ShutupandFly]

Lets take this discussion in this direction. Ok so you have a union and you get that first contract through. What are the members of the union supposed to do when the cost of living goes through the roof and your contract is not up for another 4 years? In my case I had to leave my last airline when I could no longer afford to live in the area. The ones that are still there are having to pick up second jobs or beg for overtime to make ends meet. But hey they go back to the table in 2009.

 

[Gimpy]

I don't care what the circumstances were at your shop. That ain't my issue. I support unionism.

Union's are good if they work right. However, in this industry, at this time, with this administration, a lot of them suck pretty bad.

What I don't think you understand is the fact that this is a dispatcher forum, with a dispatcher's perspective of unions. You being an ALPA pilot have a different perspective. Being one of hundreds or even thousands of line pilots far away from management gives you a great view of unions. 405, as an example, in one of 30 or so dispatchers with management breathing down his neck at any time. Reading his posts, it sounds like it sucks.

Try walking a mile in someone else's shoes.

 

[405]

Union's are good if they work right. However, in this industry, at this time, with this administration, a lot of them suck pretty bad.

What I don't think you understand is the fact that this is a dispatcher forum, with a dispatcher's perspective of unions. You being an ALPA pilot have a different perspective. Being one of hundreds or even thousands of line pilots far away from management gives you a great view of unions. 405, as an example, in one of 30 or so dispatchers with management breathing down his neck at any time. Reading his posts, it sounds like it sucks.

Try walking a mile in someone else's shoes.

Apparently, since our massive majority of 17 people voted it in, I'm supposed to just take it as the "will of the body" and watch my office take a massive sh*t. It has definitely had an adverse impact on us but I guess I'm supposed to sit back and let it happen since it's the "will of the body".

F*ck being a passive follower like Occam.

ALPA doesn't represent the entire airline industry.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Union's are good if they work right.

As opposed to all the things in the world that are good if they work incorrectly?

However, in this industry, at this time, with this administration, a lot of them suck pretty bad.

Ahh! So maybe the environment has more control over our fortunes than unions?

I'm not promoting unions as kryptonite or penicillin. I believe workers can achieve more collectively than they can individually. In bad times that "achievement" may be merely that they lose less.

What I don't think you understand is the fact that this is a dispatcher forum, with a dispatcher's perspective of unions.

Are you going to police the pilots that are posting on the F/A Forum? The Regional pilots posting on the Majors Forum? The Civilian pilots posting on the Military Forum? Lieutenants posting on the General Forum?

I'm offering an opinion on unions. My profile should make it clear that I'm not a Dispatcher. Since I'm just a pilot, you don't have to listen to me. (Pretend I'm one of your flights and I'm in Holding! :laugh: )

You being an ALPA pilot have a different perspective. Being one of hundreds or even thousands of line pilots far away from management gives you a great view of unions. 405, as an example, in one of 30 or so dispatchers with management breathing down his neck at any time. Reading his posts, it sounds like it sucks.

Good point. It also sounds like he's not happy, and chooses to blame the union for it.

Try walking a mile in someone else's shoes.

Welllllllllll. I've been in a union for many years now. I know something about what they can and can't do. 405 hasn't been in one for very long, and is judging unions based on his limited experience.

Maybe you could send him the same advice?

 

[405]

405 hasn't been in one for very long, and is judging unions based on his limited experience.

Maybe you could send him the same advice?

I don't want to be part of a business making money off of me that does nothing for me. If you want to call it "limited experience", fine.

A union is a business, Occam. Why is that so hard for you to grasp?

I refuse to pay dues to get nothing in return. Like I said ALPA may work for thousands of airplane drivers like yourself, but what is a union going to do for 30 people? Absolutely nothing.

Like he said, put yourself in our shoes. You're incapable of doing that though.

 

[Gimpy]

It's interesting how you pick apart everyone's posts and twist them to suite you're point.

Unions can work. I'm not saying they can't. However, they don't work for every situation and every person. I know a bunch of people in various unions and each will give you a different opinion on the subject. Also, I never said that unions have more control than the present enviorment. Everything affects everything. However, the present administration is pro-business and anti-union. Various airline management teams have led companies in the wrong directions and used Force Majeure and bankruptcy as crutches to renegotiate, or void contracts and usurpe power that was previously held by unions. It's what's been happening.

Are you going to police the pilots that are posting on the F/A Forum? The Regional pilots posting on the Majors Forum? The Civilian pilots posting on the Military Forum? Lieutenants posting on the General Forum?

I'm offering an opinion on unions. My profile should make it clear that I'm not a Dispatcher. Since I'm just a pilot, you don't have to listen to me. (Pretend I'm one of your flights and I'm in Holding! :laugh: )

This is great. I had to quote it. To the first part, I said no such thing. It's a message board. I'll let the moderators police it. I don't care. Just remember which forum this post was posted in and who has primalily been responding.

Also, I'm not going to pretend anything. What makes you think I'm a dispatcher? Did I ever say that? Don't assume. You have been making a lot of statements on assumptions.

I entered the discussion just giving my opinion that TWU isn't a good union for what happened in NY to the MTA. I stated if TWU helped screw thousand of MTA employees, just think what the TWU might do (or not do) to only 30 dispatchers in an airline office.


I'll say it again. Try walking a mile in someone else's shoes. You might actually learn something. Just because you are happy in your job with your union doesn't mean everyone else is. You don't have to read very long on this board to realize even some your fellow ALPA brothers and sisters aren't very happy right now.

I appreciate your conviction in you view. You just have to realize you don't know everything about everyone else's situation.


At least you are not a total dumba$$ like BART SIMPSON.

 

[ShutupandFly]

Welllllllllll. I've been in a union for many years now. I know something about what they can and can't do. 405 hasn't been in one for very long, and is judging unions based on his limited experience.

Maybe you could send him the same advice?

Well Mr. Capt. OCD boy, why don't you enlighten us poor misinformed dispatchers and tell us what the TWU is going to do for us. BTW I have had to deal with unions before this airline, as stated in my prev post that's why I left.

 

[Gimpy]

Hey Occam,

If you're calling AC560, Icahn, I guess that makes you Duane Woerth. It makes sense with the attitude that unions, especially ALPA is so totally awsome.

 

[81Horse]

... Lieutenants posting on the General Forum? ...

Wait -- the General has his own forum?

Razor, you've been casting pearls. Give it up. They won't figure it out until they need some representation; although it does sound as if they'd rather be subject to the disciplinary whims and follies of bad management than work under the terms of a binding contract.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Unions can work. I'm not saying they can't. However, they don't work for every situation and every person.

Hey 405! Are you reading this? Hey AC! You reading this?

I know a bunch of people in various unions and each will give you a different opinion on the subject. Also, I never said that unions have more control than the present enviorment. Everything affects everything. However, the present administration is pro-business and anti-union. Various airline management teams have led companies in the wrong directions and used Force Majeure and bankruptcy as crutches to renegotiate, or void contracts and usurpe power that was previously held by unions. It's what's been happening.

Well put.

A disgruntled dispatcher in a single office might NOT be the ultimate expert on unions.

What makes you think I'm a dispatcher? Did I ever say that? Don't assume. You have been making a lot of statements on assumptions.

Sorry. Your profile was so illuminating...I assumed you weren't just a 14-year old kid goofing around on the internet. I also assumed you had some connection to the issue. I'm sorry if I assumed you knew what you were talking about. It won't happen again!

I'll say it again. Try walking a mile in someone else's shoes. You might actually learn something. Just because you are happy in your job with your union doesn't mean everyone else is.

And I'll say it again; Why am I the only one who needs to go for a walk? Just because somebody is upset at their situation vis-a-vis unions, doesn't mean unions don't have a benefit for employees. You said it yourself: "Unions can work." Is there some reason you think I need that advice more than 405?

I appreciate your conviction in you view. You just have to realize you don't know everything about everyone else's situation.

Nah, I'd have to be working at the NSA to do that.

 

[Occam's Razor]

If you're calling AC560, Icahn, I guess that makes you Duane Woerth.

Yes...I'm Duane Woerth. See? You've ratted me out. Now I'll have to change my screen name to something inane....like "Gimpy".

It makes sense

Everything I post makes sense! But it's like a dog whistle. Only those with the ability to comprehend higher intellectual frequencies can hear it. Here....I'll post something for you: I like mittens!

ALPA is so totally awsome.

I agree. It's good to see you post that.

 

[AC560]

Hey Occam,

If you're calling AC560, Icahn

At least he isn't calling me Frank Lorezno :-(

 

[SKC]

If you'd have typed that on this Forum on September 10, 2001, you'd have been thoroughly taunted by everyone here. This industry, and this profession, rises and ebbs just like all the others. Not a lot of anti-union traction when many of us were pulling down $300k. Then some events took place that put pressure on that. They weren't caused by the pilots, the dispatchers, or anybody's union. They happened.

To be fair, the industry was on a serious slide down the hill well before 9/11.

 

[405]

My last post on this subject

I have said this more than once and I'll say it for the last time: If you only knew the entire situation we are dealing with, anyone that reads this might understand. I refuse to post my office's dirty laundry here. This isn't the place for it.

If the majority still wants a union, fine. They will have their union. I still don't feel we will reap any benefit from it though. I also don't feel that it's fair that none of us are being informed of the progress of our own negotiations. We seem to be deliberately being kept in the dark by our one special person during this process.

Razor, I never claimed to be an expert on unions. You know that.

81Horse, maybe pilots are subject to the "whims and follies" of management but we rarely were as dispatchers. It was a fair office in my opinion. Obviously, this is subject to argument since the union got voted in here. Most of the people who thought it was unfair have left. More people have been fired and quit after the vote than before. What does that tell you?

The ball is rolling to get the union out.

 

[Occam's Razor]

To be fair, the industry was on a serious slide down the hill well before 9/11.

No question. Do you think it would have been as dramatic as is has been without the dogpile! on the industry? (War, 9/11, SARS, fuel prices, anti-Labor President, etc)

There is also no question that the profession, in terms of compensation, workrules, and benefits, was at a very good place. I submit that unions had a lot to do with that.