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Lets talk unions....

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Hold West said:
Yep - unions interefere with management's right to: wantonly fire people, sexually harass them, age discriminate, overwork and underpay, lie, violate environmental and labor laws, violate OSHA requirements, cheat the public, hire illegals, on and on.... They HATE that.

As a dirty member of management who has worked in both union (predominately Teamster) and non-union environments, I can with out a doubt say union employees are much easier to manipulate then non-union ones.

For example at one company the union would actively assist us in firing people with less than 10yrs seniority. This was because they knew the person was being eliminated but not the job so they could gain another initiation fee, they wouldn’t have to pay any pension benefits (even though the party had paid in for several years), etc. The ease in contract negotiations was directly correlated to how much assistance we could provide the union (not the employees) in making $$$. Every contract I have ever seen includes the provision for forced overtime (though done by seniority), granted everyone wanted extra $$$ it was never an issue but legally we could force and the worker would have to accept the overtime; you can’t do that to a non-union employee.

In terms of firing people it is a lot easier to do in a union environment because the work rules are covered in a contract, merely find somebody breaking a rule and fire them. Generally after 2-3 trips down the hall and they lose their job and really have no legal recourse. With non-union employees you have a greater potential for a lawsuit and because often times work rules are loosely implemented (Timmy is always late but because he is a good worker doesn’t get in trouble, but Billy is late 3-4 times and gets fired).

Non union workers tend to be better able to switch jobs so you have to work a bit harder to hold onto them as people compete for them. Union workers have standard pensions so they are less likely to leave so you can treat them like ********************. While they tend to earn better initially in the long run they tend to earn less then their non-union counterparts but by the time that happens they would have to lose pensions and start again at the bottom of the ladder so they are stuck.

Because again Union workers are tied to benefits packages it is very easy to get them to vote on whatever you want through wage/benefit scales. Tell your current workers you will give them a raise in exchange for screwing new hires and you can pretty much get whatever you want. Tell them if they don’t give you what you want that you will kill their pension and they will agree to anything. No employee union or non-union really gives a ******************** about his fellow worker only his own direct benefit so he will gladly screw another employee over if it benefits him. The beauty of a union is you don’t have to individually get 1,000 people to screw each other over you can just present a document and get them all to screw each other at once!

Union threatens to strike, its no problem just lock them out and hire replacements (be sure to unionize them so instead of having to control 1,000’s of individuals you only have to control a couple union officials and repeat the process).

Personally I really don’t see any good served by unions, in most cases they are worse then the employer.
 
Occam's Razor said:
Thanks for sharing, Mr. Icahn!

You had me at, "As a dirty member of management..."


No ulterior motive here...no sir!

No sentence to sentence breakdown of AC560's post, Occam? What's wrong?

His post kind of stunned you, didn't it?
 
405 said:
No sentence to sentence breakdown of AC560's post, Occam? What's wrong?

His post kind of stunned you, didn't it?

"Stunned"?

Hardly. I expect my dog to bark and pee on the lawn. I expect my congressman to say he's "working hard" for me. I expect a management drone to state he doesn't like unions.

It's in his interest to promote an anti-union agenda.

Are YOU stunned?

If so, we may need to start at a more elemental level in our discussion on unions and unionism.
 
Occam's Razor said:
"Stunned"?

Hardly. I expect my dog to bark and pee on the lawn. I expect my congressman to say he's "working hard" for me. I expect a management drone to state he doesn't like unions.

It's in his interest to promote an anti-union agenda.

Are YOU stunned?

If so, we may need to start at a more elemental level in our discussion on unions and unionism.

Unions don't work anymore.

You obviously didn't like AC's post. It shows.

A union is a business. A union is a middle-man. I don't need a middle-man. It's all about money and power. They are making money off your dues and paying out exhorbitant salaries from this, but I assume you don't care. You have ALPA. Everything is all good with them.

I will state this for the fourth or fifth time for you since you cannot seem to get it through your thick egotistical, self-important skull: 30 people don't need a godd*mn union. What part of this is so difficult for you to grasp? They will not do anything for us.
 
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Well...most of the 30 people voted for one. What part of THAT is so hard for you to grasp?

A doctor is a "business" too. DIY brain surgery is not a good idea. (We'll consider you "Exhibit A")

A lawyer is a "business". DIY defense for criminal/tort cases is not a good idea.

A union is a "business". DIY contract negotiations is not a good idea.

Can you grasp any of that?
 
A large percentage of that 50% is gone. Decertification is the key word now.

As I have said more than once, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You continue to have no idea.

Fraternally,

405
 
Occam's Razor said:
Well...most of the 30 people voted for one. What part of THAT is so hard for you to grasp?

A doctor is a "business" too. DIY brain surgery is not a good idea. (We'll consider you "Exhibit A")

A lawyer is a "business". DIY defense for criminal/tort cases is not a good idea.

A union is a "business". DIY contract negotiations is not a good idea.

Can you grasp any of that?

Well.. yes... most of the 30 voted for it. Most of them have left now. They thought management was being unfair. They weren't being unfair. As I said, you do NOT know the full story. You continue to blindly defend a group you don't know.

You're reaching with the doctor/lawyer thing. It's a loose cannon argument.

Try again.
 
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Occam's Razor said:
Well...most of the 30 people voted for one. What part of THAT is so hard for you to grasp?

A doctor is a "business" too. DIY brain surgery is not a good idea. (We'll consider you "Exhibit A")

A lawyer is a "business". DIY defense for criminal/tort cases is not a good idea.

A union is a "business". DIY contract negotiations is not a good idea.

Can you grasp any of that?

When I need medical advice I go see a doctor

When I need Legal advice I go see a Lawyer

When I talk to a company about my terms of employment I do not want another dispatcher negotiating my future. That's what we have, one dispatchers trying to get back at the company and two that don't even work there. Then I have to swallow the fact that even though it's my future, as long as I am at the company, that they are discussing I am not alowed to have any idea what they are talking about. Top that off with when I tell the shop steward I can't support a contract that will cut my pay all I get is "I was very dissapointed with your letter. You are going to have to wait to see what's in the TA".

So Captian OCD boy can you grasp any of these concepts. How about this one, out of 33 dispatchers that were able to vote, 17 voted for the union http://kas.cuadra.com/star/images/nmb/039.pdf. I'll help you with the math, that's a one vote margin. Two weeks later the vote would have went the other way and the union support has continued dwindeling.
 
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ShutupandFly said:
... out of 33 dispatchers that were able to vote, 17 voted for the union ... that's a one vote margin.

In America today, this is considered a mandate. :rolleyes:
 
405 said:
Well.. yes... most of the 30 voted for it. Most of them have left now. They thought management was being unfair.

More Americans voted for Al Gore for President than his opponent. You're fortunate that the majority won in your case! It ain't always so.

Thank you for at least understanding that the determination for a union is made by the workers themselves. If you (the collective "you") decide to get rid of your union, it will be done by a vote of the membership. The majority will decide in that case too.

As long as they thought your management was being unfair, they voted the way they did.

405 said:
They weren't being unfair.

So I'll assume you voted "no" to the union? If so, good for you! You lost. There have a been a few elections in the past several years that have had an adverse impact on my career, but I accept them as the the "will of the body".

Bush got a majority of the votes cast in 2004. Think everybody has the same opinion of him right now?

Your shop might have a different opinion of your management right now, but unless they take some action (The Department of Labor has the gouge), it makes no difference.

405 said:
As I said, you do NOT know the full story. You continue to blindly defend a group you don't know.

Not at all. I don't care what the circumstances were at your shop. That ain't my issue. I support unionism. My comments (other than the shots I've taken at you for being a mouth-breather who believes all arguments for/against unions exist within your own personal experience) have been about unions. In fact, I was lured to this topic by it's title. Maybe you should scroll up and read it again...so you'll understand what we're discussing here.

Unions are NOT perfect organizations. Managements aren't either. I prefer unions because it's a level playing field...just like the Serengeti, where the cheetahs eat the gazelles...and never the other way around. Unions give the gazelles better odds. There is strength in numbers.

It's pretty clear to me that you won't understand that analogy because you "don't work on the Serengeti", and you're "not a gazelle". Anybody who doesn't work in your shop couldn't POSSIBLY understand about unions!

Scene.
 
Occam's Razor said:
promote an anti-union agenda.

I think you clearly misunderstand, business people like unions. It is pretty simple to manipulate them and in most cases the unions are more about making $$$ then the companies they are trying to fight.

My intent isn't to spread anti-union rhetoric just to point out that anyone with half a brain can look at the state of this industry and the people who have gotten screwed the most are the union employees. In reading this board it appears the only pilots making the fat $$$ and reasonably happy are the corporate pilots (non-union).

By all means keep waving the union flag, it makes my stock options go up.
 
AC560 said:
I think you clearly misunderstand, business people like unions. It is pretty simple to manipulate them and in most cases the unions are more about making $$$ then the companies they are trying to fight..

It ain't working, Mr. Icahn. Maybe we can getting Freddy Smith on here to talk about how much he loves unions. Or Francisco could tell us...

AC560 said:
My intent isn't to spread anti-union rhetoric just to point out that anyone with half a brain can look at the state of this industry and the people who have gotten screwed the most are the union employees. In reading this board it appears the only pilots making the fat $$$ and reasonably happy are the corporate pilots (non-union).

If you'd have typed that on this Forum on September 10, 2001, you'd have been thoroughly taunted by everyone here. This industry, and this profession, rises and ebbs just like all the others. Not a lot of anti-union traction when many of us were pulling down $300k. Then some events took place that put pressure on that. They weren't caused by the pilots, the dispatchers, or anybody's union. They happened. So it's Open Season on uinons, 'cause HEY!...it's all their fault!

AC560 said:
By all means keep waving the union flag, it makes my stock options go up.

And please continue your amoral focus on the best way to hammer employees.

It fits.
 
Lets take this discussion in this direction. Ok so you have a union and you get that first contract through. What are the members of the union supposed to do when the cost of living goes through the roof and your contract is not up for another 4 years? In my case I had to leave my last airline when I could no longer afford to live in the area. The ones that are still there are having to pick up second jobs or beg for overtime to make ends meet. But hey they go back to the table in 2009.
 
I don't care what the circumstances were at your shop. That ain't my issue. I support unionism.

Union's are good if they work right. However, in this industry, at this time, with this administration, a lot of them suck pretty bad.

What I don't think you understand is the fact that this is a dispatcher forum, with a dispatcher's perspective of unions. You being an ALPA pilot have a different perspective. Being one of hundreds or even thousands of line pilots far away from management gives you a great view of unions. 405, as an example, in one of 30 or so dispatchers with management breathing down his neck at any time. Reading his posts, it sounds like it sucks.

Try walking a mile in someone else's shoes.
 
Gimpy said:
Union's are good if they work right. However, in this industry, at this time, with this administration, a lot of them suck pretty bad.

What I don't think you understand is the fact that this is a dispatcher forum, with a dispatcher's perspective of unions. You being an ALPA pilot have a different perspective. Being one of hundreds or even thousands of line pilots far away from management gives you a great view of unions. 405, as an example, in one of 30 or so dispatchers with management breathing down his neck at any time. Reading his posts, it sounds like it sucks.

Try walking a mile in someone else's shoes.

Apparently, since our massive majority of 17 people voted it in, I'm supposed to just take it as the "will of the body" and watch my office take a massive sh*t. It has definitely had an adverse impact on us but I guess I'm supposed to sit back and let it happen since it's the "will of the body".

F*ck being a passive follower like Occam.

ALPA doesn't represent the entire airline industry.
 
Gimpy said:
Union's are good if they work right.

As opposed to all the things in the world that are good if they work incorrectly?

Gimpy said:
However, in this industry, at this time, with this administration, a lot of them suck pretty bad.

Ahh! So maybe the environment has more control over our fortunes than unions?

I'm not promoting unions as kryptonite or penicillin. I believe workers can achieve more collectively than they can individually. In bad times that "achievement" may be merely that they lose less.

Gimpy said:
What I don't think you understand is the fact that this is a dispatcher forum, with a dispatcher's perspective of unions.

Are you going to police the pilots that are posting on the F/A Forum? The Regional pilots posting on the Majors Forum? The Civilian pilots posting on the Military Forum? Lieutenants posting on the General Forum?

I'm offering an opinion on unions. My profile should make it clear that I'm not a Dispatcher. Since I'm just a pilot, you don't have to listen to me. (Pretend I'm one of your flights and I'm in Holding! :laugh: )

Gimpy said:
You being an ALPA pilot have a different perspective. Being one of hundreds or even thousands of line pilots far away from management gives you a great view of unions. 405, as an example, in one of 30 or so dispatchers with management breathing down his neck at any time. Reading his posts, it sounds like it sucks.

Good point. It also sounds like he's not happy, and chooses to blame the union for it.

Gimpy said:
Try walking a mile in someone else's shoes.

Welllllllllll. I've been in a union for many years now. I know something about what they can and can't do. 405 hasn't been in one for very long, and is judging unions based on his limited experience.

Maybe you could send him the same advice?
 
Occam's Razor said:
405 hasn't been in one for very long, and is judging unions based on his limited experience.

Maybe you could send him the same advice?

I don't want to be part of a business making money off of me that does nothing for me. If you want to call it "limited experience", fine.

A union is a business, Occam. Why is that so hard for you to grasp?

I refuse to pay dues to get nothing in return. Like I said ALPA may work for thousands of airplane drivers like yourself, but what is a union going to do for 30 people? Absolutely nothing.

Like he said, put yourself in our shoes. You're incapable of doing that though.
 
It's interesting how you pick apart everyone's posts and twist them to suite you're point.

Unions can work. I'm not saying they can't. However, they don't work for every situation and every person. I know a bunch of people in various unions and each will give you a different opinion on the subject. Also, I never said that unions have more control than the present enviorment. Everything affects everything. However, the present administration is pro-business and anti-union. Various airline management teams have led companies in the wrong directions and used Force Majeure and bankruptcy as crutches to renegotiate, or void contracts and usurpe power that was previously held by unions. It's what's been happening.

Occam's Razor said:
Are you going to police the pilots that are posting on the F/A Forum? The Regional pilots posting on the Majors Forum? The Civilian pilots posting on the Military Forum? Lieutenants posting on the General Forum?

I'm offering an opinion on unions. My profile should make it clear that I'm not a Dispatcher. Since I'm just a pilot, you don't have to listen to me. (Pretend I'm one of your flights and I'm in Holding! :laugh: )

This is great. I had to quote it. To the first part, I said no such thing. It's a message board. I'll let the moderators police it. I don't care. Just remember which forum this post was posted in and who has primalily been responding.

Also, I'm not going to pretend anything. What makes you think I'm a dispatcher? Did I ever say that? Don't assume. You have been making a lot of statements on assumptions.

I entered the discussion just giving my opinion that TWU isn't a good union for what happened in NY to the MTA. I stated if TWU helped screw thousand of MTA employees, just think what the TWU might do (or not do) to only 30 dispatchers in an airline office.


I'll say it again. Try walking a mile in someone else's shoes. You might actually learn something. Just because you are happy in your job with your union doesn't mean everyone else is. You don't have to read very long on this board to realize even some your fellow ALPA brothers and sisters aren't very happy right now.

I appreciate your conviction in you view. You just have to realize you don't know everything about everyone else's situation.


At least you are not a total dumba$$ like BART SIMPSON. :D
 
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Occam's Razor said:
Welllllllllll. I've been in a union for many years now. I know something about what they can and can't do. 405 hasn't been in one for very long, and is judging unions based on his limited experience.

Maybe you could send him the same advice?

Well Mr. Capt. OCD boy, why don't you enlighten us poor misinformed dispatchers and tell us what the TWU is going to do for us. BTW I have had to deal with unions before this airline, as stated in my prev post that's why I left.
 
Hey Occam,

If you're calling AC560, Icahn, I guess that makes you Duane Woerth. It makes sense with the attitude that unions, especially ALPA is so totally awsome.:rolleyes:
 
... Lieutenants posting on the General Forum? ...

Wait -- the General has his own forum?

Razor, you've been casting pearls. Give it up. They won't figure it out until they need some representation; although it does sound as if they'd rather be subject to the disciplinary whims and follies of bad management than work under the terms of a binding contract.
 
Gimpy said:
Unions can work. I'm not saying they can't. However, they don't work for every situation and every person.

Hey 405! Are you reading this? Hey AC! You reading this?

Gimpy said:
I know a bunch of people in various unions and each will give you a different opinion on the subject. Also, I never said that unions have more control than the present enviorment. Everything affects everything. However, the present administration is pro-business and anti-union. Various airline management teams have led companies in the wrong directions and used Force Majeure and bankruptcy as crutches to renegotiate, or void contracts and usurpe power that was previously held by unions. It's what's been happening.

Well put.

A disgruntled dispatcher in a single office might NOT be the ultimate expert on unions.

Gimpy said:
What makes you think I'm a dispatcher? Did I ever say that? Don't assume. You have been making a lot of statements on assumptions.

Sorry. Your profile was so illuminating...I assumed you weren't just a 14-year old kid goofing around on the internet. I also assumed you had some connection to the issue. I'm sorry if I assumed you knew what you were talking about. It won't happen again!

Gimpy said:
I'll say it again. Try walking a mile in someone else's shoes. You might actually learn something. Just because you are happy in your job with your union doesn't mean everyone else is.

And I'll say it again; Why am I the only one who needs to go for a walk? Just because somebody is upset at their situation vis-a-vis unions, doesn't mean unions don't have a benefit for employees. You said it yourself: "Unions can work." Is there some reason you think I need that advice more than 405?

Gimpy said:
I appreciate your conviction in you view. You just have to realize you don't know everything about everyone else's situation.

Nah, I'd have to be working at the NSA to do that.
 
Gimpy said:
If you're calling AC560, Icahn, I guess that makes you Duane Woerth.

Yes...I'm Duane Woerth. See? You've ratted me out. Now I'll have to change my screen name to something inane....like "Gimpy".

Gimpy said:
It makes sense

Everything I post makes sense! But it's like a dog whistle. Only those with the ability to comprehend higher intellectual frequencies can hear it. Here....I'll post something for you: I like mittens!

Gimpy said:
ALPA is so totally awsome.

I agree. It's good to see you post that.
 
Occam's Razor said:
If you'd have typed that on this Forum on September 10, 2001, you'd have been thoroughly taunted by everyone here. This industry, and this profession, rises and ebbs just like all the others. Not a lot of anti-union traction when many of us were pulling down $300k. Then some events took place that put pressure on that. They weren't caused by the pilots, the dispatchers, or anybody's union. They happened.

To be fair, the industry was on a serious slide down the hill well before 9/11.
 
My last post on this subject

I have said this more than once and I'll say it for the last time: If you only knew the entire situation we are dealing with, anyone that reads this might understand. I refuse to post my office's dirty laundry here. This isn't the place for it.

If the majority still wants a union, fine. They will have their union. I still don't feel we will reap any benefit from it though. I also don't feel that it's fair that none of us are being informed of the progress of our own negotiations. We seem to be deliberately being kept in the dark by our one special person during this process.

Razor, I never claimed to be an expert on unions. You know that.

81Horse, maybe pilots are subject to the "whims and follies" of management but we rarely were as dispatchers. It was a fair office in my opinion. Obviously, this is subject to argument since the union got voted in here. Most of the people who thought it was unfair have left. More people have been fired and quit after the vote than before. What does that tell you?

The ball is rolling to get the union out.
 
SKC said:
To be fair, the industry was on a serious slide down the hill well before 9/11.

No question. Do you think it would have been as dramatic as is has been without the dogpile! on the industry? (War, 9/11, SARS, fuel prices, anti-Labor President, etc)

There is also no question that the profession, in terms of compensation, workrules, and benefits, was at a very good place. I submit that unions had a lot to do with that.
 

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