Lets talk unions....

[Gimpy]

It's interesting how you pick apart everyone's posts and twist them to suite you're point.

Unions can work. I'm not saying they can't. However, they don't work for every situation and every person. I know a bunch of people in various unions and each will give you a different opinion on the subject. Also, I never said that unions have more control than the present enviorment. Everything affects everything. However, the present administration is pro-business and anti-union. Various airline management teams have led companies in the wrong directions and used Force Majeure and bankruptcy as crutches to renegotiate, or void contracts and usurpe power that was previously held by unions. It's what's been happening.

Are you going to police the pilots that are posting on the F/A Forum? The Regional pilots posting on the Majors Forum? The Civilian pilots posting on the Military Forum? Lieutenants posting on the General Forum?

I'm offering an opinion on unions. My profile should make it clear that I'm not a Dispatcher. Since I'm just a pilot, you don't have to listen to me. (Pretend I'm one of your flights and I'm in Holding! :laugh: )

This is great. I had to quote it. To the first part, I said no such thing. It's a message board. I'll let the moderators police it. I don't care. Just remember which forum this post was posted in and who has primalily been responding.

Also, I'm not going to pretend anything. What makes you think I'm a dispatcher? Did I ever say that? Don't assume. You have been making a lot of statements on assumptions.

I entered the discussion just giving my opinion that TWU isn't a good union for what happened in NY to the MTA. I stated if TWU helped screw thousand of MTA employees, just think what the TWU might do (or not do) to only 30 dispatchers in an airline office.


I'll say it again. Try walking a mile in someone else's shoes. You might actually learn something. Just because you are happy in your job with your union doesn't mean everyone else is. You don't have to read very long on this board to realize even some your fellow ALPA brothers and sisters aren't very happy right now.

I appreciate your conviction in you view. You just have to realize you don't know everything about everyone else's situation.


At least you are not a total dumba$$ like BART SIMPSON.

 

[ShutupandFly]

Welllllllllll. I've been in a union for many years now. I know something about what they can and can't do. 405 hasn't been in one for very long, and is judging unions based on his limited experience.

Maybe you could send him the same advice?

Well Mr. Capt. OCD boy, why don't you enlighten us poor misinformed dispatchers and tell us what the TWU is going to do for us. BTW I have had to deal with unions before this airline, as stated in my prev post that's why I left.

 

[Gimpy]

Hey Occam,

If you're calling AC560, Icahn, I guess that makes you Duane Woerth. It makes sense with the attitude that unions, especially ALPA is so totally awsome.

 

[81Horse]

... Lieutenants posting on the General Forum? ...

Wait -- the General has his own forum?

Razor, you've been casting pearls. Give it up. They won't figure it out until they need some representation; although it does sound as if they'd rather be subject to the disciplinary whims and follies of bad management than work under the terms of a binding contract.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Unions can work. I'm not saying they can't. However, they don't work for every situation and every person.

Hey 405! Are you reading this? Hey AC! You reading this?

I know a bunch of people in various unions and each will give you a different opinion on the subject. Also, I never said that unions have more control than the present enviorment. Everything affects everything. However, the present administration is pro-business and anti-union. Various airline management teams have led companies in the wrong directions and used Force Majeure and bankruptcy as crutches to renegotiate, or void contracts and usurpe power that was previously held by unions. It's what's been happening.

Well put.

A disgruntled dispatcher in a single office might NOT be the ultimate expert on unions.

What makes you think I'm a dispatcher? Did I ever say that? Don't assume. You have been making a lot of statements on assumptions.

Sorry. Your profile was so illuminating...I assumed you weren't just a 14-year old kid goofing around on the internet. I also assumed you had some connection to the issue. I'm sorry if I assumed you knew what you were talking about. It won't happen again!

I'll say it again. Try walking a mile in someone else's shoes. You might actually learn something. Just because you are happy in your job with your union doesn't mean everyone else is.

And I'll say it again; Why am I the only one who needs to go for a walk? Just because somebody is upset at their situation vis-a-vis unions, doesn't mean unions don't have a benefit for employees. You said it yourself: "Unions can work." Is there some reason you think I need that advice more than 405?

I appreciate your conviction in you view. You just have to realize you don't know everything about everyone else's situation.

Nah, I'd have to be working at the NSA to do that.

 

[Occam's Razor]

If you're calling AC560, Icahn, I guess that makes you Duane Woerth.

Yes...I'm Duane Woerth. See? You've ratted me out. Now I'll have to change my screen name to something inane....like "Gimpy".

It makes sense

Everything I post makes sense! But it's like a dog whistle. Only those with the ability to comprehend higher intellectual frequencies can hear it. Here....I'll post something for you: I like mittens!

ALPA is so totally awsome.

I agree. It's good to see you post that.

 

[AC560]

Hey Occam,

If you're calling AC560, Icahn

At least he isn't calling me Frank Lorezno :-(

 

[SKC]

If you'd have typed that on this Forum on September 10, 2001, you'd have been thoroughly taunted by everyone here. This industry, and this profession, rises and ebbs just like all the others. Not a lot of anti-union traction when many of us were pulling down $300k. Then some events took place that put pressure on that. They weren't caused by the pilots, the dispatchers, or anybody's union. They happened.

To be fair, the industry was on a serious slide down the hill well before 9/11.

 

[405]

My last post on this subject

I have said this more than once and I'll say it for the last time: If you only knew the entire situation we are dealing with, anyone that reads this might understand. I refuse to post my office's dirty laundry here. This isn't the place for it.

If the majority still wants a union, fine. They will have their union. I still don't feel we will reap any benefit from it though. I also don't feel that it's fair that none of us are being informed of the progress of our own negotiations. We seem to be deliberately being kept in the dark by our one special person during this process.

Razor, I never claimed to be an expert on unions. You know that.

81Horse, maybe pilots are subject to the "whims and follies" of management but we rarely were as dispatchers. It was a fair office in my opinion. Obviously, this is subject to argument since the union got voted in here. Most of the people who thought it was unfair have left. More people have been fired and quit after the vote than before. What does that tell you?

The ball is rolling to get the union out.

 

[Occam's Razor]

To be fair, the industry was on a serious slide down the hill well before 9/11.

No question. Do you think it would have been as dramatic as is has been without the dogpile! on the industry? (War, 9/11, SARS, fuel prices, anti-Labor President, etc)

There is also no question that the profession, in terms of compensation, workrules, and benefits, was at a very good place. I submit that unions had a lot to do with that.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

If the majority still wants a union, fine. They will have their union. I still don't feel we will reap any benefit from it though.
The ball is rolling to get the union out.

You reap what you sow...

If you want a union with officers getting kick backs.. then work for that.

If you want a union that operates with integrity.... then work for that!


From another thread.....

Anyhow, I'm very proud of our unions here at Mesaba. I know the ruling was a small victory, but victory nontheless. I'm a short timer at XJ now, and it saddens me that I will be leaving such a great group of people

So many of the working conditions we take for granted were forged by unions. 40 hour work week. Five day work week,etc....

Too many of us, because take for granted, that if there is a union we just add water.

Union organizations are not flawed. It is the membership who elects poor leaders and allows those leaders to fester.

 

[800Dog]

Toyota makes $40 million a day in profits.

GM loses $16 million a day. They have no profit.

Guess which one has a "Union" ?

Southwest makes profits.

Delta loses money.

Guess which one is more heavily unionized?

Until GM starts selling products people want to buy, they will continue losing money no matter what they pay their employees. Starts with the CEO, design/engineering teams and marketing. Get a clue.

 

[CRJDispatchKid]

You reap what you sow...

If you want a union with officers getting kick backs.. then work for that.

If you want a union that operates with integrity.... then work for that!


From another thread.....




So many of the working conditions we take for granted were forged by unions. 40 hour work week. Five day work week,etc....

Too many of us, because take for granted, that if there is a union we just add water.

Union organizations are not flawed. It is the membership who elects poor leaders and allows those leaders to fester.

XJ guy probably had to "leave" because he couldn't afford to live on a $18k salary.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Toyota makes $40 million a day in profits.

GM loses $16 million a day. They have no profit.

Guess which one has a "Union" ?

My Toyota was made in America by UAW union workers. My Toyota puts food on American Tables for American families.

GM products puts taco's on Mexican Tables for Mexican families and Canadian Bacon on Canadian Tables for Canadian families....

The global market is here....

 

[D'Angelo]

THe biggest problem with unions is the forced dues and the spending the dues on things you do not support. Also the forced fees are outrageous.Eliminate those and they would at least be bearable. They are too chicken to do that though

 

[Occam's Razor]

THe biggest problem with unions is the forced dues and the spending the dues on things you do not support.

As opposed to your taxes, which are always spent exactly the way you want them to be?

I have disagreements with my wife over how and where to spend money, but I still understand and appreciate our common objectives. I disagree with some of the priorities ALPA sets as well, but I believe the benefits of collective actions outweighs individual issues that may pop up from time to time.

 

[ShutupandFly]

As opposed to your taxes, which are always spent exactly the way you want them to be?

I have disagreements with my wife over how and where to spend money, but I still understand and appreciate our common objectives. I disagree with some of the priorities ALPA sets as well, but I believe the benefits of collective actions outweighs individual issues that may pop up from time to time.

I think the spending he is talking about is the union’s strong support of democrat candidates. Many union members are not democrats but because we are members we are forced to support a party we see as socialist. Maybe I wouldn’t complain so much about this if equal support were given to the Republicans, and Libertarians.

Unlike the government, many of us also see the unions as an unnecessary drain on out time and paychecks. I have worked for both union and non-union offices and the one thing I always noticed is how much the tension in the office increases once a union gets there claws into it. And the Icing on the cake is I get to pay for this tension.

As for the benefit of collective bargaining, we are still waiting to see that, and it’s not looking good judging from the silence we are getting from the union.

 

[ss9e]

I think the spending he is talking about is the union’s strong support of democrat candidates. Many union members are not democrats but because we are members we are forced to support a party we see as socialist. Maybe I wouldn’t complain so much about this if equal support were given to the Republicans, and Libertarians.

republicans don't need any money. libertarians don't have a chance. vote hillary in '08.

 

[Occam's Razor]

I think the spending he is talking about is the union’s strong support of democrat candidates. Many union members are not democrats but because we are members we are forced to support a party we see as socialist.

ALPA PAC gives a lot of $$ to republicans too. One of them is my congressman, Jim Ramstad. A republican on the Ways & Means Committee who (gasp!) is also pro-Labor!

It can be done!

Unions support those who support us. It's no different than any other parochial organization.

Prior to the last two Presidential elections, my union sent both candidates a set of questions regarding issues important to us: Age 60, Cabotage, Foreign Ownership, Pension reform, etc.

The both cases, the Democrat responded with a position that echos ours. The other guy ("W") was the exact opposite on every issue!

Maybe I wouldn’t complain so much about this if equal support were given to the Republicans, and Libertarians.

If they support us...we'll support them.

Unlike the government, many of us also see the unions as an unnecessary drain on out time and paychecks.

"necessary" <--- veritas!

I have worked for both union and non-union offices and the one thing I always noticed is how much the tension in the office increases once a union gets there claws into it.

You mean having to comply with a specific set of rules and conditions that they agreed to makes your management tense? Or perhaps their attititude makes others tense?

Probably a good thing, eh?

As for the benefit of collective bargaining, we are still waiting to see that, and it’s not looking good judging from the silence we are getting from the union.

I wish you luck!

 

[ShutupandFly]

[/COLOR]

ALPA PAC gives a lot of $$ to republicans too. One of them is my congressman, Jim Ramstad. A republican on the Ways & Means Committee who (gasp!) is also pro-Labor!

It can be done!

Unions support those who support us. It's no different than any other parochial organization.

Prior to the last two Presidential elections, my union sent both candidates a set of questions regarding issues important to us: Age 60, Cabotage, Foreign Ownership, Pension reform, etc.

The both cases, the Democrat responded with a position that echos ours. The other guy ("W") was the exact opposite on every issue!



If they support us...we'll support them.



"necessary" <--- veritas!



You mean having to comply with a specific set of rules and conditions that they agreed to makes your management tense? Or perhaps their attititude makes others tense?

Probably a good thing, eh?



I wish you luck!

And again you miss the point. It’s not there money they are using to support these candidates. They reach into our paychecks and take the money from us. If I want to work I have to pay the union off. Maybe you have missed this but I think this thread is an excellent example of the fact that not all union members support the same positions as the unions. For your other point, no the management at this company is not tense, it’s the dispatcher that are tense. Again you speak of something you know nothing about. I have never worked for a management team as supportive of the dispatchers as I have here. Some people have problems with them but they also seem to be the same ones that have never worked at another office before. I guess they expect this place to be like NASA mission control.

As for wishing me luck. Thanks, now that the union is here we are going to need it.