Latest ASA offer

[FORESTGUMP]

But you ALWAYS believe the propaganda management puts out, right, William?

The truth is somewhere in the middle.

Regardless, verbal proposals, or ones written in crayon on the back of a napkin do not make up an "offer" for the union to shoot down. If the company wants to make a serious offer, they need to call the NMB and get back to the table.

Until then no real offer exists, and my MEC did the right thing by telling the company no!!! And you know what? 92.6% of our pilot support the MEC! The last company poll showed that 8% of pilots trust Flight Operations management. Spin that one, Sport!

You guys keep bringing up this 92% over and over.....NEWS FLASH.....92% isn't terribly impressive for a strike vote. Particullarly when you consider 15% didn't bother to show up.

I'll go out on a limb here and say if the offer (that isn't REALLY an offer...yet)being talked about here the last few days here was put out to the members, it would pass by 60%+.

It IS time for ALPA to start getting something to US to decide on.

just my .02

 

[Willy21]

And speaking of representation, I agree with ASADriver - why weren't these proposals presented to us, the rank and file pilot for discussion?

I am not trying to bash you but if the mediator is not there then they are not official proposals. They are just "what if" sessions. The MEC is not going to pass anything on to the pilots until it is negotiated in mediated talks and is in line with the data the Wilson Center has gathered.

The company made a big move in my opinion. I am wanting them to follow through and sit down in real sessions and get this contract done. That would show me that they really want to get a deal done. That would also show me that they are ready to assume the leadership of our company.

 

[atrdriver]

You guys keep bringing up this 92% over and over.....NEWS FLASH.....92% isn't terribly impressive for a strike vote. Particullarly when you consider 15% didn't bother to show up.

I'll go out on a limb here and say if the offer (that isn't REALLY an offer...yet)being talked about here the last few days here was put out to the members, it would pass by 60%+.

It IS time for ALPA to start getting something to US to decide on.

just my .02

But, when you consider that of that 15%, I have personally talked to about 30 pilots who waited until the last minute and couldn't vote because they couldn't access the system over the weekend. And each and every one of those had planned to vote yes. That would have put the 92.67% even higher. Plus a good number of that 15% were recent departures that are no longer eligible to vote.

I think you are wrong, if the PBS system was explained to the pilots I think that their latest "supposal" would have gone down in flames. There is still no premium on the table, and a 2:1 duty rig does NO good without a trip rig. That is still a paycut for most, and most are not willing to take a paycut.

And Firehoser, to go by your logic, why don't we all just work for free just in case there is a future downturn.

 

[601Pilot]

If you can't walk away from this place and do better for yourself, either:

A) Your wife has maxed out your revolving credit and home equity.

B) You think this is a good job.

C) All of the above in which case you need to reevalutae your mental state.

Copy Dat!!!

 

[blueridge71]

I've also talked to several pilots who had problems accessing the ballot.

 

[HoserASA]

Why don't you take a chill pill and STFU MR. Dudley. Get Brian and go to the mall and spend some money shopping, have a nice glass of wine when you get home and then bake some biscuits. Leave the votes on verbal proposals to the MEC to sort out and relax. You are not going to get to vote on every proposal management verbally makes in these informal meetings the MEC has with them. Be nice and the MEC may even tell Brian how well you are following his orders so you can have a few more Sticky Stars next to your name at the 10 o'clock briefing Monday morning. Maybe pick up a trip on a bad weather day. That should give you and all pilots flying something real to worry about. For a map to the Lot 3 parking lot ask Brian L. for his and run a copy. When you show up to duty in make sure you go to Concourse C. We moved from the north end of D about 8 years ago. When you go to the aircraft and sit down make sure you are in the correct seat by looking for a tiller on the left side and your right hand should be close to the center console. If not swap seats before anyone notices. Have a nice flight. If Brian Wilson shows up to fly right seat with you make sure you use your cell phone and call in sick. There will be more Sticky Stars for your name for making a command decision in the publics interest. If you do accidentally get airborne don't be alarmed if you see a new runway in ATL. You should have that in one of your Jepps revisions if you did your G/O job and ordered them. Have a wonderful ASA day!:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Now dat thars funni....love it!

Hoser

 

[HoserASA]

being talked about here the last few days here was put out to the members, it would pass by 60%+.

Sorry old chap, but I don't think so! Management types that post on here don't get a VOTE!

Hoser

 

[HoserASA]

Regardless, verbal proposals, or ones written in crayon on the back of a napkin do not make up an "offer" for the union to shoot down. If the company wants to make a serious offer, they need to call the NMB and get back to the table.
Until then no real offer exists, and my MEC did the right thing by telling the company no!!! And you know what? 92.6% of our pilot support the MEC! The last company poll showed that 8% of pilots trust Flight Operations management. Spin that one, Sport!

Hey MrDudley. Why don't you ask BL why he won't return to the table? Until then anything said at these "unofficial" meetings does'nt count. If you really have some balls, contact one of the MEC officers, or a CNC member. They'll talk to you. Or even one of us P2P Reps.

Hoser
P2P

 

[JoeMerchant]

The SkyWest pilots need a reason to join a union. An ASA successful T/A will provide some of that impudence they need to challenge JA and his writing his rules as he goes along mentality. Delta never wanted to merge the two airlines (ASA/Comair). They realized that buying us was a mistake but were so far behind the 8 ball that it took a bankruptcy to get them to sell us for some emergency cash. They couldn't sell Comair because the value of Comair was much less than ASA. It also gave regional managements a chance to have mainline airline management write code share contracts that encouraged the race to the bottom if they were to acquiring flying.

We are not likely to get SkyWest pilots to want a single list with us. They need a reason and that will be provided with an ASA quality contract. Scope is a separate issue. We need to buy our own scope as part of these negotiations. Every pilot here should be willing to make it a strike issue. However, many won't because they see themselves as just passing through. In order to have success at our level we must get certain contractual language and Scope is the most important. JoeMerchant wants us to gut our contract giving us nothing to negotiate with. We will have MOST pilots then wanting to leave this debacle of an airline because the MEC was weak. We know his race to the bottom is not well thought out. His hatred for ALPA and this MEC is forcing him to choose the wrong strategy. If you have nothing this management wants there are no deals to be struck.

Our pilots also have to believe in the power of the pilots to bring this deal to a close. Many continue to do everything possible to keep this airline running. That is NOT THEIR JOB. If Delta and SkyWest management don't care about our passengers why should we voluntarily add that to our job description? If the pilots could just understand that THEY are the key to a successful contract we could close this deal in a few months. The company is stalling because they think time is own their side. Given enough reasons they could approach the NMB and request to return to the table and the NMB would restart negotiations. They would then have to produce or we would be much closer to a release. We need to stop the informal talks with our management because they are not the decision makers. We need to convey this message to the NMB that two times now our management has requested to stop negotiations in order to cost out our proposals and then seek permission from the decision makers to give them more negotiating capital. Who they are talking with needs to be at the table and the NMB needs to be pressured to bring them in. We need to engage in collective bargaining and stop this collective begging. Again our pilots are the key to all of this. The younger pilots need to realize that they are never going to get this management to respect us. All they need to do is look at how they treat the passengers that provide the revenue for our existence and easily understand that respect for us (the ones who require pay to continue to provide our services) is not possible or even necessary. Fear is a much stronger weapon against an abusive management than gaining their respect. If they fear us and the power of the pilot group to act as one they will actually behave as though they like and respect us. Comair had this in 2001 but due to their union leadership getting weak over the last two years has made that nothing more than a memory.

Back to the scope question. Delta pilots do not own scope. They lease it in every contact they sign. If they owned it they wouldn't continue to have to pay for it. They then trade if off for something they value more. Delta management refused to negotiate with ASA/Comair for flying because they feared the large number of Delta pilots and the clout that comes with those large numbers. Delta management knows that the Delta pilots will trade away part of the scope they just leased. This allows the regional’s to continue to grow and Delta to shrink. This provides a balance in the allotted flying and less power for the Delta pilots. All of us are responsible for the problems we now face. Mainline pilots should have never given away any of the undesirable flying. That was the start of all their problems. Now they are starting new carriers to provide jobs for their furloughed pilots. This is no accident. The code share pilots are in the race to the bottom. Mainline will use these new carriers for low cost jobs and in the future many of the pilots entering the work force will likely start at these NEW Union created airlines and move over to the newly down sized mainline carriers as positions open. The regional’s as we know them will consolidate and some will just go away. ALPA has no problem with this strategy. It is time to start defending the regional airlines that still have descent contracts and encourage minimum contract standards to ensure the quality of the jobs. Once we just give away our hard fought contracts we have lost. We will never get them back.

We need to DEMAND SCOPE and if ALPA can't support us in obtaining it we need to ask for outside counsel to prevent ALPA from just going through the motions and saying SCOPE is just not available this time around.

Pay attention to the organizing drive at SkyWest. If ALPA pushes for a vote before ASA has a quality T/A it will likely fail. If ASA produces a quality contract and copies are provided to all SkyWest pilots to read it will create the numbers to make for a strong vote for union representation. ASA is carrying the fight for the whole regional industry. This is the most important fight for the top tier regional’s because if we fail JA WINS. ALPA and their creation of their own alter ego airlines WINS. Mainline management WINS by having most of the growth shifted to the newly ALPA sponsored low cost junior seniority alter ego preferred carriers as growth is slowly shifted. Those working at the new alter ego carriers will find life in the minor leagues tolerable because it is the way to the quality mainline jobs in the future. They will be pulling on the same end of the ALPA rope. Things will be better for everyone except those that have many years invested in building the regional industry to where is is today and looking to increase the quality of these airlines in the future. LIVING TO FIGHT ANOTHER DAY IS NO LOINGER AN OPTION. We are being tested NOW. This is the most important contract fight and ASA pilots were not chosen to lead the fight is was just dumped in their lap. Too many other carriers have already shown they will buy growth and play the race to the bottom game. There are only a few regional’s left who have not sold out. Which list will we be added to. Show this management that you have had enough and will do YOUR JOB only!!!!!!!!

Bizjet, I actually agree with much of what you say, but I don't agree that our hope should lie in SKYW pilots joining ALPA. We would be better off making a single list a part of the section 6 negotiations. The only time a pilot group has forced a holding company to form a single list, has been during section 6 negotiations. It has happened 3 times.

1. Mesa/CCAir/Freedom
2. Republic/CHQ
3. EGL - Wings West, Simmons, Executive, Flagship

Those are the only cases of a pilot group forcing a holding company to form a single list among the various pilot groups flying under that holding company. In every single case, not all the groups were ALPA.

Every single case of an ALPA carrier trying to force a single list with other ALPA carriers, has failed. We tried with DAL and CMR in 2000 and we tried it with CMR subsequently. Neither attempt was successful.

So tell me, why would SKYW be different? What will make our situation different if we don't pursue it in section 6 and instead put our eggs in the "ALPA will take care of it" basket?

You actually have a fairly good comprehension of the issues, I just don't understand why you think SKYW joining ALPA will be any different than CMR or DAL being ALPA. It didn't work with them, it won't work if we wait for SKYW to join ALPA. We should push for it in section 6 like EGL, CHQ, and Mesa did.

 

[ASADriver]

There has been no offer. The only offers to this pilot group come from our MEC and they have not presented us with one. The pilots have decided and overwhelmingly voted that their MEC speaks for them.

There is an offer from the company. Even the CNC has verified it. They don't like it because of PBS, but there is an offer. The pilots did vote to strike, and they deserve to be kept in the loop as to what the current offer is.

 

[ASADriver]

Hey MrDudley. Why don't you ask BL why he won't return to the table? Until then anything said at these "unofficial" meetings does'nt count. If you really have some balls, contact one of the MEC officers, or a CNC member. They'll talk to you. Or even one of us P2P Reps.

Hoser
P2P

I'm not MrDudley, but I believe the company did come to the table. It is
ALPA that is holding out for more. I talked to one of the negotiating members and he verifiied that the offer was made. He said it was declined because of pref. bidding. Why can't ALPA at least be honest and say they don't like the deal because of pref. bidding. What's with all the lies and secrets. There isn't an offer, well wait, there is an offer, but we don't like it, well wait, it isn't an official offer, well wait we aren't really sure anymore. ALPA is looking silly here.

 

[PCL_128]

There is an offer from the company. Even the CNC has verified it. They don't like it because of PBS, but there is an offer. The pilots did vote to strike, and they deserve to be kept in the loop as to what the current offer is.

I hate to speak up here since this is really an ASA matter, but you are misunderstanding the difference between a formal offer and a "supposal." Pinnacle management came to us with a "supposal" last year also. It is not considered an offer under the law. The entire purpose of a supposal is to circumvent the Section 6 bargaining process and "suppose we were to offer this, what would you think?" Under Section 6 negotiations, any formal offer cannot be removed from the table once it has been made. That would be considered bad faith bargaining by the NMB. However, a supposal made in an informal session isn't constrained by these rules of bargaining under Section 6. The company is merely trying to gauge what your MEC and CNC are willing to accept. I can guarantee if the CNC had showed some willingness to take the offer, then management would have promptly removed it from the table, come up with a slightly less appealing offer, and then formally submit the new offer in front of the mediator. They are trying to figure out just how low the CNC and MEC are willing to go without actually submitting anything formally at this point. Your CNC and MEC were smart enough not to take the bait. You should thank them and be happy that they are smarter than some of the rank-and-file that would like to see everything put up for a vote. You elected these reps for a reason: to represent and bargain on your behalf. Let them do their job.

 

[atlcrashpad]

I'm not MrDudley, but I believe the company did come to the table. It is
ALPA that is holding out for more. I talked to one of the negotiating members and he verifiied that the offer was made. He said it was declined because of pref. bidding. Why can't ALPA at least be honest and say they don't like the deal because of pref. bidding. What's with all the lies and secrets. There isn't an offer, well wait, there is an offer, but we don't like it, well wait, it isn't an official offer, well wait we aren't really sure anymore. ALPA is looking silly here.

According to the Official Company web site for contract negotiations, there has not been an offer lately. WTF do you say about that?

 

[~~~^~~~]

PCL - 128, good points.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

You and I agree on a lot. But, there are a couple of mistakes in your facts which you might want to consider.

When have facts gotten in the way of the rjdc doing business?

First, it was ALPA, not Delta, that objected to our MEC negotiating scope, or even participating in negotiations which involved our pay and working conditions. Here are the letters from Duane Woerth which explain to Delta Management that they can not enter into negotiations with the ASA pilots. Delta says they are willing to negotiate with whoever ALPA sends to the table.

That's right. You worry about scope at your carrier, and we'll worry about ours! Why you can't seem to understand that comprehension is beyond any normal thinking! What you fail to exclude (as usual) is the FACT that DL's negotiations are between Delta ALPA and Delta management!

http://www.rjdefense.com/alpaletters.pdf

This denial of our representational rights set us on a course for the scope problems we have now. Following these letters we wrote ALPA what would happen (whipsaw) and filed grievances over ALPA's refusal. ALPA refused to hear the grievances forcing us to take the matter to Court, giving birth to the RJDC to fund the litigation.

A lot of good that has done for you. If you had half a brain ( and you don't ) you would retreat from your already career ruining persuit! Your group has etched a mark in the tree of aviation that I wouldn't go around beating my drum about!

No, I do not feel the ASA pilots share in the "responsibility" for ALPA's scope failures. Our MEC did a lot (particularly in the early days of this fight) to represent our interests. ASA pilots have taken the matter on, funding and fighting, for our representational rights. I'm very proud of my support for the RJDC and feel it is the best hope of saving our union.

Before you go hi fiving your success you should consider that 90% of your claims were summarily tossed out of court! Your being proud of the constand flaim bait and "lack of real facts," is what has killed your fight from the start!

Most of what you write, especially your last two paragraphs are right on the money. You are correct that this industry is likely to see a couple of regional airlines fail and ALPA is pleased to let this happen. You also very correctly point out that we probably need our own Counsel (not a Northwest Airlines Pilot on Medical Leave) advising our MEC. I would volunteer to pay a special assessment to fund our own Counsel.

Maybe this is where you should be sending your hard earned $$ instead of that toiled called the rjdc!

Our MEC and CNC have a tremendously difficult and important task ahead of them. My crystal ball tells me we are about 10 miles in trail of Mesaba, but I really hope & pray that I am wrong.

Regards,
~~~^~~~

Only time will tell!
scope out!

 

[FL990]

I talked to one of the negotiating members and he verifiied that the offer was made. He said it was declined because of pref. bidding. Why can't ALPA at least be honest and say they don't like the deal because of pref. bidding. What's with all the lies and secrets.

What lies and secrets...he told you they declined the "offer" because of pref bidding. Sounds like the only one that looks silly here is you.

Look, They spent YEARS working on section 13 of this contract and mgmt came in and tried to eliminate all of that work in one swoop!! NOT GONNA HAPPEN. Polling has shown that the majority of pilots are sceptical about pref bidding. The best thing for us to do is finish the contract with its current section 13, THEN go back and work on pref bidding.

And as someone else on this board has said, these so called "offers" are not official until they are made in contract language, infront of the NMB.

 

[Crash Pad]

Giving credit... I thought this thread had gone to crap on the middle pages that discussed woman and scabs... It is resiliant, however, who wants to take a high low on how many pages. Let me help it.

90 seaters on the ramp for northwest... Could management know we are getting the flying and trying to settle the contract in a hurry?

 

[CFIT]

90 seaters on the ramp for northwest... Could management know we are getting the flying and trying to settle the contract in a hurry?

Say again.....
Care to elaborate?

 

[ASA_Willy]

Profit margin v. profitability

Good point - you are right - its not the absolute numbers - its the profit numbers in relation to the cost structure - that is in fact the point I was trying to make with my figures. (Don't look at the absolute numbers - look at the profit numbers in relation to the cost numbers). A good non-airline example that also illustrates your point is oil company profits. Their percentage profit hasn't gone up but the price per barrel has - its the producer's price increase that is giving them the huge profit numbers - they are not gouging the public by charging more (in the sense of increasing their profit margins).

But nonetheless every business (and private individual) needs to hang on to some money to weather through the droughts, some money to improve and update infrastructure, and some "play" money available to take advantage of industry opportunites. Its hard to do that on a 7% profit margin with the volumes (cash flow) we are currently looking at, the vunerabilities we have to forces outside our control (fuel price, terrorism, etc.), and the increasing downward pressure on ticket prices as the number of players in our industry increases providing more choice for the customer.

Man, it's tough to keep up with this thread, since Willy has a job and a life, but I can't let you get away with the above so easily. You have a nice way with words, but have completely misrepresented my point. It is NOT about profit against the "cost structure". It IS about profit compared to investment.

You and Joe Merchant talk about profit margin as if it had some magical quality. But you can't talk about profit margin (which isn't even what your original numbers actually showed) as the key indicator of the company's financial well-being. The numbers you were throwing around are return on expenses, which is nice to know, but your 5% "profit margin" is only meaningful in comparison to similarly structured businesses. You can't be profitably in the long term without a positive return to expense ratio, but it is not the definition of profitability. A thin margin makes it tough going, but profitability is all about return on investment. In other words, am I making a good return on the capital I have tied up in the business?

If you want to do a snapshot of ASA's profitability, how about discussing the owner's return on investment? Skywest Holding paid $425M last year for full ownership and you say the 2nd qtr profit was $45M ? That is a quarterly ROI of over 10%, which annualizes to an incredible 42% ROI. Now that's some profitability. If Willy could get that kind of return on his investments, he would have quit working long ago! And if a new pilot contract really did cost $23M/yr (I can't vouch for that number), it would only reduce the ROI to around 36%. A big drop, but hardly a financial disaster.

So please don't get on here and try and make folks nervous about the company's profitability. Your "profit margin" and "cost structure" talk is all smoke and mirrors. We can make plenty of money for the owners, even if the pilots do get a raise. There is certainly a lot of risk in the airline business, but for now ASA is a real money maker for its owners. So far this venture has been very profitable for the gang out in St. George.

 

[atrdriver]

If you want to do a snapshot of ASA's profitability, how about discussing the owner's return on investment? Skywest Holding paid $425M last year for full ownership and you say the 2nd qtr profit was $45M ? That is a quarterly ROI of over 10%, which annualizes to an incredible 42% ROI. Now that's some profitability. If Willy could get that kind of return on his investments, he would have quit working long ago! And if a new pilot contract really did cost $23M/yr (I can't vouch for that number), it would only reduce the ROI to around 36%. A big drop, but hardly a financial disaster.

In other words, at a profit number of 45 million per quarter, Skywests investment will be fully paid for in 2 1/2 years.