LAS Picket huge success

[Hogprint]

Each new directive seems to shave a little bit more off our safety margins (lower fuel reserves, increasingly liberal maintenance policies, reduced training, etc.).

Finally and probably expectedly, there is an increasing threat of discipline and/or termination for anyone tripping in the minefield.

Good post Gandolf. Just wanted to re-highlight a couple of things you brought up. I think more than anything this is the crux of why moral is in the toilet.

 

[NJAowner]

Majik -- I apologize for not answering all of your questions. It is not easy keeping track of everything in a reply. I did make my concerns known to management (not directly to Santulli but to another highly placed person who has also handled issues for me in the past). We only discussed #1, #2 and #3.

Semore -- welcome back. As for cutting slack I am probably one of the more understanding owners. On the catering issue, if he knew meals were missing, just tell me. It has happened before and I am sure will happen again. Sometimes we can pick up something else near the airport. But to know, not tell me, and snap at me for looking in the closet where his food is -- thaty's a diffrerent story. Also -- since I have been reading on this board how hungry the pilots get and sometimes don't have times for meals between flights I have done the following over the years when crew meals havent' shown up(and I am not self congratualting but trying to explain I am not all self-absorbed either): (1) shared my meals, (2) ran out to a sandwich shop and bought lunch, and (3) when weather forced a change of airports and our catering was on board from the ferry but not ht ecrew meals, drove to the original FBO (15 minutes away) and picked up the crew meals.

We are all people and can get along together if we try.

On another note, with nothing being said to the owners from Columbus, I predict that this will be settled at the strike time or just after. So hold on and don't get to worked up. Labor negotiations (and most negotiations) usually get settled at the last possible moment. It is just the way it works. If either side settles earlier than the last minute, they feel something was left on the table and if we held out for another week could have gotten more. It is just the way it works (unless the strike is about egos and not $$).

Fly safe. Thanks for making safety #1.

 

[ClassG]

NJA Pilots:

I don't have much experience with "labor actions," but I have an idea:

Since I spend quite a bit of time around FBOs waiting on passengers, I have noticed that there are usually Net Jets Owners and Marquis Card holders waiting around, too. Not to mention, prospective NetJets customers.

I believe that it is EXTREMELY important that the pilot group continue to provide the highest level of service to the current customer base, while also getting the word out about labor negotitions (or lack of), working rules and conditions, etc.

Why doesn't the pilot group develop a small (index card sized) advertisement that you can leave lying around the FBOs, mixed in with the 100's of in-flight magazines they give away, etc. that explains that NetJets pilot will always provide "premium" service, but that it is more and more challenging to do so with coporate's current practices of (and list the problems).

It wouldn't take but a month for every owner to get hold of one of these (or be told about them) and if you provide a phone number for them to call the company to request management's position, they'll place a little pressure on the company. I've never met a "high-end user" who didn't think it was a waste of a phone call to NOT give their opinion about a service or product which could use improvement.

Of course, the FBOs would ask NetJets crews NOT to leave anymore around, but I think these things have a way of falling out of pockets or being put down and forgotten all the time.

Unless this is against some kind of arbitration ruling I've never heard of...
Just a thought. Picketing seems to take a little too much time and effort for the return on the investment. I've not seen your picketing covered on national news yet. Just make sure the card is large enought to be noticed and fully informative, but small enough to fit in the pocket for review and questioning later in the flight.

When the owner asks about it, a quick "I'm not really sure who's putting those out, but from what I've read, it's all true - you should really call and question the company's long-term intentions. May I carry your bags,sir?"

Simple, quick and they'll be found and read by EVERYONE who uses private jets to get around, sooner or later.

Good idea or not, just my thoughts.


Good luck guys, I hope you get EVERYTHING you're asking for. AND I hope the other departments who seem to be giving you grief over this are never in a position of needing you to cover their backs in a corporate disagreement. It would be smarter for them to realize NOW that what comes around......

ClassG

 

[El Chupacabra]

On another note, with nothing being said to the owners from Columbus, I predict that this will be settled at the strike time or just after. So hold on and don't get to worked up. Labor negotiations (and most negotiations) usually get settled at the last possible moment. It is just the way it works. If either side settles earlier than the last minute, they feel something was left on the table and if we held out for another week could have gotten more. It is just the way it works (unless the strike is about egos and not $$)..

As you might have read... I do not believe what happened to you is related to the negotiations. But it is interesting that the timing of these events coincides with the Decision of the NMB to NOT allow us to Strike.

This means that according to your theory this will NEVER be settled... because there is no Strike time.

We are screwed...

Unless instead of working for 50% of what a Corporate Citation X Captain earns I decide I cant wait any longet and accept the company's generous offer of 65%... Only to endure the continuous humiliating taunts of H2 and CatYaak and others about how our pay is ruining corporate aviation.

 

[Majik]

I did make my concerns known to management (not directly to Santulli but to another highly placed person who has also handled issues for me in the past). We only discussed #1, #2 and #3.

What was his/her response?

On another note, with nothing being said to the owners from Columbus, I predict that this will be settled at the strike time or just after. So hold on and don't get to worked up.

There is no strike time. The mediator put us in abeyance until the union and company reach a full agreement on financials and cost models. In other words - we will not be allowed the option to strike for a long, long time. I know you think, "Hey, it's only been four years, hold on and don't get too worked up." The truth is that it is too rewarding financially for Santulli to do anything but continue to drag out negotiations. So our only option is to make it extreemly unpleasant for the company to operate under the current contract. If an owner ever makes it to the plane, he/she deserves top treatment. Our only option is to try to see to it (legally, by following all of the rules) that there are very few planes available for the company to use. If it gets painful enough, hopefully Santulli will stop focusing on how much money he is saving by dragging this out and focus on saving his business. This is the only leverage we have because of the RLA. We tried for 4 years to play nice. It's now time to play to win.

 

[Publishers]

Unfortunately, as pointed out by Owner, negotiations tend to last as long as is given to them. Does this always mean a strike, no, or all companies with unions would always be there. Usually you set the contract renewal date as the object and that serves as some kind of barrier.

Secondly, you have to negotiate in segments. finding the things that you can agree on first, put them aside, and most importantly they are not opened up again.

As a union MEC, you have to have a grasp of what is really important to your members. The thing oyu all have to remember is that you will not get everything and everything has a cost. As example, if health care is the biggest thing to your members, you deal with it, because from the company perspective, the cost of that may be so significant they will not give in on any wages.

As I have indicated previously, you all seem to want to be paid like the top of the northeast corporate ladder but you also want all the scope and work rules like you are an airline. Most if the corporate guys march to a different situation.

Lastly, if you try and get all the ills solved in one contract at one time, you are going to get very frustrated. A good MEC will know exactly how much they need to get to achieve a majority vote. If they are trying to please everyone, especially the ranters, they will fail.

 

[AA717driver]

But when 2 adults are flying with 5 children...

Five kids!? You dog! I bet the older two are pi$$ed at you for whittling down the inheritance...

Seriously, you need to call an aircraft broker and get your own plane. Pt. 91 Corporate isn't union.TC

 

[Majik]

Seriously, you need to call an aircraft broker and get your own plane. Pt. 91 Corporate isn't union.TC

Not bad advice. About $6-7 million will get you a used XL. Offer 60k per year for a top-of-the-line pilot, $35k for a good FO, promise them outstanding salary and benefit increases next year, or the next year, or the next year. Take the money you save from their low salaries and put it in an account to fund charter services. Then, when you burn them out on broken promises, start all over again with a new crew.

Or, follow through on your promises and avoid the headaches and the guilty feelings when you pass a mirror.

 

[NJAowner]

All 5 were not mine. Though I do have more than 2. Had neices/nephews with us. No don't want the headache of my own plane. Don't fly quite that much.

 

[realityman]

NJAowner, very sorry to hear about the poor service you received from those flight crews. I can assure you that the majority of our pilots would NEVER think to treat an owner that way. Actually, the more frustrated I become with negotiations, the better the service I try to provide to our owners. I'd much rather the owners see how hard the pilots work for them and how NJA management is messing with us, rather than the other way around.


Unfortunately, I believe you will be begin to see a greater decline in service from here on out. Due to recent events (that involved the dismissal of two of our pilots), the company has made it clear that the pilots will be dealt with SEVERELY for ANY infractions of the company's policies, FOM, or the regulations.
So what does this mean to our owners? Pilots will no longer get up in flight to check on their comfort (regs are very specific about when a required flight crewmember is allowed to leave his/her station, and pax comfort isn't one of them). If a flight crew member even thinks he may be getting tired, that's it. The flying is over for the day for that crew. The company has made it VERY CLEAR that they will not tolerate tired pilots in the cockpit. So more canceled flights for the owners. If a flight crew has to delay a flight to bring the Jepps up to date, so be it. Gotta be legal. Part 135 flight and someone in your party doesn't have a valid government issued photo ID? Hope it's not a long drive to the destination (pilots have already had issues with owners and the company on this one too. No one wants to mess with the FAA, TSA, and dept. of homeland security).

And numerous other rules and regs that pilots used to regularly, uh, "gloss over" to help out the client.

Please keep in mind, these are not UNION actions. We are now in survival mode, as the company has suddenly (yes, most likely due to our negotiations and union activities ie informational picketing) decided to take a very hard line with ANY infractions (or PERCEIVED infractions) by the pilots of any rules. One of the worst parts of the recent firing of two of our crewmembers, is that it was supposedly an owner who turned the crew in, and the company fired them without even checking the facts. I won't go into the possible litigation coming up because of that, as it's irrelevant to this post. I just wanted to give you fair warning that we, the pilots, have NO CHOICE anymore but to follow the rules stringently. I don't believe we have EVER fudged the rules on safety-related issues, but now we have to take the same attitude about rules which may hinder service.

Again, very sorry for your experiences. None of it should have happened regardless of the rules.

 

[FAcFriend]

Due to recent events (that involved the dismissal of two of our pilots), the company has made it clear that the pilots will be dealt with SEVERELY for ANY infractions of the company's policies,

Including falling asleep.

I won't go into the possible litigation

It is really important that ALL pilots are offered the chance to defend themsleves since firing a pilot ends their career.


edited because I was sarcastic- sorry guys...it wasn't meant to be taken literally.

 

[acaTerry]

Plus I hate porn... and would have destroyed it if it were brought on my aircraft.

I don't believe it...I am NOT alone on this.

 

[x402]

Including falling asleep at 30,000 feet




First, it's more important that false accusations be validated, BEFORE a crew is disiplined.
Interesting information you have, 30k, no one has said that or written it in a way that you might have access to. Who's feeding you this crap you present in this forum? Now, you're begining to piss me off!

 

[CMHTroll]

The company has made it VERY CLEAR that they will not tolerate tired pilots in the cockpit.

One of the worst parts of the recent firing of two of our crewmembers, is that it was supposedly an owner who turned the crew in, and the company fired them without even checking the facts. I won't go into the possible litigation coming up because of that, as it's irrelevant to this post.

You are correct that litigation will settle what ever it was. But it looks like a lucky guess hit a soft spot. I do not believe that the company would fire someone over a trivial matter, therefor they must believe they have cause. To fire someone over a trivial matter doesn't seem likely as there is no logic in it as it wastes everyones time.

But whatever it was, it must have ticked off the Owner pretty bad. Now if the attitudes that are displayed on this board, are carried to the Owners then it is extremely dissapointing. Leave this issue to these two pilots and the lawyers and off this board. It does nobody any good.

 

[El Chupacabra]

Oh its always good when a crew calls in tired and is given a 10 hr turn for a 0200 show thereafter. Who wouldn't fall asleep?

Crew days need to be limited to 9 hrs of duty... just like office workers.

 

[CMHTroll]

What are the number of days?

Oh its always good when a crew calls in tired and is given a 10 hr turn for a 0200 show thereafter. Who wouldn't fall asleep?

Crew days need to be limited to 9 hrs of duty... just like office workers.

What are the number of days that you work 9 hour days, 10 hour days. 11 hour days, 12 hour days etc? I hear a lot of discussion but what are the numbers between the long days and 10 hour turns? Is it the norm or is it once in a while? Does it vary by fleet or is it across all fleets?

 

[Hogprint]

You are correct that litigation will settle what ever it was. But it looks like a lucky guess hit a soft spot. I do not believe that the company would fire someone over a trivial matter, therefor they must believe they have cause. To fire someone over a trivial matter doesn't seem likely as there is no logic in it as it wastes everyones time.

Lucky guess my a$$...

But whatever it was, it must have ticked off the Owner pretty bad. Now if the attitudes that are displayed on this board, are carried to the Owners then it is extremely dissapointing. Leave this issue to these two pilots and the lawyers and off this board. It does nobody any good.

Ticked him off so bad it took him a couple of weeks to get his story strait with RTS. Leave this issue to the pilots? Take your own advice. Leave it off this board.

 

[Majik]

What are the number of days that you work 9 hour days, 10 hour days. 11 hour days, 12 hour days etc? I hear a lot of discussion but what are the numbers between the long days and 10 hour turns? Is it the norm or is it once in a while? Does it vary by fleet or is it across all fleets?

It varies in all categories. The secret to being abused (14/10, 14/10, etc) is to have a working plane. Also, you'll get two early shows in a row and then, just when you think your body is getting into some sort of sleep pattern, you get an afternoon show. You tell your body not to wake up early on day three but I rarely win that argument. Nobody in CMH can believe that I am calling fatigued at 2000. "You've only been on duty for 7 hours," they say. "Yeah, but I've been awake since 0500 and I'm tired," says I.

I'm not sure you'll be able to understand unless you go through it personally. I used to fight through fatigue and warn my partner to watch me like a hawk when I was feeling a little sluggish. Now, in today's anti-pilot environment at NJA, I wouldn't stick out my neck one centimeter on any issue whatsoever. A lot of pilots have started taking a micro tape recorder on the road and taping their phone calls to CMH. So be careful what you say. You may be hearing your words again...

 

[realityman]

CMHtroll, my mistake. The devil is in the details, right? No specifics have been released yet, except for the following: The crew called in fatigued, and was then given a ten hour turn to a 2 AM show. From what little investigation has been accomplished so far, the crew claims they absolutely were NEVER asleep at any point (owner's word against crew's word). Not a single radio call was missed, waypoint missed, or procedure deviated from. And most importantly, it took the owner 2 weeks to call in about it.


These are just the peliminaries, but unfortunatley the crew was dismissed first without anything but the owner's word about what happened. So the question becomes, what are the rest of our pilots supposed to do? The only thing we can do: follow the rules, policies, and procedures as they're written. That way, there's little chance an owner can claim the pilots did something wrong. Sadly, this makes us extra paranoid about fatigue, as a fatigue issue just cost two of our pilots their jobs. So you can bet a lot of us will be shutting things down a lot earlier in the fatigue process than we have in the past. Again, it's NOT a union action. We are now in a position where we have to do things this way to protect our careers. If that means sacrificing some customer service to be totally legal, then so be it. If you take exception to that, maybe you should ask management about handing out discipline before all the facts are known.

 

[AA717driver]

The fatigue issue is real. I just talked to a friend who has one year in and she is beaten to death on her tours. She's not a complainer, either. Fatigue will end up biting some unfortunate crew and customer one of these days.

She's already doing the math on busting out of the training contract.TC