LAS Picket huge success

[El Chupacabra]

Thats right I say it has nothing to do with it.

I couldn't do those things if a gun was being pointed to my head.

 

[Majik]

Thats right I say it has nothing to do with it.

I couldn't do those things if a gun was being pointed to my head.

I didn't say you would. I was speculating that an idiot might. We're talking about what might cause idiots to start acting this way, not what would make you act this way, right?

So go ahead and answer my question - what reason do you attribute to this increase in idiotic activity if failed negotiations have nothing to do with it, solar flareups?

 

[Hogprint]

Why in the world would a person stand in the rain for four minutes and not pound on the door or at least let yourself in?

You must be one tall hombre if you can see inside an XL?

The last time I ordered lobsta, they didn't come packed in water.

I think I smell something like bad lobsta.....

 

[buttercup]

I'm calling BS on this-

1. If it was an ultra i could understand. You can see in the ultra no problem from the ramp. XL no way unless you are standing on your tippee toes and then only maybe.

2. 3 dozen live lobsters really doesn't take up that much room. Let me guess the lobster pound on the end of the runway in bar harbor. I've seen the inside of the xl baggage area it's huge. Even if they did have lobsters back there they could have easily put your baggage in. Why would they bring attention to themselves about the lobsters in the back? They would just cram as much stuff as they could into the baggage hold.

3. So we aren't allowed to listen to music while cleaning up, putting charts away, vacuming? Do u know what corrective actions the pilots took to try and get you your meals? Maybe they called the company and they were going to asap them to the plane but it didn't arrive in time.

4. No way in gods green earth would I allow this to happen. xxx in the dvd player with two guys cramped in a metal tube? Common now be realistic.

OWNAGE!!

 

[CapnVegetto]

Again, what was Santulli's response when you told him about your unpleasant experiences? Did he sound like he was aware that things are going to hell in a handbasket? What solutions did he offer to comfort your fears that this growing trend of unprofessionalism behavior was not going to continue or increase?

This is the entire point! Something that airline CEO's can't seem to learn, and now the frac. CEO's can't seem to learn. YOU CAN'T RUN A SERVICE BUSINESS WITH PI$$ED OFF LABOR. Especially a business catering to rich people that expect the world to be laid out at their feet. Unmotivated labor won't give a crap, they'll just do their job good enough to get by, and then go home. When you treat pilots like crap, they are not going to care about making your company look good. When in the hell are some of these management teams going to figure this out??

 

[FAcFriend]

This is the entire point! Something that airline CEO's can't seem to learn, and now the frac. CEO's can't seem to learn. YOU CAN'T RUN A SERVICE BUSINESS WITH PI$$ED OFF LABOR. Especially a business catering to rich people that expect the world to be laid out at their feet. Unmotivated labor won't give a crap, they'll just do their job good enough to get by, and then go home. When you treat pilots like crap, they are not going to care about making your company look good. When in the hell are some of these management teams going to figure this out??

this goes both ways-
How many aviation cos. have to go out of business before pilots stop putting themselves out of work?

 

[transpac]

Sometimes fact is even stranger than fiction. Like I said, for a long while, pilot attitude towards owners was increasingly good, but in the past month have been a change. Or maybe I just got four bad flights and crews. If these are pilots going by the "rules", please let me know what other rule I have never heard discussed on this board.

Instance #1. We show about 10 minutes into a hour long sliding departure, The plane and pilots were positioned 3 hours before the start of my slide. It is pouring rain. No pilot in FBO. We drive out on the ramp to the plane. Co-Pilot is sitting in cockpit havinbg lunch. It is an Excel so we can see in easily. Sandwich and chips -- no pre-flight papers. We are all standing out in the rain. I motion to open the door, He motions 1 minutes. Continues to eat sandwich, chips, soda, sandwoch chips soda. We are getting soaked. I motion again. He motions 1 more minute. Sandwich, chips, soda, sandwich chips soda. We are still in the rain. 4 minutes have elapsed. I know on the fuselage. He finishes his sandwich, chip and soda. Then opens the door. During this time, the other pilot does surface and we start loading the bags.

Instance #2. Flying back from Maine. Pilots have 3 dozen live lobsters in the rear cargo area. (they were at the end of their tour after our trip and then returing home to Columbus). We do not have enough room for our bags. Lots of comments about our bags. They want to put a few of them in the cabin (and in a way they usually do not allow -- not belted down etc.). I say -- gee I have flown the Excel hundreds of times and know what fits in the back. I stick my head in the back and that is when I discover the lobsters and ask about them. I accommodate their wishes and keep alot of bags in the cabin. During the flight, water and other fluids leak from the lobster boxes onto our luggage.

Instance #3. We arrive for our flight, crew is blaring a 90s grunge band CD at full volume in the cabin. When the doors open it is like the old Maxell commercial -- we are practically blown away. (P.S. --we were not early either). Once in the air we notice the catering has not been checked (we are missing 1/2 of it) and no ice in the cabin. All of the pilots crew meals apparently made it. While I am hunting in the closets for more catering, I open the closet with the crew meals and the co pilot says (and not jokingly and not in a nice tome of voice) -- "that's ours -- sorry all of yours didn't make it". I hadn't said a word -- how did he know that all of mine didn't make it??

Instance #4. Either pilot or co-pilot was watching XXX movie during positioning leg and left the DVD in the player (it was a straight one). After take off, I go to put a DVD in, find this one. When i happen to stick my head in the cockpit, I happen to notice a container for the DVD next to the pilot's seat. Then I said, "I think you left this in the player". Then it was one look of surprise.

These events are a little different than the pilot who wants to make sure he gets his 60 minutes between legs, etc.

Can't speak to instances 3 and 4, but instance 1 is total BS and instance 2 is unlikely for the reasons already pointed out. Wilt Chamberlain can't see into an XL cockpit from the ground well enough to determine what anyone there is eating. And, how could anyone determine from the ground that there were no "preflight papers" in the cockpit?

 

[Majik]

How many aviation cos. have to go out of business before pilots stop putting themselves out of work?

I'll let you know when it ever happens. Since every case of an aviation company going out of business is because of management errors, I'd focus there first if I were you.

 

[NJAowner]

Cross-Examination

Guys -- be realistic. The "flight deck" of an XL is not 20 feet in the air. I did not say that I oculd tell you what color socks he had on, but you can clearly see if he is eating lunch. And maybe I overspoke -- I am sure there were some preflight papaers in the cockpit -- he just wasn't reading them. He was eating lunch. And I apologize for the typo -- I did not "know" on the fuselage -- I meant "knock". I will correct the original post since I know none of you ever had a typo. I was also helping the pilot load the bags into the back while the family waited. Wait -- what about the FBO help -- let me stop you before cross-examination. I took the bags out of the car since I needed to say which ones where staying, which went in the back and which in the cabin. We did have some help.

And no the lobsters were not packed in water, however, the come out of water and usually some water drains from them. Are they ever completely dry. Some of you can take any sentence out of context and looks for holes in it. I guess that is what watching alot of the cross-examination at the MJ trial in FBOs does to you. Also, Diesel is correct -- there is a lot of room in the back of the XL. But when 2 adults are flying with 5 children -- there is alot to put in the back.

Just answer me this -- do you act the same towards your owners as you did 1 year ago or 3 years ago?? If yes --bravo -- you are a professional. If no -- you know what I am writing about. Can you say the same for your partner this tour?

 

[xrated]

Citation X average pay June 2005 Pro Pilot

Corporate - $130,000 Fractional - $67,000

Hell I only got $64K

Where is my 100% pay raise?

Looks to me if you want a 100% pay raise, you'll have find yourself a coporate job. I think you're doing the wrong kind of flying to make that kind of coin.

 

[FAcFriend]

Hey, I am not blaming anyone. I am just wondering when you guys are going to find a solution. Seems like at NetJets you didnt like the outcome the other way and now you are modelling the airlines. I have furloughed US Air people in my family, do you?

There has to be a better way.

I'll let you know when it ever happens. Since every case of an aviation company going out of business is because of management errors, I'd focus there first if I were you.

 

[FAcFriend]

You really have no idea what you are talking about, you must not know any of the people you have just slandered. It's a good thing this is anonymous board, I'm sure you wouldn't have the stones to say that to any of the people on the committee. You are a pitiful coward.

this is uncalled for. I didnt slander anyone. RE READ my post. If I have said something wrong, please let me know. I have only ever been open to opposing views on the board.

If I were in his shoes......

 

[El Chupacabra]

Yes I act the same toward the Owners.

What happened to you is an outrage.

Plus I hate porn... and would have destroyed it if it were brought on my aircraft.

 

[x402]

and while in negoatiations, BO and committee
don't have to fly
don't have to work 14 hour days
don't have to be away from home as much
don't have to eat crew food
don't have to carry luggage
His wife is happier because he is not on the road as much-

The only thing this guy doesnt have is more money- but that is debatable because we all know it costs any family more money to have one member on the road alot. Netjets wife taught us that.

You're a slanderous as*hole. The committee is working from a survey, not their best (self) interests.

I re-read your post just to be sure I didn't miss something. I didn't, you're a jerk.

 

[Majik]

Yes, I act the same towards owners as I did 5 years ago (and that means quality service). I make sure my partner does the same and have never had a problem with their actions.

Now in the past I used to overlook a minor discrepancy here or there so that passengers were not inconvienenced or the company could get maximum utilization out of a plane and crew. That NEVER happens anymore! So, if you get to my plane, it happens to be 100% healthy, my partner and I happen to be 100% healthy, my partner and I aren't feeling fatigued, and we haven't missed a meal, then we'll go for a ride you could brag to your friends about.

Now, NJA Owner, how about the courtesy of an answer to the questions I asked? Are you the type that just bellyaches on the board or did you stand up for yourself and call Santulli? Do you want him to correct these problems or does talking about it on this board peg your satisfaction meter?

 

[Semore Butts]

Wow....

NJA Owner,

I am just now returning to the line after my tour in Iraq.

I can't say what may be going on now, but I can tell you that I have never, nor have I ever known anybody that acted as you have described. Maybe those dumba$$es didn't realize you were the owner when you were standing outside in the rain, I hope so.

We have had private dialog and I do not dispute what you are saying.

It's been a long tough battle and I applaud what the pilots have endured. Lets hope an end is coming.

There is no excuse for such actions. I have not seen such attitude in my 2 year tenure at Netjets (before deploying), or my 3 years at Flexjet prior to that.

I would ask that you "cut a little slack" on the lobsters. Something like that is what people who can't afford to take their private jet to the Bahama's or Aspen do to make them feel special. It's kinda like the feeling Bob Crachet's family had when Scrooge got them the big turkey. (Look hon, ain't it great!)

I'm not excusing the way your baggage was treated, they should not have put you out in any way. I am not trying to be condensending about the jet to the bahama's remark.

These are good men and woman. If there has been such a radical decline in service it's because of the length of this contract negotiation, you can only take it so long, then you just have nothing to lose.

I sincerely hope this is not what I find when I get to the line.

I can tell you this, when I got to Iraq I ran into a buddy of mine that was the most happy go lucky guy you would ever want to meet. He had been in country for over 600 days, he was not the person I remember. He was gaunt and distant and had been run ragged. This situation is not as differrent as you may think.

 

[Gandolf]

NJA Owner,
First let me say that if your descriptions were accurate, I would say little to defend the crews involved. That kind of customer service is inexcusable, no matter what the state of labor relations are, but I have never come across a NJA pilot that would knowingly act like that. (That is not to say that I haven't been surprised by an habitually-late owner that showed up at the beginning of a slide.

However, you are correct that the environment has changed in the past 6-12 months. Being a pilot at NetJets currently is now akin to being a whipped dog. Too often, when we land, the customers are already mad at the company, the pilots, whoever. and many are none too shy about taking it out on the first NetJets employee they see. Try flying into these situations four or five times a day and see if it doesn't affect your outlook and job performance, especially when you AGREE with them that they are being treated poorly. Each revision of our flight ops manual and each "policy" memo shifts more and more responsibility to the flight crews ("If Person A didn't call you with Information B, it is now your responsibility to call Person A to find out why"). Each new directive seems to shave a little bit more off our safety margins (lower fuel reserves, increasingly liberal maintenance policies, reduced training, etc.).

Finally and probably expectedly, there is an increasing threat of discipline and/or termination for anyone tripping in the minefield.

While I fully support the union and the negotiating committee's goals, I won't be here enough years for any settlement (even a 100% raise) to have a material effect on my lifestyle. However, I can categorically state that this is a lousy place to work right now. No matter what you do or no matter how hard you try, it seems you will have pissed off owners, a threat to your certificate or your personal safety, or a carpet dance. While a year ago, I enjoyed the challenge of providing excellent service in my plane, I am now more concerned about my professional safety and integrity, and quite often that is going to require me to slow down and be more careful. Are these numbers from dispatch still correct? Has the weather changed and I need an alternate now? Is maintenance REALLY telling me the right thing about whether this mechanical discrepancy is OK to fly with? I used to be more trusting about these things, but the pressure to get more legs in a day out of a crew has caused some to play fast and loose with the truth.

My goals when I go to work now:
Don't hit anything
Don't hurt anyone
Don't risk your license for this job
Provide the best customer service, consistent with the above.

Hope you fly on my plane _ I am allergic to lobster!

 

[JetProp]

Good post, Gandolf

 

[CapnVegetto]

this goes both ways-
How many aviation cos. have to go out of business before pilots stop putting themselves out of work?

Who's responsibility is it to keep the companies from going out of business?

Answer: MANAGEMENT.

Keeping a company running well INVOLVES KEEPING YOUR WORKFORCE HAPPY. You can't have a pi$$ed off workforce. As management, you are responsible for the company, it's operation, it's employees, and it's bottom line. All of these are tied together. If the pilots want to be paid fairly, then you're gonna have to figure out how to do it because it's your f-cking job! You can cut wages all you want, but all that is going to do is pi$$ off your workforce, which will in turn cause them to care less about the company, therefore driving away customers, thereby putting the company out of business. Who's fault is it? Managment's fault. It is your JOB to find the happy medium. If you can't do that, you are incompetent and someone else needs to be doing it.

 

[Semore Butts]

Nice job Gandoff

You said it much better then I did.