LAS Picket huge success

[Majik]

What a crock of pooh. I'm so tired of you guys trashing this company and blaming it on your paycheck. You aren't evening LISTENING... the experience described by NJAOwner was directed at the way the pilots treated the passenger/owner, not the way the company is "treating" you.

Like I said, I, and most of the pilots are nice to owners. Some pilots are losing their desire to jump through hoops for the owners. I can't really blame them. Some pilots don't have as much patience as others. 4 years is a long time to wait for Santulli's promises. I do know he could correct this if he felt it were a problem. Obviously he must not think it's that bad, yet. I don't know how far he is willing to take it. He controls the image of his company. Sorry you can't see the connection. Being on the outside is what probably blurs your vision. Being on the inside is what probably blurs mine.

 

[Hogprint]

In the past 3 weeks I have had 4 flights with crews that have been horrible from an owner's service point of view. In each of these flights, it actually took extra effort for the crew to have the attitudes that they did. I have spoken with one other owner who also has had these experiences (they started just before Memorial Day). Sticking to the rules is one thing -- but the rules (and I have not ever read them) probably do not have a requirement of pilots flying "with a chip on their shoulders".

Please elaborate on this? What exactly did this crew do/not do that ruffled your feathers.

The "actual effect" is that the pilots are trying hard to alienate, irritate and pi$$ off the owners. I do not know whther this is your "desired effect".

And you have gleaned this knowledge from the past four flights? I can tell you sir you are way off base. If I down a plane it is for OUR safety, not to pi$$ you off.

Let me reiterate. The RULES are everything. Yes, as an owner and now under 91k you should read them. Maybe the next time you show up at the FBO, instead of having the limo drop you off at the plane, go through the lobby and pick up a FAR/AIM. Then you can brush up on all that pilot stuff before you go off half cocked on this board.

 

[Majik]

You can't pass that off on the company without also saying, in so many words, that when your pay increases they will see a noticible increase in customer service.

I offered a guy $2 to cut my yard with the promise that in a short time, cutting my yard would be the "best yard cutting job in the entire yard cutting industry." Four years later I still pay him $2. I've even become more demanding in the yard cutting tasks I assign him. And you think I should be shocked beyond belief that the quality of my lawn service seems to erode with every year that passes.

 

[Hogprint]

dspchr,

The statement "netjets isn't a premium product" came from a prospective owner. Not one of our guys.

Nobody is trying to trash the company. We are just stating the obvious. If you were looking for a share in a jet and company A has a four year lingering labor dispute and company B doesn't, who ya gonna go with?

This company is stewing its own goose. Just start asking around in the Death Star what is about to happen to training....

 

[On Your Six]

Just remember the old saying "you get what you pay for..." The same is true for pilots. Plenty of well-trained, experienced NJA pilots leaving for greener pastures at JetBlue, SWA, AirTran, UPS, etc.

 

[Majik]

Fact is, they, and everyone else, would probably come along side you if the company were not bargaining in good faith. Fact is, it's BECAUSE they are bargaining in good faith that your agenda is backfiring.

What a load of crap! Let's see, if the pilots would accept any offer from Santulli, you, the owners, and everyone else would come along side us and - do exactly what? NJA Owner said he was on our side for over a year. What exactly did he do for us again? See, I'm having a really hard time with your credibility when you make statements like this. Either you are greatly uninformed, are willing to blindly kiss management's butt and believe anything that comes out of their mouth is gospel, or you have an agenda that you are concealing. I think it's a combination of all three. I think your agenda is trying to keep a job you like but you are caught between Scrooge for a manager and pilots that want something better that was promised by Scrooge. You don't dare criticize Scrooge (because he's the one that gifted you with your dream job) so you direct your frustration on the poorest paid pilots in the industry.

And another thing, this company is definitely NOT BARGAINING IN GOOD FAITH any more than Ted Bundy was just out to date a few girls. This company is trying to wrangle every penny they can from a group of pilots that had the audacity to form a union. Santulli is trying to teach us a lesson and save a ton of money. He seems willing to risk the reputation of his company. He's a gambler and it's a game to him. You seem unhappy that the pilots are willing to call his bluff. If I lose this hand, it will be a lot easier for me to find another mediocre flying job than it will be for Santulli to start another NetJets. I consider that good pot odds since I don't have very much to lose.

 

[El Chupacabra]

Oh this is interesting Pro Pilot Salary Survey

Citation X average pay June 2005 Pro Pilot

Corporate - $130,000 Fractional - $67,000

Hell I only got $64K

Where is my 100% pay raise?

 

[FAcFriend]

I think this may shed light on what a difficult position this pilot group is in-

they want to be home more-
they don't want 14 hour days
they want better crew food
they want help carrying owner luggage
they want more money

and while in negoatiations, BO and committee
don't have to fly
don't have to work 14 hour days
don't have to be away from home as much
don't have to eat crew food
don't have to carry luggage
His wife is happier because he is not on the road as much-

The only thing this guy doesnt have is more money- but that is debatable because we all know it costs any family more money to have one member on the road alot. Netjets wife taught us that.

What incentive does this guy have to settle this contract in a timely manner?

I am not saying he doesnt want to settle it- but if i were in his shoes, I would be more willing to "hold out" than a line guy.

So you see, Casino folks, these pilots are really on their own-

 

[x402]

Sticking to the rules is one thing -- but the rules (and I have not ever read them) probably do not have a requirement of pilots flying "with a chip on their shoulders".

So, now we have to have the "correct attitude" while we fly your rich butt around.
Was your flight delayed?
Was your catering in order?
What was the problem? Some imagined slight or inattention to your needs, Mr Owner?
If the job was not done properly, if there were real issues then there are ways to proceed. If the crew was just not up to their sweet 'ass kissing selves', then they might have been tired or they might have been sick and tired of waiting on 1998 wages.
Did you wonder to find out or have you just assumed they were actively trying to be rude or inattentive. Maybe it was day one and they had been on duty since 0001. Maybe they were the recovery a/c and had been rushing to get your trip ready. Maybe they didn't have time to hold your hand while they did all this so they could provide you a safe flight, because that's the job, provide a SAFE flight, everything else is gravy.
You can't blame the pilots for turning this into the K-Mart of fractional aviation, look elsewhere.

 

[x402]

I think this may shed light on what a difficult position this pilot group is in-

they want to be home more-
they don't want 14 hour days
they want better crew food
they want help carrying owner luggage
they want more money

and while in negoatiations, BO and committee
don't have to fly
don't have to work 14 hour days
don't have to be away from home as much
don't have to eat crew food
don't have to carry luggage
His wife is happier because he is not on the road as much-

The only thing this guy doesnt have is more money- but that is debatable because we all know it costs any family more money to have one member on the road alot. Netjets wife taught us that.

What incentive does this guy have to settle this contract in a timely manner?

I am not saying he doesnt want to settle it- but if i were in his shoes, I would be more willing to "hold out" than a line guy.

So you see, Casino folks, these pilots are really on their own-

You really have no idea what you are talking about, you must not know any of the people you have just slandered. It's a good thing this is anonymous board, I'm sure you wouldn't have the stones to say that to any of the people on the committee. You are a pitiful coward.

 

[El Chupacabra]

Good Joke

I really think you should have saved that one for your Debut on Saturday Night Live. Or maybe Jay Leno could have used it.

Excuse me I laughed so hard I have to change my shorts now.

I think this may shed light on what a difficult position this pilot group is in-

they want to be home more-
they don't want 14 hour days
they want better crew food
they want help carrying owner luggage
they want more money

and while in negoatiations, BO and committee
don't have to fly
don't have to work 14 hour days
don't have to be away from home as much
don't have to eat crew food
don't have to carry luggage
His wife is happier because he is not on the road as much-

The only thing this guy doesnt have is more money- but that is debatable because we all know it costs any family more money to have one member on the road alot. Netjets wife taught us that.

What incentive does this guy have to settle this contract in a timely manner?

I am not saying he doesnt want to settle it- but if i were in his shoes, I would be more willing to "hold out" than a line guy.

So you see, Casino folks, these pilots are really on their own-

 

[ce750drvr]

I'm sure that your eforts are having an effect on the owners, but I'm not sure that it's the desired effect. I was recently fying for a large conglomerate company that has many business segments both nationally and internationally. Although their main headquarters operates GV's, they have recently sought supplemental lift for their outying business segments. Toward that end they purchased a share in a Lear45 and a complete 604 from FlexJet and a share in a Hawker 800 from Flight Options. When I asked why they didn't buy from the leader in the industry, NJA, they replied that, "In light of their current labor problems, NetJets is no longer a premium product."

GV

It has nothing to do with the fact that we are picketing. It has to do with the fact that management is forgoing customer service to make a point.

 

[NJAowner]

Rules?

Sometimes fact is even stranger than fiction. Like I said, for a long while, pilot attitude towards owners was increasingly good, but in the past month have been a change. Or maybe I just got four bad flights and crews. If these are pilots going by the "rules", please let me know what other rule I have never heard discussed on this board.

Instance #1. We show about 10 minutes into a hour long sliding departure, The plane and pilots were positioned 3 hours before the start of my slide. It is pouring rain. No pilot in FBO. We drive out on the ramp to the plane. Co-Pilot is sitting in cockpit havinbg lunch. It is an Excel so we can see in easily. Sandwich and chips -- no pre-flight papers. We are all standing out in the rain. I motion to open the door, He motions 1 minute. Continues to eat sandwich, chips, soda, sandwich chips soda. We are getting soaked. I motion again. He motions 1 more minute. Sandwich, chips, soda, sandwich chips soda. We are still in the rain. 4 minutes have elapsed. I knock on the fuselage. He finishes his sandwich, chip and soda. Then opens the door. During this time, the other pilot does surface and we start loading the bags.

Instance #2. Flying back from Maine. Pilots have 3 dozen live lobsters in the rear cargo area. (they were at the end of their tour after our trip and then returing home to Columbus). We do not have enough room for our bags. Lots of comments about our bags. They want to put a few of them in the cabin (and in a way they usually do not allow -- not belted down etc.). I say -- gee I have flown the Excel hundreds of times and know what fits in the back. I stick my head in the back and that is when I discover the lobsters and ask about them. I accommodate their wishes and keep alot of bags in the cabin. During the flight, water and other fluids leak from the lobster boxes onto our luggage.

Instance #3. We arrive for our flight, crew is blaring a 90s grunge band CD at full volume in the cabin. When the doors open it is like the old Maxell commercial -- we are practically blown away. (P.S. --we were not early either). Once in the air we notice the catering has not been checked (we are missing 1/2 of it) and no ice in the cabin. All of the pilots crew meals apparently made it. While I am hunting in the closets for more catering, I open the closet with the crew meals and the co pilot says (and not jokingly and not in a nice tome of voice) -- "that's ours -- sorry all of yours didn't make it". I hadn't said a word -- how did he know that all of mine didn't make it??

Instance #4. Either pilot or co-pilot was watching XXX movie during positioning leg and left the DVD in the player (it was a straight one). After take off, I go to put a DVD in, find this one. When i happen to stick my head in the cockpit, I happen to notice a container for the DVD next to the pilot's seat. Then I said, "I think you left this in the player". Then it was one look of surprise.

These events are a little different than the pilot who wants to make sure he gets his 60 minutes between legs, etc.

 

[x402]

Sticking to the rules is one thing -- but the rules (and I have not ever read them) probably do not have a requirement of pilots flying "with a chip on their shoulders".

So, now we have to have the "correct attitude" while we fly your rich butt around.
Was your flight delayed?
Was your catering in order?
What was the problem? Some imagined slight or inattention to your needs, Mr Owner?
If the job was not done properly, if there were real issues then there are ways to proceed. If the crew was just not up to their sweet 'ass kissing selves', then they might have been tired or they might have been sick and tired of waiting on 1998 wages.
Did you wonder to find out or have you just assumed they were actively trying to be rude or inattentive. Maybe it was day one and they had been on duty since 0001. Maybe they were the recovery a/c and had been rushing to get your trip ready. Maybe they didn't have time to hold your hand while they did all this so they could provide you a safe flight, because that's the job, provide a SAFE flight, everything else is gravy.
You can't blame the pilots for turning this into the K-Mart of fractional aviation, look elsewhere.

Looks like a little crow might be in order, I'll have mine crispy, please.

 

[NJAowner]

X402 -- If we ever meet, I'll take you for a lobster -- or lobsta.

 

[JetProp]

.....

 

[Majik]

Sometimes fact is even stranger than fiction. Like I said, for a long while, pilot attitude towards owners was increasingly good, but in the past month have been a change. Or maybe I just got four bad flights and crews. If these are pilots going by the "rules", please let me know what other rule I have never heard discussed on this board.

Instance #1. We show about 10 minutes into a hour long sliding departure, The plane and pilots were positioned 3 hours before the start of my slide. It is pouring rain. No pilot in FBO. We drive out on the ramp to the plane. Co-Pilot is sitting in cockpit havinbg lunch. It is an Excel so we can see in easily. Sandwich and chips -- no pre-flight papers. We are all standing out in the rain. I motion to open the door, He motions 1 minutes. Continues to eat sandwich, chips, soda, sandwoch chips soda. We are getting soaked. I motion again. He motions 1 more minute. Sandwich, chips, soda, sandwich chips soda. We are still in the rain. 4 minutes have elapsed. I know on the fuselage. He finishes his sandwich, chip and soda. Then opens the door. During this time, the other pilot does surface and we start loading the bags.

Instance #2. Flying back from Maine. Pilots have 3 dozen live lobsters in the rear cargo area. (they were at the end of their tour after our trip and then returing home to Columbus). We do not have enough room for our bags. Lots of comments about our bags. They want to put a few of them in the cabin (and in a way they usually do not allow -- not belted down etc.). I say -- gee I have flown the Excel hundreds of times and know what fits in the back. I stick my head in the back and that is when I discover the lobsters and ask about them. I accommodate their wishes and keep alot of bags in the cabin. During the flight, water and other fluids leak from the lobster boxes onto our luggage.

Instance #3. We arrive for our flight, crew is blaring a 90s grunge band CD at full volume in the cabin. When the doors open it is like the old Maxell commercial -- we are practically blown away. (P.S. --we were not early either). Once in the air we notice the catering has not been checked (we are missing 1/2 of it) and no ice in the cabin. All of the pilots crew meals apparently made it. While I am hunting in the closets for more catering, I open the closet with the crew meals and the co pilot says (and not jokingly and not in a nice tome of voice) -- "that's ours -- sorry all of yours didn't make it". I hadn't said a word -- how did he know that all of mine didn't make it??

Instance #4. Either pilot or co-pilot was watching XXX movie during positioning leg and left the DVD in the player (it was a straight one). After take off, I go to put a DVD in, find this one. When i happen to stick my head in the cockpit, I happen to notice a container for the DVD next to the pilot's seat. Then I said, "I think you left this in the player". Then it was one look of surprise.

These events are a little different than the pilot who wants to make sure he gets his 60 minutes between legs, etc.

This sounds extreemly unprofessional. In my 5 years here I have never seen or even heard of such behavior. It's inexcusable. If it's happened to you on your last 4 flights, I'm sure it's happening in increasing frequency with other owners also. I'm positive it's directly related to the failure of Santulli to keep his word. That's no excuse for their behavior but I can't think of any other reason for this large percentage decline in morale you observed. I'm sure we will all agree that it will get worse the longer this drags out. I hope Santulli doesn't let it slide too much more.

Again, what was Santulli's response when you told him about your unpleasant experiences? Did he sound like he was aware that things are going to hell in a handbasket? What solutions did he offer to comfort your fears that this growing trend of unprofessionalism behavior was not going to continue or increase?

 

[El Chupacabra]

I have to disagree with you Magic. I don't think these things have anything to do with negotiations. It has to do with some people being idiots.

 

[Diesel]

I'm calling BS on this-

1. If it was an ultra i could understand. You can see in the ultra no problem from the ramp. XL no way unless you are standing on your tippee toes and then only maybe.

2. 3 dozen live lobsters really doesn't take up that much room. Let me guess the lobster pound on the end of the runway in bar harbor. I've seen the inside of the xl baggage area it's huge. Even if they did have lobsters back there they could have easily put your baggage in. Why would they bring attention to themselves about the lobsters in the back? They would just cram as much stuff as they could into the baggage hold.

3. So we aren't allowed to listen to music while cleaning up, putting charts away, vacuming? Do u know what corrective actions the pilots took to try and get you your meals? Maybe they called the company and they were going to asap them to the plane but it didn't arrive in time.

4. No way in gods green earth would I allow this to happen. xxx in the dvd player with two guys cramped in a metal tube? Common now be realistic.

 

[Majik]

I have to disagree with you Magic. I don't think these things have anything to do with negotiations. It has to do with some people being idiots.

I didn't say these pilots weren't idiots (if they did what NJA Owner said they did). I'm saying failed negotiations have resulted in these idiots increasingly exercising extreemly poor judgement. I'm saying, the longer this drags out, the worse the idiots will act and that fringe idiots will become full-fledged idiots.

Let's say I am wrong. What do you think has caused this increase in behavior? If these pilots are idiots now, they were idiots before. Something has caused an increase in their idiotic behavior. So what do you think is causing this marked increase in their unprofessionalism if you think 4 years of failed negotiations has absolutely nothing to do with it?