LAS Picket huge success

[CMHTroll]

What are the number of days?

Oh its always good when a crew calls in tired and is given a 10 hr turn for a 0200 show thereafter. Who wouldn't fall asleep?

Crew days need to be limited to 9 hrs of duty... just like office workers.

What are the number of days that you work 9 hour days, 10 hour days. 11 hour days, 12 hour days etc? I hear a lot of discussion but what are the numbers between the long days and 10 hour turns? Is it the norm or is it once in a while? Does it vary by fleet or is it across all fleets?

 

[Hogprint]

You are correct that litigation will settle what ever it was. But it looks like a lucky guess hit a soft spot. I do not believe that the company would fire someone over a trivial matter, therefor they must believe they have cause. To fire someone over a trivial matter doesn't seem likely as there is no logic in it as it wastes everyones time.

Lucky guess my a$$...

But whatever it was, it must have ticked off the Owner pretty bad. Now if the attitudes that are displayed on this board, are carried to the Owners then it is extremely dissapointing. Leave this issue to these two pilots and the lawyers and off this board. It does nobody any good.

Ticked him off so bad it took him a couple of weeks to get his story strait with RTS. Leave this issue to the pilots? Take your own advice. Leave it off this board.

 

[Majik]

What are the number of days that you work 9 hour days, 10 hour days. 11 hour days, 12 hour days etc? I hear a lot of discussion but what are the numbers between the long days and 10 hour turns? Is it the norm or is it once in a while? Does it vary by fleet or is it across all fleets?

It varies in all categories. The secret to being abused (14/10, 14/10, etc) is to have a working plane. Also, you'll get two early shows in a row and then, just when you think your body is getting into some sort of sleep pattern, you get an afternoon show. You tell your body not to wake up early on day three but I rarely win that argument. Nobody in CMH can believe that I am calling fatigued at 2000. "You've only been on duty for 7 hours," they say. "Yeah, but I've been awake since 0500 and I'm tired," says I.

I'm not sure you'll be able to understand unless you go through it personally. I used to fight through fatigue and warn my partner to watch me like a hawk when I was feeling a little sluggish. Now, in today's anti-pilot environment at NJA, I wouldn't stick out my neck one centimeter on any issue whatsoever. A lot of pilots have started taking a micro tape recorder on the road and taping their phone calls to CMH. So be careful what you say. You may be hearing your words again...

 

[realityman]

CMHtroll, my mistake. The devil is in the details, right? No specifics have been released yet, except for the following: The crew called in fatigued, and was then given a ten hour turn to a 2 AM show. From what little investigation has been accomplished so far, the crew claims they absolutely were NEVER asleep at any point (owner's word against crew's word). Not a single radio call was missed, waypoint missed, or procedure deviated from. And most importantly, it took the owner 2 weeks to call in about it.


These are just the peliminaries, but unfortunatley the crew was dismissed first without anything but the owner's word about what happened. So the question becomes, what are the rest of our pilots supposed to do? The only thing we can do: follow the rules, policies, and procedures as they're written. That way, there's little chance an owner can claim the pilots did something wrong. Sadly, this makes us extra paranoid about fatigue, as a fatigue issue just cost two of our pilots their jobs. So you can bet a lot of us will be shutting things down a lot earlier in the fatigue process than we have in the past. Again, it's NOT a union action. We are now in a position where we have to do things this way to protect our careers. If that means sacrificing some customer service to be totally legal, then so be it. If you take exception to that, maybe you should ask management about handing out discipline before all the facts are known.

 

[AA717driver]

The fatigue issue is real. I just talked to a friend who has one year in and she is beaten to death on her tours. She's not a complainer, either. Fatigue will end up biting some unfortunate crew and customer one of these days.

She's already doing the math on busting out of the training contract.TC

 

[FredGarvin]

I'm confused....

Oh its always good when a crew calls in tired and is given a 10 hr turn for a 0200 show thereafter. Who wouldn't fall asleep?

The company has made it VERY CLEAR that they will not tolerate tired pilots in the cockpit.

So, they accepted the brief and flew the trip fatigued?

From what little investigation has been accomplished so far, the crew claims they absolutely were NEVER asleep at any point (owner's word against crew's word). Not a single radio call was missed, waypoint missed, or procedure deviated from.

First, it's more important that false accusations be validated, BEFORE a crew is disiplined.

So they weren't fatigued and the owner made a "false accusation"

I can't see how it can be both ways?

 

[El Chupacabra]

You forgot about the 0001E showtime....


If anybody gets fired it should be whoever is responsible for the horrible abuse of circadian rythms and the Supervisory error of upper management.

 

[x402]

So they weren't fatigued and the owner made a "false accusation"

I can't see how it can be both ways?

Fatigued is not asleep, still confused?

 

[realityman]

Fred, I didn't say the crew claimed they weren't fatigued, I said they claimed they weren't ASLEEP.

So, should we accept briefs if we're fatigued? No. Have we done it in the past? Yes. Will we be watching this issue much more closely now and calling in fatigued earlier in the process? Yes.

I think most pilots have a can-do attitude towards getting the trip done and providing good service to our clients. Even to the point of "glossing over" certain minor rules, or even ignoring what our bodies are trying to tell us. The point I was trying to make, is that because of the way the company is handling this, owner service may decline as we comply more fully with ALL the rules, policies, and procedures.

Oh, and yes, as you astutely pointed out, while the company claims it won't tolerate fatigued pilots in the cockpit, they continue to allow scheduling to schedule us in a way that has absolutely no regard for circadian rythms and which promotes fatigue. I especially enjoy the days where I finish in the early afternoon, only to be given that 2:00 AM show time. Ever try to go to sleep at 5:00 PM when you aren't tired?

 

[TonyC]

I do not believe that the company would fire someone over a trivial matter, therefor they must believe they have cause. To fire someone over a trivial matter doesn't seem likely as there is no logic in it as it wastes everyones time.

Believe it.

It's not about money, or efficiency, or logic.

It's all about CONTROL.




Management fires an employee, all other employees sit up and take notice. Their behavior is effected. Management has control.



Or so they think...









.

 

[Publishers]

While involved in labor problems, it is easy to see every single move as some major conspiracy to control and beat down the opposite side.

The fact is that I doubt seriously Netjets takes much delight in having to terminate a crew. They have an investment in them and replacement is costly.

Secondly, you are in the crew services business. If an owner or group of owners reports they have some major disatisfaction with a crew, it is difficult to keep that crew and then have to schedule around them or the client.

Several times in management of charter companies, I know customers who start by saying that they would like a certain crew and who then ended up saying they just did not want to fly with so and so. It had little to do with his skills of flying the aircraft and much to do with his demeaner and attitude. He had to go or only fly freight or check runs.

Does anyone expect a professional crew to admit they were asleep?

 

[El Chupacabra]

I'm confused....

So, they accepted the brief and flew the trip fatigued?
So they weren't fatigued and the owner made a "false accusation"

I can't see how it can be both ways?

Mr Fred,

Did you know... they have fired pilots for calling in fatigued.

Anytime I have to show before 6 AM I am fatigued to some extent. Should I refuse to work those days?

look up Micro Sleep. When people are sleep deprived or mentally fatigued they can have episodes of micro sleep and NEVER know that they had been asleep.

Now a crew assigned a 0001 Show on their first day... How will they recover from the sleep deprivation caused by this during their tour?

Two pilots were fired because of an event caused by Management.

 

[dsptchrnja]

Did you know... they have fired pilots for calling in fatigued.

Anytime I have to show before 6 AM I am fatigued to some extent. Should I refuse to work those days?

>>
Two pilots were fired because of an event caused by Management.

This thread is turning into total B.S.

Bottom line... if you are really fatigued, it is your responsibility to tell the company. NJA does not reprimand fatigued pilots nor any other employees who have not broken a rule. They don't want fatigued pilots flying a/c and they aren't trying to figure out if you're telling the truth or not.

No pilot has ever been fired only because he called in fatigued. Everyone knows your little game here... the victim card is not working. You know when your too tired to fly - no one else is going to figure it out for you.

 

[transpac]

No pilot has ever been fired only because he called in fatigued. Everyone knows your little game here... the victim card is not working. You know when your too tired to fly - no one else is going to figure it out for you.

B.S! It happens and it's not a game. The most recent occurance I'm aware of was about two years ago. The pilot called in fatigued and was terminated on the spot. He was off the payroll for about a year. The union filed a grievance and he was reinstated following arbritation.

 

[El Chupacabra]

You are ignorant of the facts.