Larger aircraft for Eagle?

[P38JLightning]

DCI's "upcoming" 100 seater "windfall"

"No we won't. Your MEC members are really hurting your career plans, not helping them. Think about it."

Bye Bye--General Lee


There is no way the Comair MEC is hurting the career plans of ANYONE who would support the blatent gutting of another carrier's existing contract, because anyone who wants to go down that path wouldn't accept a new hire Delta (or anywhere else, probably) job if you handed it to them on a silver platter.

You know, don't want to "start over" or give up seniority, go on reserve, commute or *gasp!* be just a 3 striper doing walk arounds in the snow, especially if it meant a first year pay cut (which in most cases it would). So the folks who truly believe in this "brave new world" of 100 seaters at Comair (if indeed there are any) are either harmless wishful thinkers (heck, maybe we'll get the retired COncords too! Wheeeee!) or they're intent on gutting the Delta scope clause for even the SMALLEST potential gain for themselves (see below.) They therefore have zero interest in going to Delta, so the fall out the junior Comair pilots may have to endure in the future is, for them, just icing on the cake. T

hey never liked to see a junior punk at "their" airline go to Delta in the first place, so if the byproduct of their scope gutting or seniority stealing efforts is a junior Comair pilot blackball, well, that's just gravy.

Now, let's see just how green that grass is, assuming we can just steal (and yes, that's what it would be) some Delta 100 seaters:

The 70 seater is 40% bigger than the 50 seater, and for that it pays a whopping premium of 6% to 10%.

Now I realize pay rates at airlines with multipile sizes of A/C aren't always strictly linear, but I'm sure the following projections may be a percent off (either way) but you get the point:

The 90 seater has 28% more seats than the 70. Ergo a whopping 7% pay raise. The 100 Seater has about 40% more seats than the 70, so we're back to a whole 10% raise.

Now don't get me wrong, a raise is always nice, but is 7-10% over what you're making now really enough to justify the illegalization of scope OR the gutting of someone else's contract? Is that truly "what we're worth"? What happened to that whole "parity on scale" talk a couple years ago? Come on, please tell me that you:
1. Voted NO on our current contract thinking we were going to get 150 an hour to fly the 50 seater because that's "what we're worth" but yet:
2. You'll forget all about that if someone throws 7 to 10% your way.

And don't forget those massive pay rates would still be 20% (or more) above what SkyWest, Chatauqua, Mesa and others would lovingly fly a shiny new DCI jet (of ANY size) for, especially if it had some "pimped out avionics," which it probably would.

Nope, this Comair pilot will put voting NO on any 100 seater fantasy pay rate offer almost as high on my to-do list as opting out of the RJDC's windfall seniority grab lawsuit.

Gee Mr. PID information man, I've been at Comair for 10 years but have a class date at Delta in a few months. Should I stay or should I go?

Well that all depends little fella. We're all the same company right now, so ALPA must merge us all. Typically in a merger you get something BETWEEN a staple and DOH, so in that case you'd be better off not going DIRECTLY to Delta, for you'd lose seniority because you went to a "different" Company.

But I thought you just said it was the same company?

Um, yeah, um, go away kid, ya bother me.

 

[embraerjetpilot]

Ok, so next thing you Eagle guys will know, the American Guys will be claiming your stealing their flying, and they will be giving you the finger everywhere you go, be stealing stuff off their airplanes, and be totally unprofessional on the radio to you.. Serves you right..thats how you treat everyone else.

 

[eaglefly]

Interesting discussion. Purely philisophical and frequently misguided.

We as pilots can all bicker back and forth as to what we believe SHOULD be done on principle.

Unfortunately (for this industry and profession) it's too late. Economic reality has and will continue to morph the airline industry and pilot profession based on pure profit as management wants it.

Breath deep and look at the last ten years :

- Introduction of THOUSANDS of RJ's that have gradually replaced more expensive mainline aircraft (not pilots idea but manufacturers responding to managements desire to have the ability to provide air service PROFITABLY).

- Faliure of pilot unions to see this and act to INCLUDE their affiliated pilot groups, instead promoting a "caste" system of have's and have not's by fencing themselves from their affiliated pilot groups.

It didn't work.

Now it's too late.

The horse has not only left the barn, but has hopped the fence and bounded well away from the corral.

As for AA/Eagle :

We at Eagle, went proactive on the RJ issue. We held out an olive branch to Capt. Darrah and the APA, who incidentally have crapped on us since the beginning of American Eagle's inception but in the best interests of BOTH parties we took a chance and did it anyway.

Did they flip us the bird ?

Nope.

They did something even worse.

They represented to us AND THE PUBLIC that our interests were cohesive and parallel. Then, WHILE they were doing that they sharpened the base end of that branch and jammed it in our backs while we were looking the other way.

The APA creatively concoted absurd interpretations of Suppliment W/Letter 3 to allow them to forceably seize ALL future Jet Captains seats at our airline completely outside of clear contractual language.

What did a NEUTRAL arbitrator say about this ?

Exactly what we said - It's bulls&%t and you can't do it.

Now they're trying "plan B" to accomplish close to the same thing.

Who is allowing the APA to take so much line ?

AMR.

Why ?

Because it's in their CURRENT best interest (based SOLELY on economics).

When it comes to 70-90 seat RJ's (which by the way are CURRENTLY operated by regionals such as Air Wisconsin, Mesaba, Comair, Mesa, Eagle and Horizon), ECONOMICS will rule the day.

Will Eagle actually get 90-seaters ?

Look at it from the standpoint of Airline managers who all act surprisingly predictably. The TRUE profit base of the 90-seat RJ lies in the ability to operate it at a regional cost structure. Its performance economcs alone are not enough (for airline managers anyway) to see it as worthwhile when more frequency with 50-seaters will do.

That means pay rates AND WORK RULES that are competetive with initial operators of this equipment.

You can look at what Air Willy and Mesaba are flying their Larger RJ's at, but unfortunately their is one operator who is setting the benchmark for the 90-seater simply because they are there first with the new generation of 90-seaters.

Mesa and "Johnny smooth talk".

The BIGGEST obstacle to 90-seaters at mainline is the P word.

Pension.

Once you throw that into pilot costs you're uncompetitve with the competition. Don't forget mainline F/A's Gate Agents, Mechanics and Rampers.

Eagle may not get 90-seaters, but AA will not see them unless they agree to U's Mid-Atlantic cost structure (minus pilot pensions) AT THE VERY LEAST.

Make no mistake, 90-seaters are coming and they will NOT be operated at mainline cost structures, regardless of all the tantrum throwing by pilots.

We all don't like that idea, but just like the dentist, at this point it is an unavoidable reality.

This Letter from our MEC may not produce any 90-seaters for Eagle, but will give something for management to leverage against mainline if they want them.

We tried our best to work with the APA but after their current behavior and actions we now have no alternative but to compete with them. In fact, historically we've been very passive compared to other regional pilot groups about the RJ issue with mainline pilots we're affiliated with.

We did not design the rule book, the APA did. We understand the "rules" now and have decided to play by them. Our MEC will act in the best interests of it's pilots period. We're not looking to "feed" other carriers but we would like to fly larger A/C that are operated by numerous other regionals already and do so independant of AA.

Our CBA requires that should a new A/C be acquired that the parties would meet to negotiate a pay rate and if not successful than an arbitrator would decide. Based on current rates we would be looking at $7-10/hr. above current 70-seat rates for captains, perhaps $5/hr. for F/O's.

The average captain would be about $95-100/hr. depending on seniority, ($93,600/yr. @ 80 hrs./month). The average F/O would be about $40/hr. ($38,400/yr. @ 80 hrs./month). Rough estimates only, but are in the reasonable ball park of some current LCC's. With extra flying and perdiem most Captains will be over $100K/yr. and F/O's in the mid-upper $40K range. Yes, nowhere near mainline but mainline will not see any aircraft under 100 seats.

I'm curious to see why no one is villianizing Frontier for flying 737's at their rates ? I'll bet most regional pilots (F/O's especially) and mainline furloughees would happily go to 737 class at Frontier.

Anyway, as a side note, several sources say an Eagle spinoff is likely in the near future. Depending on how this would be completed, the primary focus of Eagle would still be to serve AMR under existing limits. But new oppotunites to support an infrastructure as a stand alone low cost carrier to compete with LCC's would be possible and with Eagle's labor stability (the F/A's being an exeption in the near future) and cost structure, it is a highly desirable possibilty from an airline management economic and competetive standpoint.

The idustry has changed a lot in the last 10 years AND WILL CONTINUE to change to an even greater degree in the next ten - and not for the better when it comes to pilot pay and benefits.

ALPA national squandered the opportunity to build a unified and cohesive pilot group when they miscalculated the impact of the RJ ten years ago (The Delta situation shows the desperation to cling to a losing philosophy).

The APA squndered it's opportunity at AMR to do the same thing just a few short months ago (especially bad, whan they had all that history to learn from).

It's way too late now to stop what is happening now.

What will happen, will happen.

- Canada, your statements about the problems of the flow-thru are not the real problem. That agreement is a perfect example of what happens when ambiguaous language is accepted by pilot groups - Management will exploit it one way when it needs it and another way when it doesn't.

 

[General Lee]

Eaglefly,

Our EX-CEO Ron Allen apparently said the same thing in 1992--"The industry has changed forever." It got a lot better 4 years later. We really don't know what will happen---and it will be interesting to watch---no doubt.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[surplus1]

Eaglefly,

Nice post. I'm happy to see that in all the emotional BS that followed my comments (which I fully expected), you have not lost the big picture.

A Pandora's Box has been opened by ALPA first and the APA second, i.e., mainline pilots. The consequences are now coming home to roost on the properties of the originators of predatory policy, predatory scope and predatory bargaining, and they don't like it. It is of their own making but they will not acknowledge that ever and, as you point out, it may be too late already for management has recognized and adopted thier own cut throat methods and are using them against us all.

It happens that I personally actually believe that the EMB-190 or similar size aircraft have traditionally been "mainline" equipment and should continue to be. I have stated that before in these forums. However, and this is critical, I also believe that aircraft with less than 100 seats should be operated by the non-mainline carriers.

Mainline pilots like the General and his peers rush to the defense of the mainline (as expected) as soon as someone (in this case the EGL MEC) suggests that an EMB190 could be operated more profitably at Eagle than it could at American (which is factual). They feel threatened by that prospect and will advance any idea, no matter how absurd, in an effort to prevent it.

What is ironic is that these very same pilots have no problem with efforts by AA to remove the CRJ-700 from the Eagle pilots. They have no problem with the efforts of AA to replace ALL jet Captain positions at Eagle with furloughed junior pilots from AA. They have no problem with the fact that the AA pilots' contract includes a provision that allows the APA to take ALL the 70-seaters from Eagle by underbidding the Eagle cost structure, and they will still keep the other 50-seat (or less) Captain positions that they can take from Eagle pilots.

They have no problem with pilots from AAA creating super seniority for themselves and demanding 50% of the Captain seats at PSA, ALG, PDT, Mesa, TSA, Midway and CHQ (in 50-seat equipment). They have no problem with furloughed AAA pilots being paid more than senior (to them) FO's at those same airlines. They have no problem with the creation of Mid Atlantic __ for the specific purpose of excluding pilots from PSA, ALG and PDT from the 70-seat aircraft that might be operated by USAir Group.

Over at Delta they have no problem with efforts by their MEC to prevent Comair and ASA from operating ANY CRJ-700's. When that effort failed (thanks to the Company), they had no problem with limiting the CRJ-700 to a total of 57. Further, they had no problem with making the 57 distributed among ALL DCI operators (instead of CMR/ASA who ordered the aircraft), thus providing the Company with the opportunity to play the DCI carriers against each other.

They have no probem with openly advocating that the CRJ-700 should be flown at the mainline. They have implied and openly stated, that it would be "cheaper" because their pilots are more junior than the CMR/ASA pilots that now fly those aircraft, and therefore, they would be at the bottom of the CMR pay scale and fly for less than current senior CMR/ASA pilots. In other words, a backdoor method to undercut and underbid the ASA/CMR pilots currently flying those aircraft.

They have no problem with repeatedly stating that those 70-seat jets should be flown by their furloughed pilots, instead of the currently employed pilots that now fly them at CMR/ASA.

They are currently implying and trying, if you read the General's statements, that

Delta could easily choose more 70 seaters to "right size the markets", as long as they put some Delta furloughs in them-----and they know that. Hey, Dalpa would probably agree to your payscales too----and that wouldn't be undercutting you, would it???? Let's do it now---let's agree to our furloughs getting all of the new 70 seaters---

thus transferring the promotion opportunities of CMR/ASA pilots to the CRJ-700 to Delta pilots. Give that flying to their furloughed pilots __ little different from what AA is trying to do at Eagle and what AAA has done over there. Delta's version of "jets for jobs". This is not the first time that such statements have been made and the General is not the only one making them. If I were a fly on the wall of the Delta MEC, I would undoubtedly hear the same offer being made to Delta management behind closed doors.

There is no doubt whatever in my mind that the Delta pilots would do to Comair and ASA exactly what the AA pilots are doing to Eagle, if they could only get Delta management to agree to it. They would happily place all 1000 of thier furloughed pilots into the Captain seats at CMR and ASA without a second thought. How many CMR/ASA pilots might be displaced is of no concern to them, just as it is of no concern to AA pilots displacing Eagle Captains.

They have a right to feel threatened if you suggest that you might fly the EMB-190. We have no right to feel threatened when they actively take the CRJ-700 or displace all RJ Captains. WE regional pilots should accept that they are in control and whatever they decide to do must be accepted in silence. GARBAGE!

Their intent is clear and the only one's fooled by their rhetoric are the young and naive among us. In exchange for taking what is ours they offer the possibility that we just might be hired by them at some unknown time in the unknown future. A possibility that exists anyway, regardless of what they do.

Even more interesting is the fact that the labor union that allegedly represents Comair and ASA pilots would not lift a finger to prevent that. On the contrary ALPA would support it. Just as it has openly done at USAirways and, I believe, may be clandestinely doing at Eagle in support of the APA. That "union" and its President would sell out the CMR/ASA pilots in favor of the Delta pilots without batting an eye. There is only ONE thing preventing that at this time and we know what that is: A lawsuit filed by CMR and ASA pilots against the union.

The President of ALPA has repeatedly stated, in public, that regional pilots should not fly aircraft larger than 50-seats. Even that is a scam, given the fact that his own airline (NWA) has contract language that limits Mesaba and PCL jets to less than 50 seats.

When the union could not prevent some regionals from exceeding the 50-seat limit, it found other ways to populate the cockpits of the larger RJs with mainline pilots. If they (the mainline pilots) could not fly these 70-90 seat aircraft in their own airlines, then by God they would fly them in our airlines and if necessary, displace as many of us as they could. ALPA has done and is doing everything in its power to keep regional pilots from operating aircraft with more than 50-seats, even though ALPA allegedly represents the interests of those regional pilots. Only the blind can fail to see that. It is not my imagination, it is happening before our very eyes.

Meanwhile the snake oil merchants in Washington continue to smooth talk and pull the wool over the eyes of as many naive regional pilots as they can. Let us not forget that every last one of those snake oil merchants just happens to be a "mainline" pilot. The recent "performance" of the ALPA President before Comair pilots, speaks for itself. No doubt he believes that CMR pilots "swallowed" his BS, but I think he was wrong. He should have known that if you don't suck to begin with, then it follows you don't swallow either. We do have some "suckers" at CMR, but thank God its a dam*ed small minority.

Given all of that, which is not my opinion but recorded history and publicly uttered facts, the "mainliners" are up in arms at the mere suggestion that a regional pilot group, protecting the interests of its own pilots, would have the nerve to counter their efforts to take from the regionals what they already have with a duplicate effort that, no matter how remote, might take from them what they do not now have.

How dare us be bold enough to suggest that we might return a dose of their own medicine! Surely we are the scum of the earth if we do not allow them to take whatever they might want of whatever we may have and remain silent. There is no name nasty enough to call those of us who resist them or dare to challenge their predatory behavior with some of our own.

It is sad indeed that we have come to this but it should be remembered that the attacks were launched by organized mainline pilots against organized regional pilots, and notwithstanding that the "organization", ALPA, represents both, it has done nothing to protect the interest and welfare of the "reginal minority" from the mainline predators.

When attacked, the right to self-defense is well established. If they do not stop their continued attacks I'm afraid we are in for one he!! of a war. It will not be good for any of us, but it is still better than throwing in the towel and just letting them do with us whatever they please. It is better to go down fighting for what is ours, than to cower in a corner and permit ourselves to be abused.

The bottom line is these mainline folks (not all, but those that shower us with rhetoric of our wrong doing) are hypocrites. They live by a double standard. One that allows them to do as they please, but condems us for copying their own behavior in our own defense. Everything is "right" and in the interest of "the profession" when they do it. The same thing is wrong and will destroy the profession if we do it. Hypocracy at its finest.

It is time they realize that what is "sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander". You reap what you sow. Either they back off or they will get in return exacly what they give. Should that happen, it will be their just deserts.

 

[NYRANGERS]

Eaglefly,

Further, they had no problem with making the 57 distributed among ALL DCI operators (instead of CMR/ASA who ordered the aircraft), thus providing the Company with the opportunity to play the DCI carriers against each other.

There is a giant amount of BS in your post. The above paragraph takes the cake.

Such a victim.

 

[Slave2theGrind]

Eaglefly, great post.


Just sAAy no to the flow

 

[surplus1]

There is a giant amount of BS in your post. The above paragraph takes the cake.

Such a victim.

Ok, since it is BS I'll change it.

Further, they had no problem with making the 57 distributed among ALL DCI operators (instead of CMR/ASA who ordered the aircraft), thus providing the Company with greater opportunity to play the DCI carriers against each other.

There you go. Is that more to your liking?

If there is anything else you would like to counter with information the refutes what I said (with facts to the contrary), by all means feel free to do so.

I think what really annoys you is not that I am "such a victim", but that I will not willingly allow myself or my group to become the unwitting victims. For that I make no apologies.

 

[canadflyau]

Further, they had no problem with making the 100 seaters distributed among "regional" operators (instead of mainline who ordered the aircraft), thus providing the managements with greater opportunity to play all the pilot groups against each other.

 

[General Lee]

When it comes down to it Surplus, those new 100 seaters will replace mainline 100 seaters (107 seat 737-200s). It is common sense that Dalpa would want those replaced pilots to fly the new planes. This is not rocket science. As far as the new 70 seaters---we have a glut of pilots that could easily fill those new seats. Delta knows this and also knows that they could have many more 70 seaters if they would help us with that problem. That wouldn't be taking any planes away from you, but stunting your growth obviously.(We have experienced the same over the last 2 years---actually gone backwards...) So here it is again for you:

1. The new planes(100 seater) would be replacing OUR current ones
2. We have many pilots on the street wanting to fly them


The rates would not necessarily be high---as long as it is a new type of aircraft, it would have to go through new negotiations that would compare the rates to other airlines with the same plane. That would mean that the rates would be competitive. If you want to try to get them yourselves, and keep our guys out on the street, then expect some opposition.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Wacopilot]

If you want to try to get them yourselves, and keep our guys out on the street, then expect some opposition.

Please don't loose focus General, it is not the intent of anyone to "keep your guys out on the street". We are just covering out interest....it's not a war, there is to be no fighting. You do what you need to do for your interest and we will do the same. It is strictly business. Your scope to me is strictly business, it is my job to try and help my interest by finding ways to get around your scope however that may be. Just please remember it is not my goal to keep your guys out on the street. I have family that are furloughed DL. I only wish the rest of your pilot group was as concerned for your 1090 as you are.

Waco

 

[General Lee]

Waco,

I know, it just seems that I know a lot of them personally---and it is painful to talk to them---so we just silently play golf--my treat. When you say you are "covering your interests"---those could affect a lot of people. I know you want to expand as well and attain a better quality of life, but so do we and the 1060 that will remain on the street longer. If something is worked out eventually between Dalpa and management, i have no doubt that they will get some more of those "self financing" CR7s, and if there are some 100 seaters in our future, then there will be some 70 seaters in yours probably. Dalpa is fighting for it's current fleet size, and any addition would help us. We shall see who gets what eventually, but don't think Dalpa will roll over, and they really have the upper hand. Take it easy.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[NYRANGERS]

We are just covering out interest....it's not a war, is strictly business, it is my job to try and help my interest by finding ways to get around your scope however that may be. Just please remember it is not my goal to keep your guys out on the street. I have family that are furloughed DL. I only wish the rest of your pilot group was as concerned for your 1090 as you are.

Waco

Not a war? I can't think of any words that could unite the Delta pilots for "war" against your group, than the ones you mentioned above.

If you are seeking our jobs (for much less pay, mind you), then expect a war that may find us with much less than we have, but in a world that your group doesn't exist.

NYR

Preparing for WAR

 

[Wacopilot]

If you are seeking our jobs (for much less pay, mind you), then expect a war that may find us with much less than we have, but in a world that your group doesn't exist.

NYRANGERS,

I don't want your job, I want my job. You are too busy blaming someone else for your problems.Your beef is with Delta Mgmt, not me. If you were a CMR pilot I bet my next paycheck (not that much money )that you would support the DCI interest, and if I were a DL pilot, I would support scope. It sucks that you are furloughed but that's not my fault. Do you not think that scope is business?? You my friend need to look at the big picture. Don't be so quick to jump the emotional gun. I know, i know, I have a job and don't understand....I am furloughed US but I went out and found another job and now I want to protect it. I am not against you, I am just for my interest. That is not wrong. I only expect you to be the same way.

Regards.

Waco

 

[eaglefly]

Remember folks, there's ONE rule of business.

ANY business (and whether we acknowledge it, the airline industry IS a business).

Economics rule.

Sooner or later.

When it comes to profitably operating aircraft up to 90 seats as far as pilots are concerned :

Regional work rules (including NO pension).

Cry, scream, bludgeon the family cat or whatever.

If mainline wants them, thats what it will take.

For those of you believing that they should be at mainline to "raise the bar" or "defend the profession", you'll be flying them with callouses on your left hand (from the gear handle) and regional pay, working conditions and NO pension.

So to make a long story short, they may in fact be at mainline but no one will ever tell.

It will really be regional K-scale for all you new hires.

Welcome to the future of the airline industry.

Arpey, Bethune and the rest of them know it. Dumb pilots are always the last to see it.

Thats the future, accept it or not.

 

[canadflyau]

For those of you believing that they should be at mainline to "raise the bar" or "defend the profession", you'll be flying them with callouses on your left hand (from the gear handle) and regional pay, working conditions and NO pension.

Can I borrow your crystal ball..

 

[Flyingtoohigh]

If Delta has 1000 on the streets they will fight tooth and nail to keep another hundred or more employed and fly either 100-seat EMB-190's or 107-seat 737-200's.

Comair, ASA, and other regional captains are equally afraid of J4J programs. Yay, Delta pilots are back in the cockpit, albeit after kicking a CMR pilot to the street.

The question boils down to, "Who pays more dues to ALPA?" combined with, "Who makes up ALPA leadership, 'mainline' or 'regional' pilots?" The answers to those questions will dictate the contracts since ALPA is the one doing the talking for both 'regional' and 'mainline' pilots, correct?

As for the actual outcome, economics will play the deciding factor. Who flies the 100-seaters cheaper?

This is my informed opinion after reading this thread. Yes, I'm still a CFI. No, I have not applied to fly for Comair. No, I don't know anybody at Comair or Delta. No, I don't pay dues to ALPA. What a difference a little objectivity makes. Flame away.

 

[Slave2theGrind]

Its all about the almighty dollar, and how much management can get for that dollar.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Surplus1,

I can understand that you may want to fly a larger airplane to gain extra pay, but those planes do belong on mainline since they would be replacing mainline aircraft.
Bye Bye--General Lee

What about your MD88's that have replaced RJ's and ATR's in some cities? Using your logic, when is my class date?

When will you realize your MEC has hijacked our union and taken it to the wrong destination. The industry is losing altitude - time for a little CRM - let the other pilots in the airplane particpate in fixing the problem TOGETHER.

 

[180ToTheMarker]

Wanting your airline to grow is okay...but it should grow within the context of what is was designed to do (feed mainline). On the side of our pretty little RJs in bold letters reads DELTA CONNECTION. Getting 100 seat airplanes at ASA or CMR would essentially allow DAL to replace the 737-200's with a similar size plane flown by lower paid pilots. No matter how you slice it, thats undercutting the pilot group of our parent company. Thats exactly what Lorenzo and his cronies did years ago only now it is us who are offering to do it for them.

Weren't you pissed when Skywest offered to fly 700s for 200 pay? This is the same thing...think about it.