Larger aircraft for Eagle?

[GogglesPisano]

Doesn't the APA have a scope clause? All they have to say is no friggin' way. The Eagle MEC should be ashamed. "Please let us fly bigger airplanes! We'll do it for cheap. Please?" Pathetic!!!


I am an RJ Driver and a strong believer in SCOPE!

 

[FightTheFuture]

Unashamed

Doesn't the APA have a scope clause? All they have to say is no friggin' way. The Eagle MEC should be ashamed. "Please let us fly bigger airplanes! We'll do it for cheap. Please?" Pathetic!!!


I am an RJ Driver and a strong believer in SCOPE!

With regard to the scope clause, one opinion is that AMRon threatened to go after AA pensions if the airline went into bankruptcy. APA agreed to "scope relief" and some $660 million in concessions.

Part of those concessions involved giving all future
jet vacancies to AA pilots. There was a 4 party agreement between AE,AA, and both management groups that set rules for all flowthrough and flowback procedures. This year APA decided that contract was not in their best interest anymore.

Now think of this, our fleet count shrunk as we retired turboprops. There are a lot of former prop Captains in the right seat earning Eagle FO wages. The way APA intended it they would never upgrade. And don't forget the rest of us FO's with 4-5 years of seniority and not one hope of upgrade.

All of this is after APA joined in a "Unity" campaign last fall with Eagle Alpa with an intention to create a combined front against AMRon management.

Our MEC spent the better part of this year just trying to get Eagle management and APA to honor our contract. And after an arbitrator ruled for the Eagle pilots in 4 recent grievances the company and APA have stated that they don't need that arbitrators services anymore and will continue to pursue pilot positions at Eagle irrespective of our current contract.

With the past year in perspective I'm glad the Eagle MEC is making the AAer's sweat. I don't think we'll get the new equipment but at least AMRon will use our offer to squeeze even more concessions out of APA. Call it karma for screwing with Eagle.

 

[General Lee]

Yes. We carry a lot more passengers and eventually the RJs will be out grown and 100 seaters will be necessary to compete with Jetblue's low fares---and mainline will expand then. Dalpa will NEVER EVER give up the 100 seaters.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Wacopilot]

Gen,

According to the Cincinnati Enquirer, Comair is beating jetblue... We posted a bigger profit at Comair last qtr than jetblue did. Looks like CMR is the Delta answer to competing with Jetwho?

Interesting stuff....

Waco

 

[canadflyau]

There was a 4 party agreement between AE,AA, and both management groups that set rules for all flowthrough and flowback procedures. This year APA decided that contract was not in their best interest anymore

Please explain.. What was the original flowback deal? and what is currently happening?

I'm glad the Eagle MEC is making the AAer's sweat. I don't think we'll get the new equipment but at least AMRon will use our offer to squeeze even more concessions out of APA. Call it karma for screwing with Eagle.

and you call yourself "FightTheFuture"? That statement is just plain immature..

 

[resistance]

Will someone please wake up the rarely seen "Sky-Marshalls" from the back because this thread has been hijacked again by D-ALPA.

As far as this one-list b-s can I please put my two-cents in...

I look at it as the Mainline carriers don't want me (United, Delta, Northwest...) so screw them! I've tried numberous times during the good years to get into the party but the all don't want to open the door. (I guess I am too civilian for them all??) So I am trying to build a company that will eventually get me higher pay with bigger planes. If that means taking over mainline routes then so be it! I have no issues about it at all. Go talk to your respected management CEO's they are the one's selling your job, your pension, your future down the river to me. I was on the "one-list" band wagon here at Eagle for many years only to get a swift kick in the balls from APA so my direction is 180 degrees. I welcome a sale of the company and vast growth here at the expense of APA pilots.

Remember APA guys you had your chance to unify the group back in 97' but your "defending the profession" got in the way.

Scope is dead....and your pension is next! Sweet Dreams

 

[WyoHerkdriver]

Just because you did not have what it takes to get on with a major airline makes it ok to try to steal mainline jobs from AA? What kind of reasoning is that? It is obvious that you are just bitter about not being "good enough" to move on from Eagle. First, the greedy Eagle pukes show their willingness to fly the 100 seat regional jets for AA and the next thing you know they will be offering to fly the 777 for a third of what the mainline guys earn. What a pathetic attempt to steal from others.
I have beeen furloughed from AA for a year and a half now, and if I never get recalled, at least I can say I fulfilled my dream by flying for a major airline. Thanks to the greedy actions of the Eagle MEC, I may never fly again at AA. If those backstabbers have their way, they will be flying aircraft that clearly should be flown by mainline pilots. I hope you will be able to sleep at night if these actions come to fruition and furloughed AA guys like myself never get recalled. Enjoy your careeer at Eagle as you will never wind up at AA (hopefully).

 

[Beerme]

__________________________________________________[/B][/QUOTE]I look at it as the Mainline carriers don't want me (United, Delta, Northwest...) so screw them! I've tried numberous times during the good years to get into the party but the all don't want to open the door. (I guess I am too civilian for them all??)

If that means taking over mainline routes then so be it! I have no issues about it at all.

Scope is dead....and your pension is next! Sweet Dreams [/B][/QUOTE]
____________________________________________________

Your pretty **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**in' pathetic. I see you now have 5500hrs...what did you have 9-11-01? Probably around 3500hr. I got news for ya buddy...that wasn't competitive prior to that date. It's not that the major carriers didn't want you, there were just too many BETTER QUALIFIED candidates you were competing against. Plain and simple. The majors are like the military, you either make the grade or not. At the time, you couldn't. So now, you want to piss all over everyone else and become a big WHORE! I got news for you...with that kind of attitude, you never had the character to play with the big boys.

Good riddance!

 

[Slave2theGrind]

Enjoy your careeer at Eagle as you will never wind up at AA (hopefully).

Believe me that most, including me, do not want to fly for AA.

If those backstabbers have their way,

Are you refering to the APA and their "Unity Bull Sh!t"

I hope you will be able to sleep at night if these actions come to fruition and furloughed AA guys like myself never get recalled.

How about all the 5+ year Eagle FO's that will never upgrade due to APA and AE management implementing their own flowback agreement

Go cry somewhere else

 

[superatr]

Everyone missed the point of the letter.

The intent was to start a dialogue that will challenge Ealge managment and AMR managment to seek growth opportunities in the only segment of the aviation industry that has growth potential.

Regional Jets in the 70 - 100 seat range is where the growth will be.

Both pilot unions can benefit if AMR managment will take the time to engage both pilot unions and allow aircraft in these seat ranges to be flown unrestricted by which-ever pilot group can do so in the most cost efficient manner.

The purpose of the letter was only to start the dialouge in order to be ready with a plan should managment decide to get into the game and once again become an industry leader and not react after other carriers have gained an advantage.

 

[WyoHerkdriver]

It is pretty obvious what the point of the letter is. Eagle pilots want to steal mainline AA flying. Isn't the intent of the letter pretty clear? Seriously, why don't the Eagle guys go for it all and put it a bid in to fly the 777 for AA at "slave wages". What a lame and pathetic attempt by those at Eagle. I hope you are proud of your MEC.

 

[canadflyau]

I call BS

I see you now have 5500hrs...what did you have 9-11-01? Probably around 3500hr. I got news for ya buddy...that wasn't competitive prior to that date. It's not that the major carriers didn't want you, there were just too many BETTER QUALIFIED candidates y

Not only that.... but would you have even had 1000hrs of PIC at a 121 or 135 carrier by 9/11????


Why won't anyone please explain statements like this...

How about all the 5+ year Eagle FO's that will never upgrade due to APA and AE management implementing their own flowback agreement

screw the mudslinging I want to know how it was amended. What was it before, what is it now, and if so how can it be totally disregarded?

if AMR managment will take the time to engage both pilot unions and allow aircraft in these seat ranges to be flown unrestricted by which-ever pilot group can do so in the most cost efficient manner.

Is that really what you want??? You would be opening a can of worms that would end up taking what professionalism is left at your present job... Pic up aviation weekly... there are thousand of people who reponded to an article saying they would be willing to fly a 767 for the rest of their life for pennies on our dollar.

I just can't belive what I am reading... If 100 seat jets find there way out of mainline I will be considering other career options.

 

[FightTheFuture]

It is pretty obvious what the point of the letter is. Eagle pilots want to steal mainline AA flying. Isn't the intent of the letter pretty clear? Seriously, why don't the Eagle guys go for it all and put it a bid in to fly the 777 for AA at "slave wages". What a lame and pathetic attempt by those at Eagle. I hope you are proud of your MEC.

Steal mainline flying? Nobody seems to care that APA is taking Eagle CA vacancies and keeping their doh date for pay and vacation bidding purposes when they come over despite our contract. APA had another ad campaign last year just before the "Unity Campaign" extolling the virtues of bringing all RJs over to the AA certificate with no hint at where current Eagle pilots would go. I think the theme went something like "AA pilots flying AA Regional Jets...its a win win situation." I don't remember any outcries about stealing our jobs.

Our MEC had to fight just to protect our contract language this year with respect to APA stealing all future AE vacancies. An arbitrator ruled in favor of the Eagle pilot group but guess what?
APA and AE management said oh well we are going to give AA pilots the vacancies anyway.

Yeah we make slave wages and work for a company that follows and implements our contract only when it is practical or economically feasible for them. Our MEC is trying to improve job opportunities for Eagle pilots so I am very proud of them.

First, the greedy Eagle pukes show their willingness to fly the 100 seat regional jets for AA and the next thing you know they will be offering to fly the 777 for a third of what the mainline guys earn. What a pathetic attempt to steal from others.
I have beeen furloughed from AA for a year and a half now, and if I never get recalled, at least I can say I fulfilled my dream by flying for a major airline. Thanks to the greedy actions of the Eagle MEC, I may never fly again at AA. If those backstabbers have their way, they will be flying aircraft that clearly should be flown by mainline pilots. I hope you will be able to sleep at night if these actions come to fruition and furloughed AA guys like myself never get recalled. Enjoy your careeer at Eagle as you will never wind up at AA (hopefully).

WyoHerkdriver I am sorry you were furloughed really I am. Eagle furloughed too. However, nothing that the Eagle MEC has done has contributed to you being furloughed. If you were on our property you would know that our MEC has had it's hands full just trying to get the company to honor our contract. Actually our MEC offered 1 out of 3 Eagle jet vacancies to AA in exchange for an improved flowthrough agreement. APA rejected it completely. Heck, before 9.11 there many Eagle pilots would have accepted a staple to the bottom of the AA senority list if it ment for a better future. And with regard to Eagle pilots being greedy, I have worked here for 4 years and I'll make 35k this year, we don't get retirement and no profit sharing even though Eagle is doing so well.

 

[FightTheFuture]

Please explain.. What was the original flowback deal? and what is currently happening?




and you call yourself "FightTheFuture"? That statement is just plain immature..

canadflyau for some back ground look at these links.

http://www.alpa.org/alpa/DesktopModules/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=4527

http://www.theadvertiser.com/business/html/675EB1ED-5099-4A4F-A773-0C3B02D729D5.shtml


And the username FightTheFuture is an X-files reference, what did you think it meant?

 

[outtolunch]

WyoHerkdriver,

If AA is to fly the 90 seater, at what rates do you think you will get? You won't be paid "top dollar" to fly these things. You may think you will but you won't. Just because it is aa and the apa, you won't see as much as you are thinking. Look at the industry average for an aircraft of this type.....you've got CHQ with negotiated rates, as well as Mesa. Northwest has their DC-9's but the EMB's aren't in the same class. 2X2 seating, the pax are still going to look at it as a small jet and I think the pilots and fa's would gasp when they actually got on and saw the thing....we actually have to fly this thing?!?!

You can thank your MEC for the bad blood from the eagle pilots. Your MEC went behind eagle pilots backs and tried to get all new capt. seats at eagle from incremental growth for the aa furloughed guys. If eagle got 100 new jets.....all capt seats would've gone to aa furloughs. We already had an agreement (letter 3/ supp. w) and you and your MEC tried to get around it in closed meetings with the company. You want to take our seats but won't let us in on the negotiations....who's the backstabber? You think that same company won't work around your agreements?

 

[FightTheFuture]

Re: I call BS

Not only that.... but would you have even had 1000hrs of PIC at a 121 or 135 carrier by 9/11????

Who wanted 1000 pic? At a 135 carrier? I know people at UAL and AA without 1000 pic.

Why won't anyone please explain statements like this...
screw the mudslinging I want to know how it was amended. What was it before, what is it now, and if so how can it be totally disregarded?

According to Letter 3 which is the portion of the Eagle contract dealing with flowthrough/flowback AA pilot where entitled to a limited number of Eagle Jet CA positions to be filled by displacement. The AA pilots who elected to make use of their right to flowback would displace Eagle captains who agreed at the time of completion of their IOE on the RJ chose themselves to flowthrough to AA. The number of displacements that would have been possible I think was somewhere in the neighborhood of 450(If I'm in error someone please correct me).

The problem is that APA wanted all future Eagle vacancies. As new jets arrive on property to replace turbo-props and for growth all CA postions would go to AA pilots. Essentially, if you were a Captain at Eagle on a turbo-prop who was displace because of the ASM cap to jet FO or you were currently an FO from doh you would never upgrade. If you can't earn jet pic or increase your income the future becomes very bleak.

With regard to the contract being disregarded AE frequently violates contract items if the situation suits them. It is truely frustrating.

Is that really what you want??? You would be opening a can of worms that would end up taking what professionalism is left at your present job... Pic up aviation weekly... there are thousand of people who reponded to an article saying they would be willing to fly a 767 for the rest of their life for pennies on our dollar.

I just can't belive what I am reading... If 100 seat jets find there way out of mainline I will be considering other career options.

I think what our pilot group really wanted in the past was one list that would ensure a career path for Eagle pilots. In addition a fusion of the list would grant APA more power as a single pilot group would be in control of all flying under the AMR unbrella instead of the current 4. At a time APA recognized the benefits and wanted it to but there was a leadership change in the 90's and the new leaders felt differently. Eagle has a long and troubled history of pilot groups being pitted against and used against each other. Everytime Eagle pilots make attempts to unify our efforts seemed to be nullified.

With regard to the aviation weekly(is this aviation week by Mcgraw-Hill?,if so which month/week?) Everytime I go back and visit the flight instructors at my old university they are in awe of a 121 jet driver(despite my attempts to dissuade them ) and tell me they would glady fly for low wages to be in a jet.

 

[canadflyau]

Who wanted 1000 pic? At a 135 carrier? I know people at UAL and AA without 1000 pic.

I still call BS on that guy... 1000 pic in the 121or135 envrionment as a min is commonplace at the majors unless you had an inside track like a internship or dating the CP's daughter.
-----------------------------------------------------
Ok, more questions about the revised flowthough...

The AA pilots who elected to make use of their right to flowback would displace Eagle captains who agreed at the time of completion of their IOE on the RJ chose themselves to flowthrough to AA. The number of displacements that would have been possible I

So in its original context it was a one way street... they could only flowback as many as had flowed through... Wouldn't that mean that basically the pilots flowing back were Eagle pilots that flowed through and whoever else comprised the bottom 450 pilots who accepted to flowback instead of furlough? How many have flowed back?

Is letter 3 an original part of the flowthrough agreement? or was it added after?

The ASM cap is part of AA's scope.. So Eagle pilots just plain object to it b/c the APA said we will provide scope relief so Eagle can operate jets beyond the ASM cap but the Capt positions created go to AA furloughees. Do I have that right?

a fusion of the list would grant APA more power as a single pilot group would be in control of all flying under the AMR unbrella

I couldn't agree with you more.. If you guys voted in the APA and out with ALPA do you think you could end the whipsaw and create a whole paradigm of problems even if the APA's true intent for Eagle pilots wasn't honerable...? That would be a big step toward one list in my opinion.

I thought "FightTheFuture" was a battlecry to save our profession.

Overall I understand the plight and frustration the Eagle pilots feel, it is actually very close to home to me. However low morale is cancer. When it seems the condition is terminal, doing something just to be malicious can provide a temporary relief.. I endured it at a USA whollyowned. What I see is the race to the bottom and it frightens me. "Pure economics" as posters keep saying will be written on this professions tombstones as pilot groups angle themselves to be the next group to be the most economically attractive in the Corps eyes. This condition makes it easy for a Richy Branson to swoop into the states and lure folks into cockpits with your wages at Eagle but with no Medical Plans.. Then Lorenzo reincarnates and shows that he has the same pilot group as Branson but with no perdiem. Then Ornstein rallies the troops after he scares them into survival mode and says the only way we survive is Eagle minus 20% pay, no bennies, no per-diem, FAA minimum work rules and no paid vacations.. and hundreds sign up... it may hurt in the shorterm but our elders at these mainlines are trying to preserve the profession with scopes to keep mangements from doing this.. Meanwhile here we go dragging ourselves into court where they rule that Scopes are illegal.. and what have we done.. we have cut off the nose to spite our face.. and months later we see big bad Eagle (now being played by APA) up against some small and up and coming who is touting to AMR that they can do the same job as you guys for less.. and they mail off a letter stating this to your management. AMR likes what they see and says "lets get in bed" b/c since the pilots in their bickering have ruined scopes there is nothing that prevent them from using the new guys. and down and down and on it goes..

Lets don't let folks feel like they are ruining where we are right now but get onboard with fixing this giant C-scale!! SWA pilots aren't giving it away, and lucky for them they don't have an alter ego trying to dumb them down, yet they are successful! operating in the Low cost environment with only 737s... BUT HOW??? Maybe if AMR spent less time keeping you succesfully at eachothers throat some real progress would get made at the carrier that spends the most money in its operation that is not directly related to the revenue stream.. and they became #1 b/c United is getting streamlined by Uncle Sam..

Sorry for the diatribe, just hate seeing us be our own worst enemy.

 

[FightTheFuture]

I still call BS on that guy... 1000 pic in the 121or135 envrionment as a min is commonplace at the majors unless you had an inside track like a internship or dating the CP's daughter

I'm sure that prior to 9/11 there were many new hires at mainline carriers who had 1000 121 pic but there were a great deal who did not. I interned at a training center for a major airline and the VP of Training and the hiring department fed us info on outside versus inside quals. 1000 121 pic was not a minimum req. My best friend since the 4th grade, some 22 years now, might have had 400 hours pic from instructing SEL. He went the military route and then got hired at US Airways in 97 with the pratically the same pic and shy of 2200 hours total. I know of others from my college that had less than 1000 pic total(not even turbine) who were successful. When mainlines do start hiring again though there will be a plethora of pilots at REALs other that Eagle with loads of the pic you speak of, and as such mins may rise.

Ok, more questions about the revised flowthough... So in its original context it was a one way street... they could only flowback as many as had flowed through... Wouldn't that mean that basically the pilots flowing back were Eagle pilots that flowed through and whoever else comprised the bottom 450 pilots who accepted to flowback instead of furlough? How many have flowed back?

I'm not sure what you mean by one way street
To answer part of that question though, as an Eagle Captain on the ERJ (which was running at around 11 years min senority around September of 2000 when I was in jet initial) you can flow after you 1. Complete IOE on the ERJ 2. Sign a document indicating that you want to excercise your entitlement to flow under the provisions of the contract. and 3rd complete a 2 year lockin on the ERJ.

Now when that 13 year Eagle Captain finally flows to AA they will have two years of seniority for bidding purposes only, they start as an FO on first year AA pay. So Eagle pilots who flowed through had x number of AA new hire pilots underneath them already when they crossed the fence in addition to a large number of TWA pilots.

Now that 2nd requirement is the subject of a grievance on behalf of our MEC. Basically if you elect to flow to AA you also make yourself subject to displacement in the event of economic downturn and AA furloughs. There is absolutely no argument from Eagle pilots about that point. Now, if you completed IOE on the ERJ and elected not to flow because the the age 50 rule, quality of life concerns, ect. you can choose to become an Eagle Rights Captain. The intent of the contract with regard to Eagle Rights Captains is that they cannot be displaced by AA furloughs.
But low and behold they are being displaced anyway.

To date there aren't a large number of flowbacks on the property. Reasons range from the significant pay cut, AA pilots not meeting Eagles 3000 hour flight time requirement for Captain positions, lack of any prior 121 experience(i.e. military, many went back into the reserves), and maybe also just a dislike of the lifestyle. I've flown with a couple and see them in the crew room.
I'll try to find a number for you though.

Is letter 3 an original part of the flowthrough agreement? or was it added after?

Letter 3 was the original agreement.

The ASM cap is part of AA's scope.. So Eagle pilots just plain object to it b/c the APA said we will provide scope relief so Eagle can operate jets beyond the ASM cap but the Capt positions created go to AA furloughees. Do I have that right?

Yes

I couldn't agree with you more.. If you guys voted in the APA and out with ALPA do you think you could end the whipsaw and create a whole paradigm of problems even if the APA's true intent for Eagle pilots wasn't honerable...? That would be a big step toward one list in my opinion.

That's an excellent question but honestly I'm not sure where to start with an answer for you. At one time part of Eagle was represented by APA, in addition at one time the AA side of APA saw benifits in controlling AMR flying by some sort of merge. Thats all changed. I think, no I know that there were mainline guys that wanted to merge prior to 9/11. AMR had Eagle, Executive, Trans States Airlines , and Chautauqua and adding jets. I'm sure the more junior mainline guys saw the benefit of controlling us. Post 9/11 there is still the need for control but there is also a need for jobs.
So, and this is my opinion, AMR sees an opportunity for concessions from one of its largest labor groups and says you give us scope relief and you've got 2000 Eagle CA vacancies. APA bought off on it and granted the relief but they didn't get all the vacancies because an arbitrator said it was contrary to the contract. So you've got APA mad at Eagle because we didn't give them the vacancies. You've got Eagle pilots mad at APA and the company. Who wins, AMR.

Ending the whipsaw would be great for both pilot groups but not for AMR. AMR used to pit the baby Eagles(prior to the 97 merge) against each other in the same way.

I thought "FightTheFuture" was a battlecry to save our profession.

Ahh...no, just a username I thought of.

.....it may hurt in the shorterm but our elders at these mainlines are trying to preserve the profession with scopes to keep mangements from doing this.. Meanwhile here we go dragging ourselves into court where they rule that Scopes are illegal.. and what have we done.. we have cut off the nose to spite our face.. and months later we see big bad Eagle (now being played by APA) up against some small and up and coming who is touting to AMR that they can do the same job as you guys for less.. and they mail off a letter stating this to your management. AMR likes what they see and says "lets get in bed" b/c since the pilots in their bickering have ruined scopes there is nothing that prevent them from using the new guys. and down and down and on it goes..

Remember though, APA gave huge scope concessions without Eagle counsel. They also agreed to huge pay cuts and work rule changes.
http://www.apapdp.org/apa.contract.analysis.ca.pay.rates.php
That doesn't seem like preserving the profession to me. They are still furloughing too.

... BUT HOW??? Maybe if AMR spent less time keeping you succesfully at eachothers throat some real progress would get made at the carrier that spends the most money in its operation that is not directly related to the revenue stream..

Its not in AMRs best interest for all of its labor groups to be in one accord. They want us at odds so they can garner concessions. I wish it was not so.

 

[FO 4 Life]

The Eagle MEC offered a pay scale for 100 seat jets for one reason. To try and prevent them from going off AMR property to CHA or TSA. AA furloughed guys, sorry, but the APA gave up unlimited domestic codeshare as part of the concession package. Mainline plane or not, we're trying to at least keep it here. That is the only reason, so quit with all this race to the bottom, trying to take jobs BS! Read your own contract.

 

[resistance]

Too all you "professional" APA pilots:

If you think our MEC is taking your jobs than why did 70% of you guys sign away your rights and PAY to AMR?!?!

Congratulations you are now the lowest paid pilots in the industry! America West 10yr 757 driver makes more bling-bling than your "best pilots in the country".

Why in the world would you give up Scope provisions in your contract?? APA high command sold your souls to AMR and you blame our Eagle MEC....what a joke. You guys remind me of people that always blame other people for their screw ups.

God bless the Delta and Comair MEC's for holding the line with management. They deserve the respect of our pilot group.