Larger aircraft for Eagle?

[InclusiveScope]

Inclusivescope,

Is this coming from someone who doesn't think he/she will ever make it to a major? That could easily cloud your vision and give you the "give me it---it should be mine" attitude. I can't believe that you guys can't see that the 100 seater should be mainline--since it will be repalacing a mainline aircraft directly--the 737-200. We have well over 1000 pilots on the street, and you guys want to expand more at their expense. Amazing. If the aircraft were not a 737, the rates would probably be a lot lower anyways, and the economics could be worked out. Management is trying to take advantage of this down time by seeing how low everyone can get---and I bet you guys have already given offers. Dalpa will not give that up.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Is this coming from someone who doesn't think he/she will ever make it to a major?

No this is coming from someone who ALREADY works for a major. ASA, CMR, EXJ, and EGL are already majors because they have over 1 billion dollars in revenue.

I can't believe that you guys can't see that the 100 seater should be mainline--since it will be repalacing a mainline aircraft directly--the 737-200.

I can't believe that you can't see that it shouldn't matter how many seats an aircraft has. The E110s and Metros should have been "mainline". Why should there be a dividing line? Why should there be a difference?

We have well over 1000 pilots on the street, and you guys want to expand more at their expense.

Yes you do General. If your MEC had insisted on a single list, those pilots would have jobs. They didn't , so take it up with your MEC, not with me!

Inclusivescope

 

[InclusiveScope]

Boo who Boo who Boo who Boo who Boo who Boo who Boo who

We should all feel so sorry for that select group of Comair guys, I get so tired of hearing that RJDC crap on the ALPA board now we have to listen to it here. Look Surplus1, I understand you work for a decent regional, but for most of us the goal is the majors for pay, schedules and retirement.

SO AS LONG AS THERE ARE MORE AIRCRAFT AT THE MAJORS THE MORE OF US HAVE A CHANCE TO REACH THAT GOAL.

Doesn't American already have 100 seaters in the F100's. Just because Eagle flys EMB a/c doesn't mean all EMB flying should be done by Eagle. It has historically been mainline flying and for the good of our profession we should keep it that way. If I didn't know any better I would think all the RJDC people were working for management. You guys are like a plague, please stay away.

We should all feel so sorry for that select group of Comair guys, I get so tired of hearing that RJDC crap on the ALPA board now we have to listen to it here.

Redtail,
You don't have to listen to anything - you are free to ignore anything and stick your head back in the sand where it has been along with ALPAs.

Look Surplus1, I understand you work for a decent regional, but for most of us the goal is the majors for pay, schedules and retirement.

Redtail, shouldn't the goal be for "pay, schedules and retirement" PERIOD, regardless of the size of aircraft? Why just for those at the "mainline"?

SO AS LONG AS THERE ARE MORE AIRCRAFT AT THE MAJORS THE MORE OF US HAVE A CHANCE TO REACH THAT GOAL.

Redtail, how about we start acting like a UNION and bring that GOAL to ALL, not just those that are anointed as "mainline" pilots!

If I didn't know any better I would think all the RJDC people were working for management.

If I didn't know any better, I would think that ALPA works for management. Who in their right mind would give management the option of allowing different pilot groups, represented by the same union, the option of bidding on flying. ALPA did.

Inclusivescope

 

[General Lee]

Inclusivescope,

ALPA's definition of a Major on their website does state that a "Major" carrier makes over $1 billion, and has aircraft with 100 seats or more. You did make the first one, though. The one list idea was a good one too---but the senior Comair and ASA pilots wanted DOH or a certain ratio---which would NEVER happen. They just didn't want to be FO's---that is the truth. Can you see Dan Ford being my FO someday? That would be great. He would have to "drip stick the gas tanks" on every leg. Oh, let me guess? That is why he wouldn't want to be a Delta FO-----it wouldn't have been like that if he hadn't made such a fuss. And about the 1000 furloughs, you just like to continue to push that problem away---blame it on our MEC. Those guys aren't going anywhere---and they should be going back to cockpits sooner than later. But, you want ASA/Comair to take over the World---and take away higher paying jobs for good. That is what would happen. If you had your way----Mainline would have 200 777 pilots and that would be it, with every other Delta pilot your FO now on the RJ---or new 100 seater. Wrong. I would have it the other way---you guys getting hired at Delta and gaining better benefits, and better pay---moving up, not down when it comes to pay and benefits. You just can't seem to understand that.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[InclusiveScope]

General,
Where on the ALPA website is that definition of Major? The DOT uses only revenue, not size of aircraft. Does that mean that a Northwest DC9-10 is not a major? After all, it only has 78 seats.

Inclusivescope

 

[wil]

I would think that a 121 Airline Pilot would be enough. Dividing our pilot group based on aircraft size does nothing but enpower management. Can it be any clearer?
When ASA/Comair was bought we should have been integrated into one list. Allowing "Wholly Owned" subsidiaries has hurt us all and there are 1000 Delta furloughs while Chitauqua and Skywest grow in our hub. General, I want the furloughs back in the cockpit as well. I want Delta, ASA and Comair to band together and remember that we are in this together! If there was no contract flying there would be no furloughs! All the best- Wil (I hope there is a double-breasted jacket in my future!)

 

[General Lee]

Wil,

I hope there is one in your future too. You have the right attitude, and you are not selling out. You can see through his B.S. And, you can see that the senior guys are grabbing for things they should have gotten when they interviewed at a Major. Now, since they don't want to "play the game" and "go the traditional way" to larger aircraft, they instead want to take it away from people that went through the whole process, but were unfortunately furloughed and are on the street. They don't give a rat's a$$, and they forget that some of these furloughs probably came from Comair/ASA, and some probably paid some money (like everyone else) to help support the Comair guys in their TIME OF NEED. Now they are down on their luck, and some DCI pilots want to expand at their expense, even though those planes would be REPLACING CURRENT MAINLINE aircraft. Not everybody here is a cocky military pilot who doesn't care about regional pilots. Most of the furloughs were guys/gals that worked hard in the regionals and took a paycut with first year pay to fly at Delta, and now most are watching from the sidelines. A lot of those senior guys just don't get it. It sounds like you do, and I hope you do succeed in getting what you want. It really is a great job.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[canadflyau]

I don't want to join the pissing contest but have observations...

First the flowthrough at AMR. If it was such a joke why the heck did it get signed by both sides, it wasn't a unilateral deal. The problem from what I undertand is the execution (correct me if I am wrong) as perscribed in the contact, b/c everyone thought... who would pass up an opportunity to fly for AA. The flowthough was not a joke, but as times have changed more mainline pilots have used it than Eagle pilots. When times were good they (AA) started right at the top of the list and sent down letters as perscribed in the agreement which they had X# of months to accept. Until such time as they accepted or turned it down they could not be passed over. The top of the Eagle list didn't want to take a pay cut and go back to the right seat... so they didn't respond and kept the "senior dog" schedule they were obviously enjoying. Again from what I understand the slots for the Eagle pilots were there and handed out to the letter of the law, but the top of the seniority list was uninterested and clogged up the flowthrough b/c AA had to wait the time perscribed before the could offer it to the next person. When I interviewed there, and talked with other pilots there everyone clearly understood the problem with the agreement wasn't the agreement but that it was going to be a "slow-through" for them to get to folks on the seniority list who wanted to partake..

Surplus, from your posts I bet you must hate paying your Union dues, and you did not accept the money that came in the mail... being a senior pilot and not having ever gained more of a focus than beyond yourself. Leaving a legacy in this profession is something I aim to do. I hope to leave this profession in a way so that if one of my one children were to choose this path I will feel I helped progress the profession and not aid in its demise. I hope where I fly for never proposes flying a jet.. I am just fine being prop trash with my first airline. Maybe the idea of instant gratification is carrying over to our work.. I may not be too off base, but I think my time to fly jets will come. Surplus, I couldn't agree with you more about ALPA:

those advocating that I yield for the good of the profession do not even acknoweldge that I am a member, and an equal member, of the profession.

that is a fair summary. I have been on the other end of the stick as U ended my career at a wholly owned. Yet I do not join your point of view. I feel the RJ must have snuck up on folks, or when discussed was laughed at as they cajoled "it will never work/last." So ALPA dropped the ball then. If they hadn't we could have enjoyed the massive hiring at the majors in the late 90's. We would be seeing AA making a massive recall, b/c all those fine folks would already be on that list. Yes, I agree with General Lee, a line has to be drawn by ALPA as painful as that may be for us. Hopefully they will start attacking the problem by only allowing the raising of the bar. If a "regional" is gonna fly big iron, they will pay and treat employees accordingly, only a unselfrespecting (if the word exists) person would disagree.. I do not want to watch the mainline jobs dry up. I want all those above me to start making those career moves, then I can move up one day and start driving for DAL, SWA, FEDEX.

 

[180ToTheMarker]

About 20 years ago, this guy named Lorenzo decimated the industry by tranferring aircraft (TXI-NY air), pitting pilots against pilots, and busting unions. Back then it was us against them, now some of our own are not only advocating this but are propositioning management to do it! Unbevielvable!!!

 

[B6Busdriver]

Guys like surplus will never get it. How much do you think the EMB190 will pay first,second or third year if flown at Eagle? Surplus doesn't care because he's at the top of the scale most likely so it only affects him in a positive manner. One hundred seat airplanes need to be flown on the mainline, period! Surplus looks at like this, a few more bucks an hour and I get to fly a bigger airplane. I've been on both sides of the fence on this issue and the grass is greener! Don't be bitter Surplus just send out those apps.

 

[FLB717]

Im starting to think pilots are all members of the incest club. Always trying to scr*w each other, even if thier in the same family. Mr. Lorenzo and Ichan would be proud. If only they had RJs back in the day. Ive said it once, twice one million times...one list for all flying done at a company.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

One hundred seat airplanes need to be flown on the mainline, period!



Uh, you better tell those pilots at Jetblue and Airtran that. I am sure they would agree.

It is people like you who "don't get it". Eagle, like Comair, are Airlines. Airlines who employ Airline Pilots to fly their airplanes. Like ANY OTHER AIRLINE PILOTS, we want our Airline to grow, and get bigger airplanes, for reasons I hope I don't have to explain to you.

DALPA and APA have made it clear that they want our groups to stay independent of each other respectively. For a pilot to get angry because a pilot group wants bigger and better airplanes is beyond me.
Oh yes, there is that "scope" thing. The tool one pilot group uses to control another pilot group with in the same airline. Well, we never agreed to it, were never ask our opinion, and had no representation when it was negotiated. So if we were not a party to it, and never agreed to it, I would say we have no obligation to abide by it.

I hope our MEC does the same thing here at Delta. It may prove to be what Delta needs to compete with JB and Atran.

 

[General Lee]

Afellowaviator,

There you go again. What you don't sem to understand is that those 100 seaters would replace 100 seaters (or our current 737-200 with 107 seats) at mainline. You trying to grab them to help boost your pay while guys get furloughed over here is downright a$$-holish. (I like that word---I made it up) Oh yeah, our MEC created that problem, just like he caused 9-11 too, right? You must think that you have NO CHANCE in getting a future interview down the line for Delta. People who feel that way need to try to get anything they can, even if it is screwing over Delta furloughs. Guys at Jetblue also DON'T want you to get those 100 seaters, because that would lower their pay too. (Neelman said he would pay them above the average---and if Eagle and DCI get them, the average would be a lot lower.....) But don't worry, you MAY get some more 70 seaters--maybe. If you want to fly some 100 seaters, Jetblue is hiring---go for it.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[B6Busdriver]

AFELLOWAVIATOR SAID:
Uh, you better tell those pilots at Jetblue and Airtran that. I am sure they would agree.

I say:
Tell them what? At jetBlue we WILL be flying the 100 seat aircraft.

As far as getting it, I'd be happy to compare backrounds and see who really gets it. I've done the regional thing and left for greener pastures. I've heard the tired old arguments of staying put; I can't afford to leave, don't want to give up the good schedule,etc,etc. Some jobs will only pay so much, flying for a regional long term has and most likely will never be lucrative. Those are facts and yes I think it sucks. Yes everyone at the regional level is grossly underpaid but that's the way it is.

Scope is and has never been about controling another pilot group, it's about keeping jobs at the mainline. Management at Delta signed a contract that has scope language that they are legally bound to. It really doesn't matter one bit what you agreed to or not. Those are facts not opinons.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Like I said, we are an airline and we want the biggest and best airplanes we can get. Your airline once flew small air frames, as we do, and grew. We want the same.

As far as JB, I interviewed during our strike, and was offered a job. Since it meant either commuting again or moving to NY, my wife and I decided not to do it.

You people are so wrapped up with yourselves, you can't see the forest from the trees.

We are an airline and want the biggest and best airplanes we can get. We are no diff. than any other airline pilot group out there. As I sad, I hope our MEC does the same and offers to fly the E190. It would be a fantastic business decision for OUR AIRLINE!!!!!

 

[FLB717]

OK, One million + 1 more time. ONE LIST SOLVES ALL PROBLEMS. ok back to my hole.

 

[General Lee]

B6Busdriver,

Can you believe that guy? And, why didn't he move to NY and take your job? He could have been off reserve by now and probably a Capt on the Bus---and moved back to CVG probably.
What else does he want at HIS AIRLINE? He also wants 747s--to fly to South Bend, and he wants Delta pilots to kiss his boots. Whatever.

Afellowaviator,

Your lack of judgement is obvious. Obviously you knew about moving to NY and the ramifications involved if you interviewed there. Then you turned it down...........Did you think they were going to open a CVG base? Why did you even send in an app? Why do you think YOUR AIRLINE deserves the 100 seater when it is replacing a MAINLINE 100 SEATER? YOUR AIRLINE IS OWNED BY MY AIRLINE. (Not me---Delta owns Comair) Would you undercut us in a bidding war? You would? Don't you think that since it is a new aircraft (most likely), it would have a much lower payscale compared to the 737-200? It would. That would equal pretty large savings to Delta, but you think YOUR AIRLINE should have them instead, even with 1060 of our guys on the street. Hmmmmmmm. Nice.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

AFELLOWAVIATOR SAID:
Uh, you better tell those pilots at Jetblue and Airtran that. I am sure they would agree.

I say:
At jetBlue we WILL be flying the 100 seat aircraft.

Gen Lee says they should only be flown at "MAINLINE". Hey Gen, these JB pilots are going to be flying them at a deeply DISCOUNTED rate!
Are you not going to gripe about that? If it were not for them some of you furloughed pilots would have jobs. Just think about the passengers they have taken from Delta.

You see how rediculous your arguments are? You say scope is not MEANT to control our pilot group, but it does. Because of your scope, our airline can't even go bid on other flying. Yes, it is controlling and bad for Delta. You dinosaur pilot groups are the problem. The company owns two other airlines, and cannot deploy the right size airplane to the markets. They are bleeding money because of you guys. You will never admit it, but it's true. Times are a changing, and if Delta is not allowed to change with it, it will surely die .

 

[General Lee]

Afellowaviator,

Ok, what? Our rates on the 100 seater would be a lot lower that current payscales if it wasn't a Boeing----and according to our contract it would have to be compared to the same type at another airline. Since Jetblue pilots would fly them(let's say we get the EMB-190), then we would compare ours to their rates. Guess what? Our rates would go down, and we would be competitive. You just lost your argument on that one. If we get the A318, then they would be compared to Frontier and or United's new rates. Get it?

Talk about old dinosaur, you seem to be one. You think that you deserve 100 seaters---primarily because you know Delta won't hire you eventually and you won't see one. You should have taken that Jetblue job----you must be hitting yourself in the head each night.....

And guess what? Delta could easily choose more 70 seaters to "right size the markets", as long as they put some Delta furloughs in them-----and they know that. Hey, Dalpa would probably agree to your payscales too----and that wouldn't be undercutting you, would it???? Let's do it now---let's agree to our furloughs getting all of the new 70 seaters---that way, we know we could right size those markets and that would make you happy. Right? In reality, you just want growth--regardless of who it hurts. And, we were profitable two of the three Summer months, and will be again in the Winter and Spring. And we are "bleeding" from debt payments, and a lot of that debt this year is because of you guys. How many more RJs are we getting? Oh yeah, passengers love flying in those on flights over two hours.......

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[NYRANGERS]

Like I said, we are an airline and we want the biggest and best airplanes we can get. Your airline once flew small air frames, as we do, and grew. We want the same.

As far as JB, I interviewed during our strike, and was offered a job. Since it meant either commuting again or moving to NY, my wife and I decided not to do it.

You people are so wrapped up with yourselves, you can't see the forest from the trees.

We are an airline and want the biggest and best airplanes we can get. We are no diff. than any other airline pilot group out there. As I sad, I hope our MEC does the same and offers to fly the E190. It would be a fantastic business decision for OUR AIRLINE!!!!!

You guys are up in arms every time we mention trying to get some of us furloughed guys employment at comair.

Now you want us to admire you for trying to take the rest of our planes. For right now our "100" seater is the 737-200. Go ahead and try to encourage your mec to put in a bid for it. Just don't be surprised if you don't like what our MEC does to counter.

We will not give up anymore aircraft. All you may succeed in doing is getting us a lower pay rate for our jets. We won't forget.

 

[General Lee]

No we won't. Your MEC members are really hurting your career plans, not helping them. Think about it.

Bye Bye--General Lee