Larger aircraft for Eagle?

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

One hundred seat airplanes need to be flown on the mainline, period!



Uh, you better tell those pilots at Jetblue and Airtran that. I am sure they would agree.

It is people like you who "don't get it". Eagle, like Comair, are Airlines. Airlines who employ Airline Pilots to fly their airplanes. Like ANY OTHER AIRLINE PILOTS, we want our Airline to grow, and get bigger airplanes, for reasons I hope I don't have to explain to you.

DALPA and APA have made it clear that they want our groups to stay independent of each other respectively. For a pilot to get angry because a pilot group wants bigger and better airplanes is beyond me.
Oh yes, there is that "scope" thing. The tool one pilot group uses to control another pilot group with in the same airline. Well, we never agreed to it, were never ask our opinion, and had no representation when it was negotiated. So if we were not a party to it, and never agreed to it, I would say we have no obligation to abide by it.

I hope our MEC does the same thing here at Delta. It may prove to be what Delta needs to compete with JB and Atran.

 

[General Lee]

Afellowaviator,

There you go again. What you don't sem to understand is that those 100 seaters would replace 100 seaters (or our current 737-200 with 107 seats) at mainline. You trying to grab them to help boost your pay while guys get furloughed over here is downright a$$-holish. (I like that word---I made it up) Oh yeah, our MEC created that problem, just like he caused 9-11 too, right? You must think that you have NO CHANCE in getting a future interview down the line for Delta. People who feel that way need to try to get anything they can, even if it is screwing over Delta furloughs. Guys at Jetblue also DON'T want you to get those 100 seaters, because that would lower their pay too. (Neelman said he would pay them above the average---and if Eagle and DCI get them, the average would be a lot lower.....) But don't worry, you MAY get some more 70 seaters--maybe. If you want to fly some 100 seaters, Jetblue is hiring---go for it.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[B6Busdriver]

AFELLOWAVIATOR SAID:
Uh, you better tell those pilots at Jetblue and Airtran that. I am sure they would agree.

I say:
Tell them what? At jetBlue we WILL be flying the 100 seat aircraft.

As far as getting it, I'd be happy to compare backrounds and see who really gets it. I've done the regional thing and left for greener pastures. I've heard the tired old arguments of staying put; I can't afford to leave, don't want to give up the good schedule,etc,etc. Some jobs will only pay so much, flying for a regional long term has and most likely will never be lucrative. Those are facts and yes I think it sucks. Yes everyone at the regional level is grossly underpaid but that's the way it is.

Scope is and has never been about controling another pilot group, it's about keeping jobs at the mainline. Management at Delta signed a contract that has scope language that they are legally bound to. It really doesn't matter one bit what you agreed to or not. Those are facts not opinons.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Like I said, we are an airline and we want the biggest and best airplanes we can get. Your airline once flew small air frames, as we do, and grew. We want the same.

As far as JB, I interviewed during our strike, and was offered a job. Since it meant either commuting again or moving to NY, my wife and I decided not to do it.

You people are so wrapped up with yourselves, you can't see the forest from the trees.

We are an airline and want the biggest and best airplanes we can get. We are no diff. than any other airline pilot group out there. As I sad, I hope our MEC does the same and offers to fly the E190. It would be a fantastic business decision for OUR AIRLINE!!!!!

 

[FLB717]

OK, One million + 1 more time. ONE LIST SOLVES ALL PROBLEMS. ok back to my hole.

 

[General Lee]

B6Busdriver,

Can you believe that guy? And, why didn't he move to NY and take your job? He could have been off reserve by now and probably a Capt on the Bus---and moved back to CVG probably.
What else does he want at HIS AIRLINE? He also wants 747s--to fly to South Bend, and he wants Delta pilots to kiss his boots. Whatever.

Afellowaviator,

Your lack of judgement is obvious. Obviously you knew about moving to NY and the ramifications involved if you interviewed there. Then you turned it down...........Did you think they were going to open a CVG base? Why did you even send in an app? Why do you think YOUR AIRLINE deserves the 100 seater when it is replacing a MAINLINE 100 SEATER? YOUR AIRLINE IS OWNED BY MY AIRLINE. (Not me---Delta owns Comair) Would you undercut us in a bidding war? You would? Don't you think that since it is a new aircraft (most likely), it would have a much lower payscale compared to the 737-200? It would. That would equal pretty large savings to Delta, but you think YOUR AIRLINE should have them instead, even with 1060 of our guys on the street. Hmmmmmmm. Nice.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

AFELLOWAVIATOR SAID:
Uh, you better tell those pilots at Jetblue and Airtran that. I am sure they would agree.

I say:
At jetBlue we WILL be flying the 100 seat aircraft.

Gen Lee says they should only be flown at "MAINLINE". Hey Gen, these JB pilots are going to be flying them at a deeply DISCOUNTED rate!
Are you not going to gripe about that? If it were not for them some of you furloughed pilots would have jobs. Just think about the passengers they have taken from Delta.

You see how rediculous your arguments are? You say scope is not MEANT to control our pilot group, but it does. Because of your scope, our airline can't even go bid on other flying. Yes, it is controlling and bad for Delta. You dinosaur pilot groups are the problem. The company owns two other airlines, and cannot deploy the right size airplane to the markets. They are bleeding money because of you guys. You will never admit it, but it's true. Times are a changing, and if Delta is not allowed to change with it, it will surely die .

 

[General Lee]

Afellowaviator,

Ok, what? Our rates on the 100 seater would be a lot lower that current payscales if it wasn't a Boeing----and according to our contract it would have to be compared to the same type at another airline. Since Jetblue pilots would fly them(let's say we get the EMB-190), then we would compare ours to their rates. Guess what? Our rates would go down, and we would be competitive. You just lost your argument on that one. If we get the A318, then they would be compared to Frontier and or United's new rates. Get it?

Talk about old dinosaur, you seem to be one. You think that you deserve 100 seaters---primarily because you know Delta won't hire you eventually and you won't see one. You should have taken that Jetblue job----you must be hitting yourself in the head each night.....

And guess what? Delta could easily choose more 70 seaters to "right size the markets", as long as they put some Delta furloughs in them-----and they know that. Hey, Dalpa would probably agree to your payscales too----and that wouldn't be undercutting you, would it???? Let's do it now---let's agree to our furloughs getting all of the new 70 seaters---that way, we know we could right size those markets and that would make you happy. Right? In reality, you just want growth--regardless of who it hurts. And, we were profitable two of the three Summer months, and will be again in the Winter and Spring. And we are "bleeding" from debt payments, and a lot of that debt this year is because of you guys. How many more RJs are we getting? Oh yeah, passengers love flying in those on flights over two hours.......

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[NYRANGERS]

Like I said, we are an airline and we want the biggest and best airplanes we can get. Your airline once flew small air frames, as we do, and grew. We want the same.

As far as JB, I interviewed during our strike, and was offered a job. Since it meant either commuting again or moving to NY, my wife and I decided not to do it.

You people are so wrapped up with yourselves, you can't see the forest from the trees.

We are an airline and want the biggest and best airplanes we can get. We are no diff. than any other airline pilot group out there. As I sad, I hope our MEC does the same and offers to fly the E190. It would be a fantastic business decision for OUR AIRLINE!!!!!

You guys are up in arms every time we mention trying to get some of us furloughed guys employment at comair.

Now you want us to admire you for trying to take the rest of our planes. For right now our "100" seater is the 737-200. Go ahead and try to encourage your mec to put in a bid for it. Just don't be surprised if you don't like what our MEC does to counter.

We will not give up anymore aircraft. All you may succeed in doing is getting us a lower pay rate for our jets. We won't forget.

 

[General Lee]

No we won't. Your MEC members are really hurting your career plans, not helping them. Think about it.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[P38JLightning]

DCI's "upcoming" 100 seater "windfall"

"No we won't. Your MEC members are really hurting your career plans, not helping them. Think about it."

Bye Bye--General Lee


There is no way the Comair MEC is hurting the career plans of ANYONE who would support the blatent gutting of another carrier's existing contract, because anyone who wants to go down that path wouldn't accept a new hire Delta (or anywhere else, probably) job if you handed it to them on a silver platter.

You know, don't want to "start over" or give up seniority, go on reserve, commute or *gasp!* be just a 3 striper doing walk arounds in the snow, especially if it meant a first year pay cut (which in most cases it would). So the folks who truly believe in this "brave new world" of 100 seaters at Comair (if indeed there are any) are either harmless wishful thinkers (heck, maybe we'll get the retired COncords too! Wheeeee!) or they're intent on gutting the Delta scope clause for even the SMALLEST potential gain for themselves (see below.) They therefore have zero interest in going to Delta, so the fall out the junior Comair pilots may have to endure in the future is, for them, just icing on the cake. T

hey never liked to see a junior punk at "their" airline go to Delta in the first place, so if the byproduct of their scope gutting or seniority stealing efforts is a junior Comair pilot blackball, well, that's just gravy.

Now, let's see just how green that grass is, assuming we can just steal (and yes, that's what it would be) some Delta 100 seaters:

The 70 seater is 40% bigger than the 50 seater, and for that it pays a whopping premium of 6% to 10%.

Now I realize pay rates at airlines with multipile sizes of A/C aren't always strictly linear, but I'm sure the following projections may be a percent off (either way) but you get the point:

The 90 seater has 28% more seats than the 70. Ergo a whopping 7% pay raise. The 100 Seater has about 40% more seats than the 70, so we're back to a whole 10% raise.

Now don't get me wrong, a raise is always nice, but is 7-10% over what you're making now really enough to justify the illegalization of scope OR the gutting of someone else's contract? Is that truly "what we're worth"? What happened to that whole "parity on scale" talk a couple years ago? Come on, please tell me that you:
1. Voted NO on our current contract thinking we were going to get 150 an hour to fly the 50 seater because that's "what we're worth" but yet:
2. You'll forget all about that if someone throws 7 to 10% your way.

And don't forget those massive pay rates would still be 20% (or more) above what SkyWest, Chatauqua, Mesa and others would lovingly fly a shiny new DCI jet (of ANY size) for, especially if it had some "pimped out avionics," which it probably would.

Nope, this Comair pilot will put voting NO on any 100 seater fantasy pay rate offer almost as high on my to-do list as opting out of the RJDC's windfall seniority grab lawsuit.

Gee Mr. PID information man, I've been at Comair for 10 years but have a class date at Delta in a few months. Should I stay or should I go?

Well that all depends little fella. We're all the same company right now, so ALPA must merge us all. Typically in a merger you get something BETWEEN a staple and DOH, so in that case you'd be better off not going DIRECTLY to Delta, for you'd lose seniority because you went to a "different" Company.

But I thought you just said it was the same company?

Um, yeah, um, go away kid, ya bother me.

 

[embraerjetpilot]

Ok, so next thing you Eagle guys will know, the American Guys will be claiming your stealing their flying, and they will be giving you the finger everywhere you go, be stealing stuff off their airplanes, and be totally unprofessional on the radio to you.. Serves you right..thats how you treat everyone else.

 

[eaglefly]

Interesting discussion. Purely philisophical and frequently misguided.

We as pilots can all bicker back and forth as to what we believe SHOULD be done on principle.

Unfortunately (for this industry and profession) it's too late. Economic reality has and will continue to morph the airline industry and pilot profession based on pure profit as management wants it.

Breath deep and look at the last ten years :

- Introduction of THOUSANDS of RJ's that have gradually replaced more expensive mainline aircraft (not pilots idea but manufacturers responding to managements desire to have the ability to provide air service PROFITABLY).

- Faliure of pilot unions to see this and act to INCLUDE their affiliated pilot groups, instead promoting a "caste" system of have's and have not's by fencing themselves from their affiliated pilot groups.

It didn't work.

Now it's too late.

The horse has not only left the barn, but has hopped the fence and bounded well away from the corral.

As for AA/Eagle :

We at Eagle, went proactive on the RJ issue. We held out an olive branch to Capt. Darrah and the APA, who incidentally have crapped on us since the beginning of American Eagle's inception but in the best interests of BOTH parties we took a chance and did it anyway.

Did they flip us the bird ?

Nope.

They did something even worse.

They represented to us AND THE PUBLIC that our interests were cohesive and parallel. Then, WHILE they were doing that they sharpened the base end of that branch and jammed it in our backs while we were looking the other way.

The APA creatively concoted absurd interpretations of Suppliment W/Letter 3 to allow them to forceably seize ALL future Jet Captains seats at our airline completely outside of clear contractual language.

What did a NEUTRAL arbitrator say about this ?

Exactly what we said - It's bulls&%t and you can't do it.

Now they're trying "plan B" to accomplish close to the same thing.

Who is allowing the APA to take so much line ?

AMR.

Why ?

Because it's in their CURRENT best interest (based SOLELY on economics).

When it comes to 70-90 seat RJ's (which by the way are CURRENTLY operated by regionals such as Air Wisconsin, Mesaba, Comair, Mesa, Eagle and Horizon), ECONOMICS will rule the day.

Will Eagle actually get 90-seaters ?

Look at it from the standpoint of Airline managers who all act surprisingly predictably. The TRUE profit base of the 90-seat RJ lies in the ability to operate it at a regional cost structure. Its performance economcs alone are not enough (for airline managers anyway) to see it as worthwhile when more frequency with 50-seaters will do.

That means pay rates AND WORK RULES that are competetive with initial operators of this equipment.

You can look at what Air Willy and Mesaba are flying their Larger RJ's at, but unfortunately their is one operator who is setting the benchmark for the 90-seater simply because they are there first with the new generation of 90-seaters.

Mesa and "Johnny smooth talk".

The BIGGEST obstacle to 90-seaters at mainline is the P word.

Pension.

Once you throw that into pilot costs you're uncompetitve with the competition. Don't forget mainline F/A's Gate Agents, Mechanics and Rampers.

Eagle may not get 90-seaters, but AA will not see them unless they agree to U's Mid-Atlantic cost structure (minus pilot pensions) AT THE VERY LEAST.

Make no mistake, 90-seaters are coming and they will NOT be operated at mainline cost structures, regardless of all the tantrum throwing by pilots.

We all don't like that idea, but just like the dentist, at this point it is an unavoidable reality.

This Letter from our MEC may not produce any 90-seaters for Eagle, but will give something for management to leverage against mainline if they want them.

We tried our best to work with the APA but after their current behavior and actions we now have no alternative but to compete with them. In fact, historically we've been very passive compared to other regional pilot groups about the RJ issue with mainline pilots we're affiliated with.

We did not design the rule book, the APA did. We understand the "rules" now and have decided to play by them. Our MEC will act in the best interests of it's pilots period. We're not looking to "feed" other carriers but we would like to fly larger A/C that are operated by numerous other regionals already and do so independant of AA.

Our CBA requires that should a new A/C be acquired that the parties would meet to negotiate a pay rate and if not successful than an arbitrator would decide. Based on current rates we would be looking at $7-10/hr. above current 70-seat rates for captains, perhaps $5/hr. for F/O's.

The average captain would be about $95-100/hr. depending on seniority, ($93,600/yr. @ 80 hrs./month). The average F/O would be about $40/hr. ($38,400/yr. @ 80 hrs./month). Rough estimates only, but are in the reasonable ball park of some current LCC's. With extra flying and perdiem most Captains will be over $100K/yr. and F/O's in the mid-upper $40K range. Yes, nowhere near mainline but mainline will not see any aircraft under 100 seats.

I'm curious to see why no one is villianizing Frontier for flying 737's at their rates ? I'll bet most regional pilots (F/O's especially) and mainline furloughees would happily go to 737 class at Frontier.

Anyway, as a side note, several sources say an Eagle spinoff is likely in the near future. Depending on how this would be completed, the primary focus of Eagle would still be to serve AMR under existing limits. But new oppotunites to support an infrastructure as a stand alone low cost carrier to compete with LCC's would be possible and with Eagle's labor stability (the F/A's being an exeption in the near future) and cost structure, it is a highly desirable possibilty from an airline management economic and competetive standpoint.

The idustry has changed a lot in the last 10 years AND WILL CONTINUE to change to an even greater degree in the next ten - and not for the better when it comes to pilot pay and benefits.

ALPA national squandered the opportunity to build a unified and cohesive pilot group when they miscalculated the impact of the RJ ten years ago (The Delta situation shows the desperation to cling to a losing philosophy).

The APA squndered it's opportunity at AMR to do the same thing just a few short months ago (especially bad, whan they had all that history to learn from).

It's way too late now to stop what is happening now.

What will happen, will happen.

- Canada, your statements about the problems of the flow-thru are not the real problem. That agreement is a perfect example of what happens when ambiguaous language is accepted by pilot groups - Management will exploit it one way when it needs it and another way when it doesn't.

 

[General Lee]

Eaglefly,

Our EX-CEO Ron Allen apparently said the same thing in 1992--"The industry has changed forever." It got a lot better 4 years later. We really don't know what will happen---and it will be interesting to watch---no doubt.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[surplus1]

Eaglefly,

Nice post. I'm happy to see that in all the emotional BS that followed my comments (which I fully expected), you have not lost the big picture.

A Pandora's Box has been opened by ALPA first and the APA second, i.e., mainline pilots. The consequences are now coming home to roost on the properties of the originators of predatory policy, predatory scope and predatory bargaining, and they don't like it. It is of their own making but they will not acknowledge that ever and, as you point out, it may be too late already for management has recognized and adopted thier own cut throat methods and are using them against us all.

It happens that I personally actually believe that the EMB-190 or similar size aircraft have traditionally been "mainline" equipment and should continue to be. I have stated that before in these forums. However, and this is critical, I also believe that aircraft with less than 100 seats should be operated by the non-mainline carriers.

Mainline pilots like the General and his peers rush to the defense of the mainline (as expected) as soon as someone (in this case the EGL MEC) suggests that an EMB190 could be operated more profitably at Eagle than it could at American (which is factual). They feel threatened by that prospect and will advance any idea, no matter how absurd, in an effort to prevent it.

What is ironic is that these very same pilots have no problem with efforts by AA to remove the CRJ-700 from the Eagle pilots. They have no problem with the efforts of AA to replace ALL jet Captain positions at Eagle with furloughed junior pilots from AA. They have no problem with the fact that the AA pilots' contract includes a provision that allows the APA to take ALL the 70-seaters from Eagle by underbidding the Eagle cost structure, and they will still keep the other 50-seat (or less) Captain positions that they can take from Eagle pilots.

They have no problem with pilots from AAA creating super seniority for themselves and demanding 50% of the Captain seats at PSA, ALG, PDT, Mesa, TSA, Midway and CHQ (in 50-seat equipment). They have no problem with furloughed AAA pilots being paid more than senior (to them) FO's at those same airlines. They have no problem with the creation of Mid Atlantic __ for the specific purpose of excluding pilots from PSA, ALG and PDT from the 70-seat aircraft that might be operated by USAir Group.

Over at Delta they have no problem with efforts by their MEC to prevent Comair and ASA from operating ANY CRJ-700's. When that effort failed (thanks to the Company), they had no problem with limiting the CRJ-700 to a total of 57. Further, they had no problem with making the 57 distributed among ALL DCI operators (instead of CMR/ASA who ordered the aircraft), thus providing the Company with the opportunity to play the DCI carriers against each other.

They have no probem with openly advocating that the CRJ-700 should be flown at the mainline. They have implied and openly stated, that it would be "cheaper" because their pilots are more junior than the CMR/ASA pilots that now fly those aircraft, and therefore, they would be at the bottom of the CMR pay scale and fly for less than current senior CMR/ASA pilots. In other words, a backdoor method to undercut and underbid the ASA/CMR pilots currently flying those aircraft.

They have no problem with repeatedly stating that those 70-seat jets should be flown by their furloughed pilots, instead of the currently employed pilots that now fly them at CMR/ASA.

They are currently implying and trying, if you read the General's statements, that

Delta could easily choose more 70 seaters to "right size the markets", as long as they put some Delta furloughs in them-----and they know that. Hey, Dalpa would probably agree to your payscales too----and that wouldn't be undercutting you, would it???? Let's do it now---let's agree to our furloughs getting all of the new 70 seaters---

thus transferring the promotion opportunities of CMR/ASA pilots to the CRJ-700 to Delta pilots. Give that flying to their furloughed pilots __ little different from what AA is trying to do at Eagle and what AAA has done over there. Delta's version of "jets for jobs". This is not the first time that such statements have been made and the General is not the only one making them. If I were a fly on the wall of the Delta MEC, I would undoubtedly hear the same offer being made to Delta management behind closed doors.

There is no doubt whatever in my mind that the Delta pilots would do to Comair and ASA exactly what the AA pilots are doing to Eagle, if they could only get Delta management to agree to it. They would happily place all 1000 of thier furloughed pilots into the Captain seats at CMR and ASA without a second thought. How many CMR/ASA pilots might be displaced is of no concern to them, just as it is of no concern to AA pilots displacing Eagle Captains.

They have a right to feel threatened if you suggest that you might fly the EMB-190. We have no right to feel threatened when they actively take the CRJ-700 or displace all RJ Captains. WE regional pilots should accept that they are in control and whatever they decide to do must be accepted in silence. GARBAGE!

Their intent is clear and the only one's fooled by their rhetoric are the young and naive among us. In exchange for taking what is ours they offer the possibility that we just might be hired by them at some unknown time in the unknown future. A possibility that exists anyway, regardless of what they do.

Even more interesting is the fact that the labor union that allegedly represents Comair and ASA pilots would not lift a finger to prevent that. On the contrary ALPA would support it. Just as it has openly done at USAirways and, I believe, may be clandestinely doing at Eagle in support of the APA. That "union" and its President would sell out the CMR/ASA pilots in favor of the Delta pilots without batting an eye. There is only ONE thing preventing that at this time and we know what that is: A lawsuit filed by CMR and ASA pilots against the union.

The President of ALPA has repeatedly stated, in public, that regional pilots should not fly aircraft larger than 50-seats. Even that is a scam, given the fact that his own airline (NWA) has contract language that limits Mesaba and PCL jets to less than 50 seats.

When the union could not prevent some regionals from exceeding the 50-seat limit, it found other ways to populate the cockpits of the larger RJs with mainline pilots. If they (the mainline pilots) could not fly these 70-90 seat aircraft in their own airlines, then by God they would fly them in our airlines and if necessary, displace as many of us as they could. ALPA has done and is doing everything in its power to keep regional pilots from operating aircraft with more than 50-seats, even though ALPA allegedly represents the interests of those regional pilots. Only the blind can fail to see that. It is not my imagination, it is happening before our very eyes.

Meanwhile the snake oil merchants in Washington continue to smooth talk and pull the wool over the eyes of as many naive regional pilots as they can. Let us not forget that every last one of those snake oil merchants just happens to be a "mainline" pilot. The recent "performance" of the ALPA President before Comair pilots, speaks for itself. No doubt he believes that CMR pilots "swallowed" his BS, but I think he was wrong. He should have known that if you don't suck to begin with, then it follows you don't swallow either. We do have some "suckers" at CMR, but thank God its a dam*ed small minority.

Given all of that, which is not my opinion but recorded history and publicly uttered facts, the "mainliners" are up in arms at the mere suggestion that a regional pilot group, protecting the interests of its own pilots, would have the nerve to counter their efforts to take from the regionals what they already have with a duplicate effort that, no matter how remote, might take from them what they do not now have.

How dare us be bold enough to suggest that we might return a dose of their own medicine! Surely we are the scum of the earth if we do not allow them to take whatever they might want of whatever we may have and remain silent. There is no name nasty enough to call those of us who resist them or dare to challenge their predatory behavior with some of our own.

It is sad indeed that we have come to this but it should be remembered that the attacks were launched by organized mainline pilots against organized regional pilots, and notwithstanding that the "organization", ALPA, represents both, it has done nothing to protect the interest and welfare of the "reginal minority" from the mainline predators.

When attacked, the right to self-defense is well established. If they do not stop their continued attacks I'm afraid we are in for one he!! of a war. It will not be good for any of us, but it is still better than throwing in the towel and just letting them do with us whatever they please. It is better to go down fighting for what is ours, than to cower in a corner and permit ourselves to be abused.

The bottom line is these mainline folks (not all, but those that shower us with rhetoric of our wrong doing) are hypocrites. They live by a double standard. One that allows them to do as they please, but condems us for copying their own behavior in our own defense. Everything is "right" and in the interest of "the profession" when they do it. The same thing is wrong and will destroy the profession if we do it. Hypocracy at its finest.

It is time they realize that what is "sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander". You reap what you sow. Either they back off or they will get in return exacly what they give. Should that happen, it will be their just deserts.